Post match Discussion "Fire away"

[RalphiusMaximus 6,102]

One aspect of this game that I found interesting was the ease with which they dominated us in the centre.  They were reading Gawn's taps, smothering our clearance players and easily taking the ball away.  You'd almost think they had a guy who was heavily involved in building and coaching our centre square work the last few years over there.  While I was surprised Jamar didn't play, he clearly had a big influence on the tactics they used to beat us there. 

 

[Vipercrunch 2,847]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

As I've mentioned, I haven't seen the game and can't bring myself to, however...

We were in front with 10 minutes to go.  How does a team that has had over 100 possessions less and is being killed on the spread get back in front ?  I know Daniher kicked inaccurately, so I suppose that was partly it and perhaps they too butchered the ball, which in turn handed it back to us.

Yes we hit the front but my son and I had very little confidence we would hold the lead.  The players were just not in the right mindset all day.  They had kicked a run of goals to take the lead in Q2 and handed back momentum without a whimper and we both feared it would happen again.  My son and I felt we needed to get at least 2 more goals up before either of us would feel the game safe.  As I said in an earlier post, from looking at the warm-up, the players just did not look switched on.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

1 hour ago, Bossdog said:

Wow....after reading through this thread I think I will just go and slit my wrists now.

We are two games into a season.....Some posters are wanting to get rid of Hogan or drop him at least after a couple of off games....Really ?

Some saying Roos is the problem?     Can't remember him getting a kick or handball....Must go

Geelong were world beaters in round 1...........Couldn't back it up over the Suns the next week

West Coast the same.......Richmond the same.......Pt. Adelaide looked worse than us but same.

Freo can't win a game.   If you're 2% off then you will struggle but before we get the knives out in earnest.....How about we wait for a couple weeks and see how it all comes together.     We are 1 and 1 in a long season.

(Sharp knife put back in drawer)

 

Valid points.

Still can't over the fact that we lost to a side that was put together in the off season. All the teams you list above all lost to AFL quality sides, not some off season manufactured VFL side. This is my biggest issue. Happy to cope a lose on the way to success, but not to a top up team.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Devil is in the Detail

[Bossdog 2,002]

11 minutes ago, Devil is in the Detail said:

Valid points.

Still can't over the fact that we lost to a side that was put together in the off season. All the teams you list above all lost to AFL quality sides, not some off season manufactured VFL side. This is my biggest issue. Happy to cope a lose on the way to success, but not to a top up team.

They had only five "top up " players playing......Kelly (Good Footballer)..... Dea...Gwilt....Crowley and Stokes (all fair to good)

[RalphiusMaximus 6,102]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

As I've mentioned, I haven't seen the game and can't bring myself to, however...

We were in front with 10 minutes to go.  How does a team that has had over 100 possessions less and is being killed on the spread get back in front ?  I know Daniher kicked inaccurately, so I suppose that was partly it and perhaps they too butchered the ball, which in turn handed it back to us.

The massive disposal differential is because we conceded the midfield to them and flooded our defence.  Basically the moment we turned it over (which was frequently because of our terrible kicking) the entire team bar a couple of token small forwards dropped back and tried to hold them out of our defensive 50.  The Bombers were free to chip and share through the midfield until they saw an opening.  Not only was it terrible coaching, but it was terrible play because despite this tactic they still managed to take marks inside the 50. 

[old55 23,833]

I realised I didn't understand modern footy in R1 2007 - no coincidence that it was the first match Ross Lyon coached.  I probably didn't understand it for a while before that, but that is when the truth hit me.  I couldn't understand why or how we lost to St.Kilda after initially leading.

Saturday's debacle was either gameplan failure or gameplan implementation failure.  No big surprise that Roos likes explanation #2 better.  Players were "tired", "big-headed", "didn't come to play" and therefore failed to implement the gameplan.  That's better than "I'm out of touch".

On the day it looked like gameplan failure to me.

But I do know what I don't know and that is this: all players have specific roles and set positions in the structure for specific plays.  If even one player doesn't play their role or fulfill the structure then the whole plan will unravel.  So if we've got "tired players" who can't get to position or play their role then it's feasible that the disgraceful performance on Saturday could happen.  In hindsight, I'm hoping that is the explanation, because like for Roos, the alternative is unpalatable.

It IS hard to reconcile that the coaching group allowed this to persist all day - but I guess the players "were tired" all day.  I would have liked to see us try something different like go man-on-man when we were down by 100+ uncontested.  The Giants did that to us quite effectively after the first quarter last week.  I'm still at a loss to explain how we actually won that game.

