Why raise Tanking again Garry?

[Chris 2,892]

 

Since the end of the 2015 season there have been some pluses and some minuses but overall I think we have improved quite a bit both on and off the field. IMO we have improved since last year. Keep in mind we are coming from a long way back.

I am confident you will find a lot more to be happy about in 2016.

Sure there will be games that will have me heading for the single malt but there be less and we are going to sing the song with gusto more often this year.

The way I see it we were a good VFL team for a few years and this was hidden by the two new clubs coming in. We were miles off the AFL pack. Since Roos has stepped in the improvement across the whole club has not only brought us back to AFL standard but passed a few of the old clubs. This is massive. The next step is to make a good AFL club and I think that is coming. 

I think part of the problem many have with people (our supporters but mainly supporters of other teams) seeing the improvement is they just look at the ladder where we have gone from bottom few to bottom 6 or so, doesn't look so great. They miss that when we were bottom few we should actually have been in a different league.

[Doctor evil 0]

Hasn't chopped the club out in years .Turned up in his big Shades and Polo shirt once when he got neeld . [censored] smoker wouldn't be on these shows without us 

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

 

The way I see it we were a good VFL team for a few years and this was hidden by the two new clubs coming in. We were miles off the AFL pack. Since Roos has stepped in the improvement across the whole club has not only brought us back to AFL standard but passed a few of the old clubs. This is massive. The next step is to make a good AFL club and I think that is coming. 

I think part of the problem many have with people (our supporters but mainly supporters of other teams) seeing the improvement is they just look at the ladder where we have gone from bottom few to bottom 6 or so, doesn't look so great. They miss that when we were bottom few we should actually have been in a different league.

agree with everything you say, but the bolded bit is the worry I have, the worry I have voiced from day ONE. Roos is leaving. How much of our club improvement is going with him?

[Chris 2,892]

 

agree with everything you say, but the bolded bit is the worry I have, the worry I have voiced from day ONE. Roos is leaving. How much of our club improvement is going with him?

A big part of the improvement has been in the way the club operates and cultures etc. Roos' improvement hasn't been so much on the actual game as such, it is all based on standards and roles and culture, not game plan. That means if we maintain those then the improvement keeps coming and we can add the game plans etc, if they collapse we are stuffed. I think Macca will be great for this and from the sounds of it so will Goody. Here's hoping. 

[dee-luded 2,958]

 

And we beat Richmond, Footscray and Geelong when no one thought we had a hope in hell.

 

we're no more snowflakes OD,,, Q'sB is a looong way off just yet.

[Vipercrunch 2,818]

I think people are fooling themselves if they think allowing Essendon top up players is for their benefit and is a "reward".  It is to keep the other players safe and to try and keep them somewhat competitive, which benefits the entire AFL.

To rain down more and more punishment on them weakens every team.  No one will benefit if they are crippled for decades or are forced out of the AFL.  The deterrent is now there. They will be hamstrung by the draft and financial penalties for several years.  Reputations are forever tarnished.

Big deal they get VFL and State league level players to come in for one year.  Are they really going to get anywhere because of that? Good luck to those players, who after this year will no longer be EFC players unless they draft for them in the free market.

 

[dee-luded 2,958]

 

A big part of the improvement has been in the way the club operates and cultures etc. Roos' improvement hasn't been so much on the actual game as such, it is all based on standards and roles and culture, not game plan. That means if we maintain those then the improvement keeps coming and we can add the game plans etc, if they collapse we are stuffed. I think Macca will be great for this and from the sounds of it so will Goody. Here's hoping. 

 

spot on chris... you cannot build a list of winners on-top of a bed of roses & caramel chocolates.

 

its the culture,  the values,  the peoples desire to win, & to be great,  that allows things to fall into place.  culture comes 1st,  2nd,  & all the way. 

.......  and many good people along the way thru our recent past 20 years contributed to a 'soft' culture of nice,  but naught else....  this then leads to a losing mindset, amongst a competition of tough hard winners..........  the rest was our recent history.

 

.

[P-man 13,276]

 

Bob, I didn't raise tanking again, Garry did, that was what my thread was about.

I knew nothing about it til I saw this thread. It likely would've gone unnoticed by the majority who aren't obsessed with this now historic episode.

By the sounds of it, the reference was perfectly legitimate and hardly placing tanking on the discussion table again. 

