Taking stock

[Wells 11 4,781]

Agreed we miss Kent, Frost and Viney, but I also agree Tyson has been thoroughly underwhelming this season. He was instrumental in our few wins last season. He won a heap of clearances and kicked goals. If he capture that form again this year, that's where the season will turn, IMO. It'll free up Jones, Vince and even Brayshaw and Vanders.

I see Frost is now listed at 6 weeks. Which some might say is an improvement on 4-6! But either way it must be way more than a broken toe. Anybody know anything about the real nature of his injury?

[rpfc 27,498]

I think everyone expecting these better results is basing that on us having a change around of form though. Not saying it won't happen, but it's unrealistic to expect 5 or more further wins given our current form.

For me, getting Frost and Kent back, as well as a more ready Viney, is the key to us having a chance of turning our form around.

What 'form'?

'Form' implies consistency of performance.

That is not where we are at in the first two months; the first half against GWS vs the second half, the first quarter and a bit against PA vs the rest of that game, the Dogs game coming out of nowhere after being belted for three weeks...

I can see us beating the Pies and then losing to the Saints, just as readily - I can see us getting smashed by the Pies and belting the Saints.

I no longer have a feeling of morbid loathing when heading into the weekend, I have an uneasy excitement, an irrational confidence that gets buttressed and stripped away as quickly as each other.

Again, as this thread alludes, that is progress. But it is infuriating and embarrassing to have the juxtaposition of good football next to our failure; it wasn't a problem in the past few years...

[Sir Why You Little 34,579]

Until we find some true leaders who take the game on weekly. Enjoy smashing opponents

This club will go nowhere.

Last saturday was proof to me

No matter what Roos instills into this bunch of choirboys they cannot be relied on when the battle is on.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Sir Why You Little

[Wells 11 4,781]

What 'form'?

'Form' implies consistency of performance.

That is not where we are at in the first two months; the first half against GWS vs the second half, the first quarter and a bit against PA vs the rest of that game, the Dogs game coming out of nowhere after being belted for three weeks...

I can see us beating the Pies and then losing to the Saints, just as readily - I can see us getting smashed by the Pies and belting the Saints.

I no longer have a feeling of morbid loathing when heading into the weekend, I have an uneasy excitement, an irrational confidence that gets buttressed and stripped away as quickly as each other.

Again, as this thread alludes, that is progress. But it is infuriating and embarrassing to have the juxtaposition of good football next to our failure; it wasn't a problem in the past few years...

I feel the same rpfc but It occurs to me that the players do too. which explains why Roos says some are scarred. Neeld

and schwabb almost destroyed our club...im still not sure if we're going to make it out of the emergency room

Edited June 3, 2015 by Wells 11

[FarNorthernD 5,848]

As nice as the three wins have been, I suspect our percentage is more reflective of where we are at.

The fact that our percentage is more than 10% below St Kilda, despite having the same number of wins, is damning and shows that we still don't have a group which is prepared to work hard enough for long enough.

Regardless of our win / loss record for the remainder of the year, it would be hard to judge this as a successful year if our percentage doesn't finish above 80.

Oh, and despite breaking 100 twice this year, we still have the worst forward line in the competition.

We have easily the worst midfield in the comp but our forward line is OKish. I'm fairly sure that our conversion rate for the number of forward 50 entries is actually pretty good.

Like others here, I believe that if our midfield could approach even mediocre AFL standards we would win games consistently.

[hardtack 10,127]

Until we find some true leaders who take the game on weekly. Enjoy smashing opponents

This club will go nowhere.

Last saturday was proof to me

No matter what Roos instills into this bunch of choirboys they cannot be relied on when the battle is on.

Cudos to you WYL for not going the "in the trenches" analogy. Must have been tempting ;-)

[praha 10,283]

Our midfield is not even that bad. Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Cross, Viney, Tyson, all competent midfielders, and far from the worst combination.

IMO it's something a lot deeper. I don't know what it is. But the capitulations starts in the middle and granted that makes it a midfield problem but as we saw against the Bulldogs -- in which we out-muscled and out-tackled them as well as smashed them in the middle -- our midfield is entirely capable.