Anyway the proof will out about whether it was gameplan failure or gameplan implementation failure over the coming weeks.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

22 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

They had only five "top up " players playing......Kelly (Good Footballer)..... Dea...Gwilt....Crowley and Stokes (all fair to good)

And the VFL fill-ins.

• Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti
• Orazio Fantasia
• Kyle Langford
• Matt Dea
• Michael Hartley
• Jackson Merrett
• Nick Kommer

[rjay 25,306]

47 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

One aspect of this game that I found interesting was the ease with which they dominated us in the centre.  They were reading Gawn's taps, smothering our clearance players and easily taking the ball away.  You'd almost think they had a guy who was heavily involved in building and coaching our centre square work the last few years over there.  While I was surprised Jamar didn't play, he clearly had a big influence on the tactics they used to beat us there. 

 

Not quite right 'Ralph', we won the centre clearances 13 to 8...

I think it's just when they got theirs they took much better advantage than we did.

[dazzledavey36 55,867]

Just now, Devil is in the Detail said:

And the VFL fill-ins.

• Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti
• Orazio Fantasia
• Kyle Langford
• Matt Dea
• Michael Hartley
• Jackson Merrett
• Nick Kommer

Fantasia, Langford, Merrett and Kommer were all National Draft picks.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

16 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Fantasia, Langford, Merrett and Kommer were all National Draft picks.

I know, but still only playing VFL?? Weren't in the Essendon side that beat Hawthorn last year.

[Redleg 41,942]

Well I should have calmed down now 3 days later, but am still very angry.

Poor coaching and weak effort by the players. Poor leadership as well. 

Inexplicable for people that want to succeed, or so we are told.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,102]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Not quite right 'Ralph', we won the centre clearances 13 to 8...

I think it's just when they got theirs they took much better advantage than we did.

But even when we were credited with the clearance it was under pressure and generally didn't result in possession for us.  More "hack it clear and hope a teammate gets it" than a clean win. 

[DeeZee 7,445]

I still feel like crap, which is unusual to last three days after a loss as we have had many, but somehow this was different,probably because it seemed to blow all credibility we worked so hard over the preseason and round one to achieve.

But also because I took my 14 year old son who comes to three or four games a year with me and hasn't seen a win in three years......just makes me angry.

Edited April 5, 2016 by DeeZee

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

8 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

I still feel like crap, which is unusual to last three days after a loss as we have had many, but somehow this was different,probably because it seemed to blow all credibility we worked so hard over the preseason and round one to achieve.

But also because I took my 14 year old son who comes to three or four games a year with me and hasn't seen a win in three years......just makes me angry.

I agree think it is different but at the same time im still hopefull that by the end of the year this will be one of only a few black marks in an otherwise positive season

[grazman 7,504]

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

But I do know what I don't know and that is this: all players have specific roles and set positions in the structure for specific plays.  If even one player doesn't play their role or fulfill the structure then the whole plan will unravel.  So if we've got "tired players" who can't get to position or play their role then it's feasible that the disgraceful performance on Saturday could happen.  In hindsight, I'm hoping that is the explanation, because like for Roos, the alternative is unpalatable.

Maybe It's me, but I can't remember Nathan Jones taking too many kick outs before.  He did on the weekend and I was ropable.  Kicked it to exactly the wrong option  (the short gimme in the pocket) - the end result was we turn the ball over from that play. Why on earth would he take the kick out - surely he is one of the players they want on the end of the kick out. To me that was as clear an indication as any that the wheels had well and truly fallen off the wagon.

Edited April 5, 2016 by grazman

[Deecisive 1,709]

43 minutes ago, grazman said:

Maybe It's me, but I can't remember Nathan Jones taking too many kick outs before.  He did on the weekend and I was ropable.  Kicked it to exactly the wrong option  (the short gimme in the pocket) - the end result was we turn the ball over from that play. Why on earth would he take the kick out - surely he is one of the players they want on the end of the kick out. To me that was as clear an indication as any that the wheels had well and truly fallen off the wagon.

We have missed dunns long booming kicks out of defense, and suffered in both matches due to poor turnovers from kick-ins that is not to say Dunn does not also have his moments, but he more often than not gets the ball beyond the 50 meter defensive circle near the boundary where we can get a throw in and reset.

[dee-luded 2,959]

10 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Thats why we have a coaching department. But its run by a consultant who says 'they' a lot. 

I was just being sarcastic Re this expectation of perfection from young players just starting out with Expectation on thy're shoulders.