[Chris 2,892]

 

I knew nothing about it til I saw this thread. It likely would've gone unnoticed by the majority who aren't obsessed with this now historic episode.

By the sounds of it, the reference was perfectly legitimate and hardly placing tanking on the discussion table again. 

That's right, he wasn't discussing the tanking as such but more the boys club corruption of the AFL and their propensity to sweep anything 'bad' under the carpet. 

[daisycutter 28,681]

 

Where is Old Dee and what have you done with him?

his account got hacked i believe

[mauriesy 6,854]

 

This club organised a program that led to 34 players being found guilty of cheating and the players have been given a modified 2 year ban.

Since the guilt of the players has been proven (In a club organised program) the club has received no penalties but has received concessions, extra players and increased salary cap.

I ask, can anyone see how the club has directly been punished in respect of the recently proven cheating program? 

Everything the club has suffered is a punishment for their drug program.

But if you want to be vindictive, go right ahead.

[Whispering_Jack 28,089]

I caught up with the full FC special through you tube and I thought Garry actually raised a fair point about how the tanking investigation and charges would have been dealt with quite differently if there was an independent world body that looked into "tanking" offences. Firstly, all clubs strongly suspected of tanking would have been looked at, secondly the conduct of the investigation and the "evidence" scrutinised properly and thirdly, the pronouncements written and verbal from the AFL's CEO as to what "tanking" did and did not constitute* would have to be taken into account. I'm not sure in those circumstances whether the matter would have gone as far as it did, remembering that 2 QC's had provided opinions to the effect that the charges could not be sustained in a court of law.

* granted there are differing views of what tanking means, Demetriou's statements about what was permitted eliminated most if not all of the misconceptions people had about tanking - eg resting players, playing them out of normal positions, experimenting with tactics etc. He sanctioned all of these things in articles, television interviews and in one talk given by him for a charity function I attended when it was raised in the context of Carlton in 2007.

[ILLDieADemon 804]

It makes you think, if we tanked thinking "everyone else does it and gets away with it so why don't we". What's to say that was the same state of mind the EFL had with there injections? 

Who are we to know how many clubs have tried something like this which was swept under the AFL houses rug before WADA got hold of it considering the number of players that have been court for doping since this investigation on the EFC has started.  

There was a team who won 3 in a row in the early 2000 who's midfield looked freakishly bigger then any other club in the AFL. 

Is whole issue kinda makes me question a lot of past clubs now.

[mauriesy 6,854]

 

Who are we to know how many clubs have tried something like this which was swept under the AFL houses rug before WADA got hold of it considering the number of players that have been court for doping since this investigation on the EFC has started.

There's always the possibility (I'd suggest likelihood) that Essendon were deluded enough to be the only club doing it.

You can't raise a "possibility" and then proceed with the argument as if the possibility is true.

[Guest]

The Gaz Man raises a decent point. He doesn't mention that he expended a crapload of energy himself trying to protect the jobs of two of the architects of the tanking regime but his point is valid nonetheless. 

The difference why we weren't investigated further is due to the incestuous relationship between state government, the gambling industry (and the revenues it brings in) and the AFL. Gambling is a prime source of revenue for both the NSW and Victorian governments and with the changing face of gambling over the last 10-15 years (it's no longer the dogs, trots or gallops these days), betting on AFL matches and all the minor results that happen during them are big business. There is a distinction between the international betting shops and the home grown agencies so I must admit that I'm not 100% sure how agencies like the one Samuel L. Jackson does ads for are governed. 

None of them will want to put relationships at risk when they are all making so much cash. Was it any wonder why when the gambling ombudsman said that  they may look further into tanking that they happily accepted the AFL's whitewashed report and moved on? 

The Essendon situation had an institution who could delve further and had no vested interest in the AFL's success or failure. That's why the big stick came out. 

Quite frankly, if the A League gets it's act together and stops trying to kiss the ring of News Corp and it's stable of 'little Aussie battler' tabloids who will never support them anyway, it has a real chance to put a dent into the AFL's supremacy in Melbourne. 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Colin B. Flaubert

[dieter 3,325]

 

I think Garry made a good point, Essendon is probably not the only one team that had players that took prohibited drugs just like Melbourne was not the only team that tanked.  He is demonstrating the manufactured outcomes the AFL creates to sweep things under the carpet.

