Post Match Discussion

[Scipio 5,868]

• While I was sceptical of the Howe/Frawley switch initially, I am fully converted now. Chip was super impressive with his judgement in the air and his hands while playing in front (which were my key concerns). His mobility and strength makes him a very dangerous CHF in the modern game as he is good at both leading up at the ball carrier and can burn his man off running back to goal. He is also a bull when the ball is on the ground. Howe looks the goods down back also and Tom McDonald has stood up well as the main defender in the last two weeks.
• I also now see Georgiou as a lock in our back six, so it will be interesting to see how we match up when Garland and Hogan are fully fit. A key issue will be who plays as the second ruckman, because Pederson will likely make way for Garland in the back six despite a reasonable last couple of games.
• I would like to see Toumpas come in for Terlich and play down back.
• I would consider playing Garland as the sub next week.
• JKH isn’t quite ready yet and needs to put on some size. He needs to improve his ability in the air to become a decent AFL player. He isn’t in my best 22 and I would give Salem a go because Byrnes and Blease have the same issues.
• We played more direct footy on Saturday. I am sure Roos has been driving this and it gave our forwards a real chance. Dawes and Dunn are smart and experienced forwards and gave plenty of space to Chip.
• Playing Jones as a tagger/defender was a good move and it should be tried again in the future. (I think McKenzie to Ablett at the beginning makes more sense this week though.)

Ins: Toumpas, Salem, Garland (sub)

Outs: Terlich, JKH, Evans

Terlich is a definite out but JKH is a must keep for his spark and chasing pressure, while I thought Evans was good when he came on as sub. May get a full game this week, especially as his pace will be an asset against the quick Suns.

Garland to go another week in the VFL to gain some touch and Salem and Toumpas to keep building their confidence for the next couple of weeks.

[daisycutter 28,614]

Kent definitely has a crack and I owe Cross an apology. I thought he was dusted, but not on yesterday!

i don't want to go there

[Tyson_Viney_Toumpas 269]

Most Kents definitely do have a crack....

[Bang Bang Bang 5,510]

Cross can play another two years if he continues at this rate.

He said over the summer that he wants to play another 2-3 seasons. You wouldn't bet against it on current form. It was a really sensible move to get his signature, I hope we look at similar sorts again this off-season.

[Earl Hood 5,789]

Most of our midfield have only played a couple of games together and will only get better, so it's not unexpected that they wold lose the clearances, also Spencer has played less that 30 games so when he improves, so will our clearance rate.

When we kicked out from the Punt road end we kept kicking to the Members wing and there just didn't seem to be anyone offering an option on the outer wing and there didn't seem to be anyone offering up allowing the play to switch. Is that what you were referring to?

Robbie yes that is part of it. Especially watching us last week against GWS we basically coughed up any chance of winning in the last quarter and a half because we kept kicking out from points to the same point. No one spread out the other way to at least spread the Giants. No we all congregated on the one wing and the Giants just lined up behind and wide of us, waiting to get the ball, then kicked forward yet again for another point before they finally started to kick straight.

But what I am also referring to is our inability to anticipate the switch over from the full back line when our backs, gain possession and decide to switch over to the other flank because one side is flooded. When we pass over to the other pocket or flank I look down the line and there are no Demons leading out to the wings to kick to.

The other Friday I had to watch The Hawks demolish Fremantle by switching play and always kicking to a target that is always there on their own and running at full speed. My in laws are Hawks supporters! Last Saturday I sat up at the top of the Ponsford to look at how we run and set up and we just don't cover enough ground, quick enough for modern footy.

When we switch the ball to the opposite side around half back, there just has to be guys lining up downfield on the burst, that you immediately kick to. That is not happening at present, not sure why, lack of fitness? Lack of awareness? Don't know but if we get it right we will suddenly be very competitive because we have possession.

[Return to Glory 7,748]

Robbie yes that is part of it. Especially watching us last week against GWS we basically coughed up any chance of winning in the last quarter and a half because we kept kicking out from points to the same point. No one spread out the other way to at least spread the Giants. No we all congregated on the one wing and the Giants just lined up behind and wide of us, waiting to get the ball, then kicked forward yet again for another point before they finally started to kick straight.