Roos' calls of it being a psychological thing I think has merit.

[stuie 7,374]

What 'form'?

'Form' implies consistency of performance.

That is not where we are at in the first two months; the first half against GWS vs the second half, the first quarter and a bit against PA vs the rest of that game, the Dogs game coming out of nowhere after being belted for three weeks...

I can see us beating the Pies and then losing to the Saints, just as readily - I can see us getting smashed by the Pies and belting the Saints.

I no longer have a feeling of morbid loathing when heading into the weekend, I have an uneasy excitement, an irrational confidence that gets buttressed and stripped away as quickly as each other.

Again, as this thread alludes, that is progress. But it is infuriating and embarrassing to have the juxtaposition of good football next to our failure; it wasn't a problem in the past few years...

Our "form" is our inconsistency.

[Chris 2,892]

I'm just not convinced. Our draw to end last year was quite hard -- North twice, Freo, West Coast away, Geelong, Port away, which made up 7 of our last 10 games, but we still buckled against lower teams. Dare I say our capitulations this year have been Neeld-esque, albeit against very tough opposition. We didn't work anywhere near as hard against Port, Sydney and Hawthorn this year than we did last year.

We've probably had one of the hardest draws to start the season. Anyone would think we'd finished top 4. Great work by the AFL scheduling Freo, Sydney, Hawthorn and Port over a five-week period... that said the team hasn't played with great conviction in any of its losses, whereas last year we gave a whelp, even against top teams. I'm just worried that we're going to end up in a spiral. To be frank if they can't get up for this week's game and instead end up getting smashed it'll be very disappointing.

It's comical that we're back here after saying the same stuff before the Footscray game. "If they don't give it a go this week they never will," people said. Fact remains is that we haven't won 2 in a row for 5 years, haven't beaten Collingwood for 10 years, not to mention a few other teams, and so for me, having an "easy" draw does nothing to me.

I want the team to turn a corner, not get garbage-time wins against crap sides. We should expect as much.

Wouldn't getting garbage time wins against crap sides be turning a corner? I ask as it is something we haven't managed to do before, so surely doing it now would show we are on the up?

It is depressing to think that is an improvement, but it is.

[dee-luded 2,958]

so we are 3 and 6 after a tough start. I venture to say people would have taken that at the start of the season (having played the top 4 from last season)?

How do we think we will go for the rest of the season? The good news is we only have 1 game we are 100% no chance in (away to Freo). Call me crazy but I no longer put the cats in that category especially after the weekend

Other good news: we play St kilda twice, brisbane at home, carlton, and dogs again

I personally think we can win 6 of the next 13 at least. Given we have beaten GC, Tiges and Dogs (all fairly convinvingly) I think we roughly know our level. Given that, I reckon we are a shout in the 2 games against the pies and we will win one of them.

When Tyson, Viney, Salem are back firing I think we could go on a roll and maybe...... dare I say it..... win two games in a row!!!

Go Dees!! I'll be there on Monday screaming my guts out

we are in the spot you say we are entering that middle ladder bracket, but the ladder doesn't indicate the truth as yet. but we are short on for games experience in these young players, so we are on the way; BUT experience takes its time.

our depth is better but our weaker players are not much chop.

[praha 10,283]

Wouldn't getting garbage time wins against crap sides be turning a corner? I ask as it is something we haven't managed to do before, so surely doing it now would show we are on the up?

It is depressing to think that is an improvement, but it is.

Well by that logic, mere improvement would be "turning the corner". We improved last year over 2013 but we're still a bottom 4 side.

What I mean is that we need to turn that corner into becoming a middle-tier side. You can't make the leap from bottom 4 to top 8 like you used to be able to do in the 90s. If you can't turn the corner after 4 seasons, you have to start again. We've seen Richmond go through this about 5 times since 1995.

Have the Bulldogs "turned a corner"? In some respects they have. GWS have turned a corner. We are not faltering, we aren't falling, we're just stuck in neutral.

As I mentioned in another thread, we have the keys to the house but we keep breaking through the window.

