POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 11

[binman 42,606]

I can't believe i tipped Melbourne. Crazy stuff. Not because of any hoodoo but because they have virtually no injury concerns and we have 5-6 of our best 22 out injured (and Tyson coming back from injury).

I have said it for years but the number of players out is the single biggest determinate of a team's success, yet amazingly is often minimised with the culture long being to not blame them for poor performances. Obviously clubs down the bottom are hurt more by injuries to best 22 players, but all clubs struggle with them.

So i guess both this week and last can be seen more positively.

[dpositive 1,663]

Look, I don't disagree, but I don't think we can just blame the players forever. There has to be some accountability from the top, who picks the players, recruits the players, works with the players every week

I agree

but posted elsewhere that this is a progressive learning point and could be the significant one.

Players now need to buy in to make sure they win these close ones and decrease the poor passages so that we are winning by better margins. They need to improve under pressure and play with greater intensity when required.

I would be gathering them together and saying this is the beginning if you dont want to break yourself to win then leave I would be wanting Howe to sign up now or he is not part of the group going forward he would be expendable and only in the team if all alternatives were injured or when playing a top team and there is a need to rest one of the committed players.

[pitmaster 3,512]

I didn't want to check this any earlier - it's now 12.30pm Monday - because the venting is, as expected totally over the top.

I expected to lose to the Saints since they have been travelling well, better than us, and they had zero injuries. We have, what, six of our best 22 out? Kent, Vanders, Salem are all walk ups, Pederson/Dawes - one has to play and neither did in the second half, then you can start thinking about prospects like Petracca.

After yesterday I am much more optimistic about the rest of the year. The most worrying thing for me is that the players weren't smart enough to get two forwards behind the ball for the final bounce.

To that point only one goal had been scored in the quarter - OURS! so there was not going to be much on the clock. They should not have needed to be told.

That aside, Watts continued his revival, the Toump has arrived after so many on here - including me - doubted him, Gawn dominated, Viney was incredibly strong at stoppages and even when they were in front we were dominating around the ball - we just did not use it well enough.

Some really dumb umpiring decisions hurt us in the third term when we had a run on but I actually rate us as a chance at Geelong...and we have Carlton, Brisbane, the Saints and Dogs again - there's four winnable. I also count the return bout with the Pies as winnable if we can get a few players back - Cloke ain't going seven zip again. And there's the Bombers. Make that six winnable.

So cheer up. We have showed quite a bit these last couple of weeks and one or two lucky breaks and you'd have been singing last night. We will again.

Edited June 15, 2015 by pitmaster

[Wunders 397]

I think we have a new contender for old iron hands out there. Max Gawn. Couldn't mark a beach ball. We're predictable down the line to Gawn, but we get away with it if he could take a contested mark. He's 208cm FCS. It's about time he starts playing like it.

Agreed on his hands (i really want him to take them), but we had soo many opportunities to go earlier when gawn was 1v1 with a smaller opponent and had space... yet we don't have confidence to kick it to him... Instead we wait and wait then bomb it on his head when he is now 1v2..

I didn't want to check this any earlier - it's now 12.30pm Monday - because the venting is, as expected totally over the top.

I expected to lose because they have been travelling well, better than us, and they had zero injuries. We have, what, six of our best 22 out? Kent, Vanders, Salem are all walk ups, Pederson/Dawes - one has to play and neither did in the second half, then you can start thinking about prospects like Petracca.

I am much more optimistic about the rest of the year. The most worrying thing for me is that the players weren't smart enough to get two forwards behind the ball for the final bounce.

To that point only one goal had been scored in the quarter - OURS! so there was not going to be much on the clock. They should not have needed to be told.

That aside, Watts continued his revival, the Toump has arrived after so many on here - including me - doubted him, Gawn dominated, Viney was incredibly strong at stoppages and even when they were in front we were dominating around the ball - we just did not use it well enough.