And then some blame the coaches for not being somehow able to force a positive result?

 

Youngsters take time & we have a lot of them,  & we also now have a great coaching team,  & admin.

 

# having said that,  couldn't help to wonder if a debt was paid on the weekend ???

[jnrmac 20,276]

29 minutes ago, dee-luded said:

I was just being sarcastic Re this expectation of perfection from young players just starting out with Expectation on thy're shoulders.

And then some blame the coaches for not being somehow able to force a positive result?

 

Youngsters take time & we have a lot of them,  & we also now have a great coaching team,  & admin.

 

# having said that,  couldn't help to wonder if a debt was paid on the weekend ???

We also have poor leaders...

[dee-luded 2,959]

40 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We also have poor leaders...

I don't think that's the problem now,  it was,  but we've improved a hell of a lot since..   Dunn,  maybe not,  but I think we have a lot of top people who many started in our poor times.

I don't think NJones is a bad leader,  but he is in need of onfield support.  I just feel that if Jack Trengove stays fit,  he has matured enormously..  & I think he would help Jonsey & the side,  in a very big way.

... bringing more kids is counter to this argument,  so the likes of Lamumba & Garland are still important at this point.

I think now,  our trouble is we don't have enough of them, as Yet.   We have recruited them,  but they are just too young yet,  & are still getting used to the game,  & learning their games.

The next 18 months will show a lot, & we have many who will start to slot into being leaders.  (I have to say it again,  but we shot our best leader,  back in around 2009)  Jnr Mac.

Anyhow we have to keep on growing & developing the club & developing our kids.    And we have to keep bringing in maturity... 

Prestia,  if available, is a Must,  for this reason alone.  Let alone his ability in areas we need.

 

we also IMO need a 24 yr old medium defender.  any about other clubs? ...  and we really to to hook ourselves a gut-running winger !

 

[RalphiusMaximus 6,102]

13 minutes ago, dee-luded said:

I don't think NJones is a bad leader,  but he is in need of onfield support.

I'm kind of coming to the opinion that Nate Jones is our Richie Vandenberg.  He's the leader who shows how everyone needs to work and act around the club and leads through the bad times, but will he be good enough to hold his spot once things turn around and we start looking like a real finals contender?  For years I've maintained that he is drastically underrated and would walk into any midfield in the league, but lately I've been forced to wonder if that's really true. 

[jnrmac 20,276]

1 hour ago, dee-luded said:

I don't think that's the problem now,  it was,  but we've improved a hell of a lot since..   Dunn,  maybe not,  but I think we have a lot of top people who many started in our poor times.

I don't think NJones is a bad leader,  but he is in need of onfield support.  I just feel that if Jack Trengove stays fit,  he has matured enormously..  & I think he would help Jonsey & the side,  in a very big way.

... bringing more kids is counter to this argument,  so the likes of Lamumba & Garland are still important at this point.

I think now,  our trouble is we don't have enough of them, as Yet.   We have recruited them,  but they are just too young yet,  & are still getting used to the game,  & learning their games.

The next 18 months will show a lot, & we have many who will start to slot into being leaders.  (I have to say it again,  but we shot our best leader,  back in around 2009)  Jnr Mac.

Anyhow we have to keep on growing & developing the club & developing our kids.    And we have to keep bringing in maturity... 

Prestia,  if available, is a Must,  for this reason alone.  Let alone his ability in areas we need.

 

we also IMO need a 24 yr old medium defender.  any about other clubs? ...  and we really to to hook ourselves a gut-running winger !

 

'Leaders' such as Lumumba, Dawes, Garland and even Dunn have been a bitter disappointment in those roles. We don't have leaders who can demand the ball and change the course of a game a la Selwood, Hodge. Granted these guys are genuinely elite players but when we go missing like Saturday there is no-one to drag the players together and bang heads.

Yes, getting rid of Jnr was a mistake on a number of levels but even before that we had Yze, White, Robbo, Green and Bruce who weren't leaders bootlaces. Neitz was but they have been few and far between at the Dees, sadly.  

Actually Viney can often do that but he had a shocker on the weekend.

Edited April 5, 2016 by jnrmac

[jnrmac 20,276]

On 4/2/2016 at 5:50 PM, jnrmac said:

Our two ins gave us nothing. 

Kent was murdered by McD Tippowati. Mids were salughtered and our backs were just woeful. No plan, so system, slow, no movement.

I watched from up high for the first time in a while and you could see it all unfolding in slow motion.

Joe Daniher is a complete flogger. And he is the ugliest football player in the comp. Even Dunn's mo was better than his.