But what I am also referring to is our inability to anticipate the switch over from the full back line when our backs, gain possession and decide to switch over to the other flank because one side is flooded. When we pass over to the other pocket or flank I look down the line and there are no Demons leading out to the wings to kick to.

The other Friday I had to watch The Hawks demolish Fremantle by switching play and always kicking to a target that is always there on their own and running at full speed. My in laws are Hawks supporters! Last Saturday I sat up at the top of the Ponsford to look at how we run and set up and we just don't cover enough ground, quick enough for modern footy.

When we switch the ball to the opposite side around half back, there just has to be guys lining up downfield on the burst, that you immediately kick to. That is not happening at present, not sure why, lack of fitness? Lack of awareness? Don't know but if we get it right we will suddenly be very competitive because we have possession.

So, if I have this correct, and forgive me for paraphrasing, but you think we're going to hammer the Suns? Same.

[Macca 16,173]

Robbie yes that is part of it. Especially watching us last week against GWS we basically coughed up any chance of winning in the last quarter and a half because we kept kicking out from points to the same point. No one spread out the other way to at least spread the Giants. No we all congregated on the one wing and the Giants just lined up behind and wide of us, waiting to get the ball, then kicked forward yet again for another point before they finally started to kick straight.

But what I am also referring to is our inability to anticipate the switch over from the full back line when our backs, gain possession and decide to switch over to the other flank because one side is flooded. When we pass over to the other pocket or flank I look down the line and there are no Demons leading out to the wings to kick to.

The other Friday I had to watch The Hawks demolish Fremantle by switching play and always kicking to a target that is always there on their own and running at full speed. My in laws are Hawks supporters! Last Saturday I sat up at the top of the Ponsford to look at how we run and set up and we just don't cover enough ground, quick enough for modern footy.

When we switch the ball to the opposite side around half back, there just has to be guys lining up downfield on the burst, that you immediately kick to. That is not happening at present, not sure why, lack of fitness? Lack of awareness? Don't know but if we get it right we will suddenly be very competitive because we have possession.

The Hawks train as they play and they're very fit. That 30 metre bullet pass that they employ in games can only work if all their players are prepared to run to position (constantly)

It sounds simple and in some ways it is. You can't have one lazy player though - otherwise it all breaks down. Oh, and you need supreme kicking skills from all the players.

Simple really

[Earl Hood 5,789]

So, if I have this correct, and forgive me for paraphrasing, but you think we're going to hammer the Suns? Same.

RTG I mostly love your work but on this occasion you should check your ticket, I think you are on the wrong tram! Don't think I ever mentioned the Suns.

[P-man 13,224]

• While I was sceptical of the Howe/Frawley switch initially, I am fully converted now. Chip was super impressive with his judgement in the air and his hands while playing in front (which were my key concerns). His mobility and strength makes him a very dangerous CHF in the modern game as he is good at both leading up at the ball carrier and can burn his man off running back to goal. He is also a bull when the ball is on the ground. Howe looks the goods down back also and Tom McDonald has stood up well as the main defender in the last two weeks.
• I also now see Georgiou as a lock in our back six, so it will be interesting to see how we match up when Garland and Hogan are fully fit. A key issue will be who plays as the second ruckman, because Pederson will likely make way for Garland in the back six despite a reasonable last couple of games.
• I would like to see Toumpas come in for Terlich and play down back.
• I would consider playing Garland as the sub next week.
• JKH isn’t quite ready yet and needs to put on some size. He needs to improve his ability in the air to become a decent AFL player. He isn’t in my best 22 and I would give Salem a go because Byrnes and Blease have the same issues.
• We played more direct footy on Saturday. I am sure Roos has been driving this and it gave our forwards a real chance. Dawes and Dunn are smart and experienced forwards and gave plenty of space to Chip.
• Playing Jones as a tagger/defender was a good move and it should be tried again in the future. (I think McKenzie to Ablett at the beginning makes more sense this week though.)

Ins: Toumpas, Salem, Garland (sub)

Outs: Terlich, JKH, Evans

Some pretty crazy changes tbh.

Kidding on JKH, surely. His score involvements alone justified him keeping his spot.

More than happy for Toumpas and Salem to spend another week or two at Casey and make them really earn a spot. We are in a position this week where you make minimal changes, if any at all.