Some really dumb umpiring decisions hurt us in the third term when we had a run on but I actually rate us as a chance at Geelong...and we have Carlton, Brisbane, the Saints and Dogs again - there's four winnable. I also count the return bout with the Pies as winnable if we can get a few players back - Cloke ain't going seven zip again.

So cheer up. We have showed quite a bit these last couple of weeks and one or two lucky breaks and you'd have been singing last night. We will again.

Like the message, keep it up

[beelzebub 23,313]

Roos has taken responsibility for the outcome. I accept he's correct.

[MadAsHell 4,212]

I can't believe i tipped Melbourne. Crazy stuff. Not because of any hoodoo but because they have virtually no injury concerns and we have 5-6 of our best 22 out injured (and Tyson coming back from injury).

I have said it for years but the number of players out is the single biggest determinate of a team's success, yet amazingly is often minimised with the culture long being to not blame them for poor performances. Obviously clubs down the bottom are hurt more by injuries to best 22 players, but all clubs struggle with them.

So i guess both this week and last can be seen more positively.

Yep.

Garland, Frost, Vandenberg, Tengove, Kent, Salem, Petracca

Throw in Dawes & Kennedy-Harris not fit for AFL selection & then Jamar (who on form is still best 22) into the mix and we're one short of half the team!

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Yep.

Garland, Frost, Vandenberg, Tengove, Kent, Salem, Petracca

Throw in Dawes & Kennedy-Harris not fit for AFL selection & then Jamar (who on form is still best 22) into the mix and we're one short of half the team!

also lost Pedo during the game, that's TEN on the list, I would play about 8 of them if selecting a best 22

[Pirlo 813]

Is it bad that I still feel no better and can't bring myself to read the papers?

40 seconds away from breaking two curses.

I'm just sick of other teams lapping us.

[rjay 24,852]

Is it bad that I still feel no better and can't bring myself to read the papers?

40 seconds away from breaking two curses.

I'm just sick of other teams lapping us.

They're not lapping us, the Saints played in a GF in 2010. The Dogs played in Prelims recently.

They still have key leaders from that time, we don't. We are coming from a lot further back than any other team in the competition and this time we have to get it right.

I know 'Saty' hates this but the CS era cost us dearly and it's taking time to get out of the hole.

[rpfc 28,248]

Can I just say to the parents worried about their kids following the Dees - it is the experience they have with you at the footy that determine their desire to keep watching the footy and going for the Dees. If they just see their Dad gnash teeth and get angry (and stay angry) that is what keeps them from wanting to go, or wanting to watch the Dees, not a two point loss 'Riewoldt's team'.

[#11-TonyAnderson 758]

Dropped another one that we should have won. Being a dees supporter teaches resilience!

Edited June 15, 2015 by #11-TonyAnderson

[MadAsHell 4,212]

also lost Pedo during the game, that's TEN on the list, I would play about 8 of them if selecting a best 22

It's frightening isn't it, yet haven't heard much made of it in the media.

FB: Dunn, T. McDonald, Jetta

HB: Garland, Frost, Lumumba

C: Vandenberg, Vince, Tyson

HF: Trengove, Dawes, Kent

FF: Howe, Hogan, Garlett

FOLL: Jamar, Cross, N. Jones

INT: Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Viney

EMERG: Kennedy-Harris, Toumpas, Watts

Entire half forward line out. No wonder we couldn't get it out of our back line in the final term.

At least the injuries have allowed the likes of Toumpas & Watts to find form.

[mo64 5,853]

Yep.

Garland, Frost, Vandenberg, Tengove, Kent, Salem, Petracca

Throw in Dawes & Kennedy-Harris not fit for AFL selection & then Jamar (who on form is still best 22) into the mix and we're one short of half the team!

These sort of "what-ifs" have been done to death over the years. You rarely have your best 22 on the field at one time, and the absent players are game changers all of sudden, when in reality, we know they're not. Sure, VDB, Salem and Kent would improve the team on paper, but that's not to say that the result changes.