Good point. I agree entirely

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,966]

 

The way I see it we were a good VFL team for a few years and this was hidden by the two new clubs coming in. We were miles off the AFL pack. Since Roos has stepped in the improvement across the whole club has not only brought us back to AFL standard but passed a few of the old clubs. This is massive. The next step is to make a good AFL club and I think that is coming. 

I think part of the problem many have with people (our supporters but mainly supporters of other teams) seeing the improvement is they just look at the ladder where we have gone from bottom few to bottom 6 or so, doesn't look so great. They miss that when we were bottom few we should actually have been in a different league.

Some good points. 

Mad for how people view the club we only have to look at the losses to both Essendon and Carlton. Whilst the win against Geelong was massive for so many reasons how much do we take out of it with follow up games like the ones mentioned.

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,966]

 

agree with everything you say, but the bolded bit is the worry I have, the worry I have voiced from day ONE. Roos is leaving. How much of our club improvement is going with him?

Fair point, I'm not so worried and I say that because I think the players that are 23-24 years of age or younger are the ones that have all bought in and that's where 85% of the talent on the list is. This season could mark the end of the road at Melbourne for a few senior players, we have some who are very talented but don't apply themselves, we have those who apply themselves but don't have the talent and we have a few overrated ones as well. When we are really pushing for finals and hopefully winning them it will be on the back of the current group of 18-24 year olds.

[Cranky Franky 1,544]

 

It makes you think, if we tanked thinking "everyone else does it and gets away with it so why don't we". What's to say that was the same state of mind the EFL had with there injections? 

Who are we to know how many clubs have tried something like this which was swept under the AFL houses rug before WADA got hold of it considering the number of players that have been court for doping since this investigation on the EFC has started.  

There was a team who won 3 in a row in the early 2000 who's midfield looked freakishly bigger then any other club in the AFL. 

Is whole issue kinda makes me question a lot of past clubs now.

"who's midfield looked freakishly bigger then any other club in the AFL"

That is a freakishly silly comment - you can say a lot about Brisbane but their midfield happened to contain 3 Brownlow medalists plus Lappin & what they had was talent. 

. 

[demonmerv 92]

Brisbane also had an inflated salary cap that allowed them to retain all their depth players.

 

[daisycutter 28,681]

i understand the relevance of bringing up the tanking in the context of how the afl "manages" integrity within the sport.

but turning the discussion into an afl blame game the same day the players were found guilty seemed to me to be deflecting from the guilt of essendon and the players and served to minimise that guilt or to try and apportion some of it to the afl. there certainly is a need to discuss how the afl handled this and other issues but not necessarily on such a momentous day with just a short time for the program. i'm sure efc were happy for gary to pursue that tangent at that time

[mauriesy 6,854]

Saying "every other team did it" sounds like the sort of excuse Essendon supporters would use to ameliorate their culpability and guilt.

[Macca 16,173]

Regardless, the tanking stuff is over ... besides all that, there are no real residual effects like what will happen at Essendon. The effects on our club were immediate.

The PED stuff has only just begun ... a 7 month investigation for tanking will be nothing compared to the multiple years of angst that the PED use at Essendon will cause. Their supporters will wear this for years - and it's not their fault either (the supporters) 

That's apart from the damage caused to the sport that goes with it ... it's my guess that many of the 17 players who aren't at Essendon or the other 4 AFL clubs who were busted will end up taking legal action - a class action is on the cards too.

 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Macca

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

 

Fair point, I'm not so worried and I say that because I think the players that are 23-24 years of age or younger are the ones that have all bought in and that's where 85% of the talent on the list is. This season could mark the end of the road at Melbourne for a few senior players, we have some who are very talented but don't apply themselves, we have those who apply themselves but don't have the talent and we have a few overrated ones as well. When we are really pushing for finals and hopefully winning them it will be on the back of the current group of 18-24 year olds.

Again, I tend to agree with you, but then I realise that's pretty much the exact same tune we have all been singing for the last decade. Without being a negative nelly for the sake of it, I guess what I'm saying in this thread is that I'm far from convinced that we have turned a corner, and that this isn't as TGR would say, 'fool's gold'. I really need to see a bunch of tangible results this year.. even then, you have to think back to 2010/2011 when we genuinely looked good but it never came to bear. Hmm.

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,966]

 

"who's midfield looked freakishly bigger then any other club in the AFL"

That is a freakishly silly comment - you can say a lot about Brisbane but their midfield happened to contain 3 Brownlow medalists plus Lappin & what they had was talent. 

. 

And Luke Power