[Return to Glory 7,748]

RTG I mostly love your work but on this occasion you should check your ticket, I think you are on the wrong tram! Don't think I ever mentioned the Suns.

Sorry VH. A feeble attempt to illustrate my over excitement after one win. FWIW, we don't have enough elite kicks or decision makers in the back half IMO.

[Earl Hood 5,789]

The Hawks train as they play and they're very fit. That 30 metre bullet pass that they employ in games can only work if all their players are prepared to run to position (constantly)

It sounds simple and in some ways it is. You can't have one lazy player though - otherwise it all breaks down. Oh, and you need supreme kicking skills from all the players.

Simple really

Kramer, sorry Macca I have watched us play as well and gee I wish we could play as we train because we look a million dollars at training. But unfortunately on game day the witches hats move and tackle people. Then we go from elite to pedestrian. Not sure how the Hawks make it always work for them.

[Return to Glory 7,748]

Kramer, sorry Macca I have watched us play as well and gee I wish we could play as we train because we look a million dollars at training. But unfortunately on game day the witches hats move and tackle people. Then we go from elite to pedestrian. Not sure how the Hawks make it always work for them.

For starters, they ( Hawks, Cats) are very rarely static. If they kick across ground, more often than not its to space for the players to run into. Often, we kick across ground to a stationary player. And that, in part, is a confidence thing.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Return to Glory

[Macca 16,173]

Kramer, sorry Macca I have watched us play as well and gee I wish we could play as we train because we look a million dollars at training. But unfortunately on game day the witches hats move and tackle people. Then we go from elite to pedestrian. Not sure how the Hawks make it always work for them.

Yep, it's frustrating but hopefully, we'll start running harder in games sooner rather than later. We're starting to show some signs and it was noticeable how we outran the Blues on Saturday. It seemed that way anyway. Carlton were the ones who looked lazy.

Not so sure about our overall kicking skills but it does look as though we've started to recruit more players who can kick a footy. It's long overdue IMO. Salem, Tyson, Vince, Cross, JKH and Michie all kick the ball quite well. Salem especially so although he's yet to do it in the big time. Not sure on Riley but someone here will know. Clisby is another who is a decent kick.

I've heard at various times that the Hawks look closely at the kicking skills of a prospective recruit and after drafting them, teach them the "Hawthorn way" (to go in hard for the ball when it's their turn or win their own ball)

[Earl Hood 5,789]

For starters, they ( Hawks, Cats) are very rarely static. If they kick across ground, more often than not its to space for the players to run into. Often, we kick across ground to a stationary player. And that, in part, is a confidence thing.

RTG I think we agree. My observation is our inability to run into space looking for the pass. I suppose the Hawks do it so well because they trust their players down back to win the ball in a contest and then go forward, get clear and have time to pick out a target.

Whereas our backs will get possession and just kick it clear to wherever and then it becomes a contest and often comes straight back.

[Return to Glory 7,748]

RTG I think we agree. My observation is our inability to run into space looking for the pass. I suppose the Hawks do it so well because they trust their players down back to win the ball in a contest and then go forward, get clear and have time to pick out a target.

Whereas our backs will get possession and just kick it clear to wherever and then it becomes a contest and often comes straight back.

Ok VH, this is my last sensible comment on the matter. Sides that are struggling all pile in for the pill. It's almost the refuge of the overly desperate side. The best example for me was when we played Brisbane round 1 last year. At least I think it was last year. Even if you look at Carlton, their spread is non existent. Edited April 14, 2014 by Return to Glory

[dpositive 1,552]

Robbie yes that is part of it. Especially watching us last week against GWS we basically coughed up any chance of winning in the last quarter and a half because we kept kicking out from points to the same point. No one spread out the other way to at least spread the Giants. No we all congregated on the one wing and the Giants just lined up behind and wide of us, waiting to get the ball, then kicked forward yet again for another point before they finally started to kick straight.

But what I am also referring to is our inability to anticipate the switch over from the full back line when our backs, gain possession and decide to switch over to the other flank because one side is flooded. When we pass over to the other pocket or flank I look down the line and there are no Demons leading out to the wings to kick to.