If Garlett was out, many would say thet he was the difference between a win and a loss. He played and did stuff all, and the players you've mentioned could well have done the same, because none of them are proven A graders.

[Redleg 40,815]

Roos has taken responsibility for the outcome. I accept he's correct.

I think he is protecting his players.

[Demonsone 2,032]

Whilst I was/am [censored] off @ these games we should be winning .... The reality it's were our list is & the dumb turnovers which has gifted many clubs many goals..... We have a number of vfl players getting afl games....

It took Thompson 8 seasons to win a flag & develop the culture @ Geelong & we are expecting Roos to get us right in 1 1/2 seasons... Some perspective?????

[Melb16 491]

These sort of "what-ifs" have been done to death over the years. You rarely have your best 22 on the field at one time, and the absent players are game changers all of sudden, when in reality, we know they're not. Sure, VDB, Salem and Kent would improve the team on paper, but that's not to say that the result changes.

If Garlett was out, many would say thet he was the difference between a win and a loss. He played and did stuff all, and the players you've mentioned could well have done the same, because none of them are proven A graders.

Great points.

Stating who is out provides comfort to people but I'm not sure the guys we had out makes all the much of a difference, we would've found a way to lose.

We should be more worried about our system.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I think he is protecting his players.

i don't. Hes simply acknowledging thatas a team, a club it ought not simply come down to last minute f ups. There needs to be better understanding by players as to what they should do and when. This is the domain of the coaches and as hes the big cohuna ultimately it befalls him to ensure these things don't happen.

I agree.

[Pates 9,659]

Yes it sucked but I am pretty amazed at how much grown adults are having a sook about it. It's not like we are going to miss out on finals now. Our first year KPF kicked 5, could have been 7 or 8 - he is the biggest asset in the comp and he is ours. Toumpas, Watts and Grimes were all good. We already know Brayshaw, Kent and Salem will be good. Next year we get Petracca, Trengove and another high draft pick or import from another club. We have a huge injury list and a very hard draw so far. I still reckon we will win 5 more. Things are so much better than 2 years ago. Chill out everyone.

Look I feel like I'm mostly a glass is half full kinda guy, but this game needed to be won. For so many reasons. We haven't beaten the Saints for a very long time and that is absolutely ridiculous as they've hardly been world beaters, we haven't won at Etihad Stadium and I don't see us breaking that hoodoo as they keep making the same errors there. We have actually managed to win less games than this time last year, you can talk about us changing/improving culture and future and all that stuff but the time to show the improvement that the fans deserve is to win these games. Finally the win was actually handed to us on a plate, the Saints did everything they could to lose it and when it came to the crunch everybody right down to the runner failed.

There are good signs, but I am so bloody sick of "good signs".

[Akum 2,660]

Can I just say to the parents worried about their kids following the Dees - it is the experience they have with you at the footy that determine their desire to keep watching the footy and going for the Dees. If they just see their Dad gnash teeth and get angry (and stay angry) that is what keeps them from wanting to go, or wanting to watch the Dees, not a two point loss 'Riewoldt's team'.

Sooooooo ... equanimity in the face of mind-blowing incompetence?

I reckon if the Dalai Lama were a Dees supporter, he would have lost it yesterday.

[DubDee 25,530]

It's frightening isn't it, yet haven't heard much made of it in the media.

FB: Dunn, T. McDonald, Jetta

HB: Garland, Frost, Lumumba

C: Vandenberg, Vince, Tyson

HF: Trengove, Dawes, Kent

FF: Howe, Hogan, Garlett

FOLL: Jamar, Cross, N. Jones

INT: Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Viney

EMERG: Kennedy-Harris, Toumpas, Watts

Entire half forward line out. No wonder we couldn't get it out of our back line in the final term.