Turning the corner for mine is playing consistently good football for more than 1 week. We haven't played good, enjoyable-to-watch football over the course of a few weeks since mid-2011. That means that when we *have* played well, we have played poorly the following week. We are consistently inconsistent lol.

Turning the corner doesn't necessarily mean beating a good side. It's finding consistency.

[Binmans PA 26,223]

Well by that logic, mere improvement would be "turning the corner". We improved last year over 2013 but we're still a bottom 4 side.

What I mean is that we need to turn that corner into becoming a middle-tier side. You can't make the leap from bottom 4 to top 8 like you used to be able to do in the 90s. If you can't turn the corner after 4 seasons, you have to start again. We've seen Richmond go through this about 5 times since 1995.

Have the Bulldogs "turned a corner"? In some respects they have. GWS have turned a corner. We are not faltering, we aren't falling, we're just stuck in neutral.

As I mentioned in another thread, we have the keys to the house but we keep breaking through the window.

Turning the corner for mine is playing consistently good football for more than 1 week. We haven't played good, enjoyable-to-watch football over the course of a few weeks since mid-2011. That means that when we *have* played well, we have played poorly the following week. We are consistently inconsistent lol.

Turning the corner doesn't necessarily mean beating a good side. It's finding consistency.

But improvement also comes incrementally. When we win our 6-8 games this year that'll be an improvement on last year. Next year it'll be about ensuring consistency of performance. If we can do that we'll go close to the top 8. Once again, another incremental step.

[stuie 7,374]

But improvement also comes incrementally. When we win our 6-8 games this year that'll be an improvement on last year. Next year it'll be about ensuring consistency of performance. If we can do that we'll go close to the top 8. Once again, another incremental step.

Ok, seriously, people need to stop just assuming we're going to win 6-8 games. Things will need to change for that to happen, and that change is a given.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

W/L wise, yes 3-6 meets my expectations. However, they've been 6 bad, frustrating losses. I'm definitely proud of our Dogs/Suns games, given they challenged us in both and we were able to kick away in the end.

I thought under a second preseason with Roos we would have matured enough to at least be more consistent. Goes to show that experience together is more valuable than experience in general and that Roos, whilst providing stability in the club, may not be able to coach us to the level we all hoped. Our most consistent performers are first year players and Tom McDonald

[Jaded No More 58,113]

We've been solid against the middling teams and garbage against the good ones.

We are a genuine middle of the pack side on evidence this year. I expect our results in the back half to be better than the front half due to the easier draw, with a bitter disappointment or two along the way.

Middle of the pack sure as hell beats bottom of the pack

[Sir Why You Little 34,579]

Please. I keep reading on here that we have improved...Started to turn the corner...?

No we haven't. Last saturday we were scored against 16 goals to 2 after being in a winning position

We have not improved from the dim days of Kardinia Park 2011. Personel has changed somewhat but we are still a complete basket case as far as football is concerned.

I knew the situation was in a terrible mess in 2013

Now i know it to be a lot worse. 2 years under a topline coach and the psych is still as brittle as fine china.

[rpfc 27,498]

Our midfield is not even that bad. Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Cross, Viney, Tyson, all competent midfielders, and far from the worst combination.

IMO it's something a lot deeper. I don't know what it is. But the capitulations starts in the middle and granted that makes it a midfield problem but as we saw against the Bulldogs -- in which we out-muscled and out-tackled them as well as smashed them in the middle -- our midfield is entirely capable.

Roos' calls of it being a psychological thing I think has merit.

It has capable individuals but there seems little room for error, and by error I mean - lack of form, ability to get the footy, or simply impose themselves on contests and that comes back to your first line; you have named 5 players...

In todays game, more than half the team goes through the midfield and are required to play roles through the middle of the ground.

We can't seem to sustain good football, and part of it has to come down to the fact that our midfield is so shallow with talent, young, and not good enough.

[Jaded No More 58,113]

Please. I keep reading on here that we have improved...Started to turn the corner...?

No we haven't. Last saturday we were scored against 16 goals to 2 after being in a winning position

We have not improved from the dim days of Kardinia Park 2011. Personel has changed somewhat but we are still a complete basket case as far as football is concerned.