In fact I think the only player to win his position was Kennedy.

And the maggots were unbelievably inconsistent and made under 12 type errors.

 

We are [censored] clueless.

BUMP

Coaches votes are in and it appears they agree......

9 Daniher (Ess)
9 Zaharakis (Ess)
6 Z. Merrett (Ess)
2 Gwilt (Ess)
2 Kelly (Ess)
2 Kennedy (Melb)

[dee-luded 2,959]

20 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

I'm kind of coming to the opinion that Nate Jones is our Richie Vandenberg.  He's the leader who shows how everyone needs to work and act around the club and leads through the bad times, but will he be good enough to hold his spot once things turn around and we start looking like a real finals contender?  For years I've maintained that he is drastically underrated and would walk into any midfield in the league, but lately I've been forced to wonder if that's really true. 

each generation hands down what they have to the next one's leaders. 

Pre Jones leaders could give him little.   We were a soft joke.  Talent amongst us, but marshmallows.  when the heat went up,  it was way too much.

 

This new breed I feel are different fish.  I won't name them as they are too raw to have that perception weighing around their necks. but we know they are there.  we have t let them grow their way first. they'll turn up when they feel they're needed.

It'll happen quick IMO,  as I've just looked through  'footywire',  checking our player list  'age wise'.   We have a lot coming into 24 - 25 age bracket,  so our future will come quick,  but we need to keep adding from under,  & above.

 

this is why its imperative we keep adding,  keep building on this clubs competitiveness first.  before the slight skilled.  we mneed hard mongrel players who could eat a leather Sherrin',  onfield.

the Hawks were different,  they already had a culture,  a DNA of bullying opponents.  They could afford to slip back a tad & become more skillful-sublime.  

For us the skilled has always been our 1st love,  but our weakness has been the dirty work,  the workmanlike efforts go unappreciated amongst our flock.  This is where Jones'y is under respected most times.  as was Jnr Mac.  & to a lesser extent even a Godfrey.   Not saying Godfrey was a star,  but we didn't have enough willing to work they're arrrzes off,  for the club & one another.

I'd give you a green bruce & davey,   for a Jonesy & a Jnr Mac every day of the week.  <  these boys you can build a club culture going somewhere,,,  around them.

 

Once we have become competative beasts,   we can  put all the icing we can afford on.    But as yet we have no Selwood, no Boak, no Wines... just young players who might.

 

So to me,  we have to keep maintaining a bias to competative beasts,  not solely,  but say a 70%-30%ratio.  this is not to say we won't play garlett or stretch,  we have to,  but the hardness has to become ingrained in our psyche once again. 

Not easily done at a club that loves those squeaky clean & skilled outside types.

 

[dee-luded 2,959]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

'Leaders' such as Lumumba, Dawes, Garland and even Dunn have been a bitter disappointment in those roles. We don't have leaders who can demand the ball and change the course of a game a la Selwood, Hodge. Granted these guys are genuinely elite players but when we go missing like Saturday there is no-one to drag the players together and bang heads.

Yes, getting rid of Jnr was a mistake on a number of levels but even before that we had Yze, White, Robbo, Green and Bruce who weren't leaders bootlaces. Neitz was but they have been few and far between at the Dees, sadly.  

Actually Viney can often do that but he had a shocker on the weekend.

Dawes i think mostly because of his chronic injuries hands legs.   We seen his best rarely I think.   But its nearly time to bring thru the next few.  Pedro will have to be the bull whilst Frost,  & maybe one of the Kings,  as they are more mature in years at least.   Weide will come thru,  but when he does we should expect he'll need to go back to Casey for further development.   I think we'll need Pedro for 2017.   Insurance.

We shouldn't expect too much too soon from him.  (the weide)  Expectations slow development,  when they're not ready for it.

 

Looking thru the list  its difficult to find spots for the off season.  some will be unlucky this year.

Edited April 5, 2016 by dee-luded

[Ethan Tremblay 31,243]

On 5 April 2016 at 9:30 PM, dee-luded said:

Dawes i think mostly because of his chronic injuries hands legs.   We seen his best rarely I think.   But its nearly time to bring thru the next few.  Pedro will have to be the bull whilst Frost,  & maybe one of the Kings,  as they are more mature in years at least.   Weide will come thru,  but when he does we should expect he'll need to go back to Casey for further development.   I think we'll need Pedro for 2017.   Insurance.

We shouldn't expect too much too soon from him.   Expectations slow development,  when they're not ready for it.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ethan Tremblay