At least the injuries have allowed the likes of Toumpas & Watts to find form.

It is no doubt having an effect but its not like we have any of our top players out like other teams do. What if TMac, Jones, Vince, Hogan were out?

Jamar was dropped probably wont play again. JT dropped, JKH was dropped, Dawes quite possibly would have been dropped if not injured.

Salem, Kent, Garland (and previously Viney) hurt but we should be able to cover

fark im sick of us being this bad!! almost a decade of this shite!

The saints were tipped for last place and 1-2 wins and are better than us already. I cant wait until pre-season.

[McQueen 17,864]

Paul Roos is 99% to blame today

We get in front with minutes to go. He doesn't put Jones in the guts. He doesn't put 3 extra back. He does sweet [censored] all.

This team is a joke. I've had a gutful.

Tanking?

[Bossdog 2,002]

As disappointed as the last 40 sec were yesterday I noted the following points

9 players in our side have played less than 50 games

4 of those are in their first year.

St Kilda are the best side for pressure on opposition (Ranked 1st in the league)and we matched them in pressure acts

Last year and the one before when we were 4 goals down in the 2nd quarter that would have been the game and a loss by 6 or more

Last year and the one before we would not have hit the front in the last after struggling all quarter.

Tyson has played 42 games and coming back from injury (Get off his back)

I don't think you could fault the players desire which we have in the past

Yep....Players made mistakes as ALL players do.....Yep it's frustrating watching from an elevated position when you can see loose players but the players at ground level can't.

It's not all doom and gloom....I think it is starting to come together.

Any player that pulls on our jumper does not deserve to be called a spud, please find another name to prove your superiority.

Anyway just my view on things as they stand.

[poita 3,889]

It amazes me that so many of the people who make big declarations on Friday about how we are going to beat / smash a team, are back on Monday armed with a bunch of lame excuses for why we couldn't get the job done.

Ultimately they played mediocre football for 99% of the game and were so startled to be in a winning position with a minute ago, that they collectively crapped themselves in the final minute. St Kilda are overall a younger and less experienced side, and we should have beaten them. There is no excusing or sugar coating any of that.

[chookrat 4,247]

It was a total process breakdown, really. From what I've pieced together from the Vince and Roos interviews, both the players and the coaches took the view that the players have responsibility for driving that kind of tactic, but:

- Vince said the players overestimated how long was left

- Roos' choice of words for taking responsibility was "we (coaches) couldn't get it done" - suggests they were trying to get the message through

- Miller (the runner) was stuck on the ground giving out "other messages". After the goal, by the time someone gets his attention to relay the new message, play will have resumed and it will be too late

So the players stuffed up: didn't set up correctly, the coaches stuffed up: left in a position where they couldn't communicate with the players and the runner stuffed up: not left in a position to relay messages at a crucial time. One thing I've learned in my line of business is that most major catastrophes occur when errors "cascade", i.e. one leads to another several times over, and that's definitely the case here. Whoever is in charge (Roos, I guess) needs to make sure systems are in place so this never happens again.

Masher, this Is a good summary. I also think that Roos presser he was obviously disappointed in the loss but would have been happy with the performance overall after getting over the result. At least what broke down can be addressed, unlike the Hawthorn game when so many things didn't work there was nothing to gain.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

It amazes me that so many of the people who make big declarations on Friday about how we are going to beat / smash a team, are back on Monday armed with a bunch of lame excuses for why we couldn't get the job done.

Ultimately they played mediocre football for 99% of the game and were so startled to be in a winning position with a minute ago, that they collectively crapped themselves in the final minute. St Kilda are overall a younger and less experienced side, and we should have beaten them. There is no excusing or sugar coating any of that.

St Kilda Attribute Melbourne

186.8cm Height 187.2cm

85.7kg Weight 86.6kg

24yr 9mth Age 24yr 5mth

77.6 Games 72.0

Edited June 15, 2015 by Curry & Beer