I knew the situation was in a terrible mess in 2013

Now i know it to be a lot worse. 2 years under a topline coach and the psych is still as brittle as fine china.

You can't be serious

Someone posted a stat recently of time in front. We are in the top half of the list for being in front during games.

In 2013 we were under 20%. That means for the whole season we spent less than 20% of the time in front of our opponent.

I understand that mentally we are still up and down, which happens with a young list and an NQR midfield.

But to say we are no better than when we lost by 186 points is completely inaccurate, and takes into account only win-loss ratio, rather than %, scores against and for, quarter won and so on and so forth.

We've had a very tough draw, and were disappointing in some games, but we have improved on and off the field by 100% since that awful day in Geelong.

[Sir Why You Little 34,579]

You can't be serious

Someone posted a stat recently of time in front. We are in the top half of the list for being in front during games.

In 2013 we were under 20%. That means for the whole season we spent less than 20% of the time in front of our opponent.

I understand that mentally we are still up and down, which happens with a young list and an NQR midfield.

But to say we are no better than when we lost by 186 points is completely inaccurate, and takes into account only win-loss ratio, rather than %, scores against and for, quarter won and so on and so forth.

We've had a very tough draw, and were disappointing in some games, but we have improved on and off the field by 100% since that awful day in Geelong.

I disagree.

You cannot say we have improved 100% onfield when 5 years after 186 we are allowing sides to still kick 16 goals to 2 against us.

This is why the MFC is where it is & other clubs can bottom out and win a flag in 5 years

We haven't moved and that is the reality.

[leucopogon 1,468]

so we are 3 and 6 after a tough start. I venture to say people would have taken that at the start of the season (having played the top 4 from last season)?

How do we think we will go for the rest of the season? The good news is we only have 1 game we are 100% no chance in (away to Freo). Call me crazy but I no longer put the cats in that category especially after the weekend

Other good news: we play St kilda twice, brisbane at home, carlton, and dogs again

I give us no chance at all against the Eagles, yet another team that completely has the wood over us (same as Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, St Kilda, North). I reckon they'll give us at least a 10 goal belting.

[FireOath 290]

Simply put, I think we are on track. We are only one win away from equaling last years wins and it isn't even halfway through the season yet. It will get better from here.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Our midfield is not even that bad. Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Cross, Viney, Tyson, all competent midfielders, and far from the worst combination.

IMO it's something a lot deeper. I don't know what it is. But the capitulations starts in the middle and granted that makes it a midfield problem but as we saw against the Bulldogs -- in which we out-muscled and out-tackled them as well as smashed them in the middle -- our midfield is entirely capable.

Roos' calls of it being a psychological thing I think has merit.

Our midfield's in a far better state than two years ago, as is our forward line. I think for the most part, the personnel's there. Mentally, we are deficient, and our team chemistry needs a hell of a lot of work

[sue 8,444]

I suspect the best and maybe only way confidence will return is when we actually come back and win after being well behind. Judging by recent years, it may take a few flukes in a row in the game for that to happen but once it does, I'd expect the corner will be turned.

[Sir Why You Little 34,579]

I suspect the best and maybe only way confidence will return is when we actually come back and win after being well behind. Judging by recent years, it may take a few flukes in a row in the game for that to happen but once it does, I'd expect the corner will be turned.

A come back win from being well behind is never a fluke unless that team is playing the MFC

Comeback wins only happen through sheer hard work beating opponents time after time.

Maintaining the workrate through the fatigue pain barrier

[rjay 23,923]

It has capable individuals but there seems little room for error, and by error I mean - lack of form, ability to get the footy, or simply impose themselves on contests and that comes back to your first line; you have named 5 players...

In todays game, more than half the team goes through the midfield and are required to play roles through the middle of the ground.

We can't seem to sustain good football, and part of it has to come down to the fact that our midfield is so shallow with talent, young, and not good enough.

I think this is a big part of our problem 'rpfc', we don't have enough talent running through the midfield and if one is injured that puts us even further back.

There is no one to give our better mids a chop out, the work is done by a few and not the many of the better sides. Plus we don't yet have a true A grader.