The other Friday I had to watch The Hawks demolish Fremantle by switching play and always kicking to a target that is always there on their own and running at full speed. My in laws are Hawks supporters! Last Saturday I sat up at the top of the Ponsford to look at how we run and set up and we just don't cover enough ground, quick enough for modern footy.

When we switch the ball to the opposite side around half back, there just has to be guys lining up downfield on the burst, that you immediately kick to. That is not happening at present, not sure why, lack of fitness? Lack of awareness? Don't know but if we get it right we will suddenly be very competitive because we have possession.

I only get to watch on TV and this is what I see other sides do.

Kick in front of or to a moving player to a space that he is in or going to and the overlap as Bruce usually calls it happens.

[jackaub 1,402]

Some pretty crazy changes tbh.

Kidding on JKH, surely. His score involvements alone justified him keeping his spot.

More than happy for Toumpas and Salem to spend another week or two at Casey and make them really earn a spot. We are in a position this week where you make minimal changes, if any at all.

I'm with you P man Minimal changes All have to earn their spot. The current team has earned theirs

[jackaub 1,402]

Ok VH, this is my last sensible comment on the matter. Sides that are struggling all pile in for the pill. It's almost the refuge of the overly desperate side. The best example for me was when we played Brisbane round 1 last year. At least I think it was last year. Even if you look at Carlton, their spread is non existent.

Well I believe we are winning the pill down back in particular contested and should continue to do so Maybe even more consistently so trust will build

[titan_uranus 22,524]

• While I was sceptical of the Howe/Frawley switch initially, I am fully converted now. Chip was super impressive with his judgement in the air and his hands while playing in front (which were my key concerns). His mobility and strength makes him a very dangerous CHF in the modern game as he is good at both leading up at the ball carrier and can burn his man off running back to goal. He is also a bull when the ball is on the ground. Howe looks the goods down back also and Tom McDonald has stood up well as the main defender in the last two weeks.
• I also now see Georgiou as a lock in our back six, so it will be interesting to see how we match up when Garland and Hogan are fully fit. A key issue will be who plays as the second ruckman, because Pederson will likely make way for Garland in the back six despite a reasonable last couple of games.
• I would like to see Toumpas come in for Terlich and play down back.
• I would consider playing Garland as the sub next week.
• JKH isn’t quite ready yet and needs to put on some size. He needs to improve his ability in the air to become a decent AFL player. He isn’t in my best 22 and I would give Salem a go because Byrnes and Blease have the same issues.
• We played more direct footy on Saturday. I am sure Roos has been driving this and it gave our forwards a real chance. Dawes and Dunn are smart and experienced forwards and gave plenty of space to Chip.
• Playing Jones as a tagger/defender was a good move and it should be tried again in the future. (I think McKenzie to Ablett at the beginning makes more sense this week though.)

Ins: Toumpas, Salem, Garland (sub)

Outs: Terlich, JKH, Evans

So you won't play JKH because he's young, inexperienced, and undersized, but you'll play Salem, despite him being young, inexperienced, and undersized?

[Fat Tony 4,447]

So you won't play JKH because he's young, inexperienced, and undersized, but you'll play Salem, despite him being young, inexperienced, and undersized?

JKH is 173cm and 68kg.

Salem is 183cm and 81kg.

And where did I mention young and inexperienced?

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

Speedy forward playing inside 50 who can kick a goal and has a defensive side to his game, I think we should play him.

[DeeSpencer 23,237]

JKH is 173cm and 68kg.

Salem is 183cm and 81kg.

And where did I mention young and inexperienced?

I know it's listed as a 13kg difference but weight wise they are both skinny and lack muscle mass and strength. Height wise Salem has a definite advantage but if we are kicking long and high to either JKH or Salem they aren't expected to win the contest. For now I'd rather JKH because I know he can run to present and run to chase and tackle. Salem needs to do a bit more at VFL level until he tells me he's ready for the AFL intensity.

[titan_uranus 22,524]

JKH is 173cm and 68kg.

Salem is 183cm and 81kg.

And where did I mention young and inexperienced?

Just because JKH is smaller doesn't mean Salem isn't also undersized. He's 81kg FFS.

Well I figured 'isn't quite ready yet' had something to do with experience. Sorry if I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[DeeSpencer 23,237]

By the way Matt Jones still stands out above a lot of his team mates for his attacking run in his midfield play. He runs like Port players do when they force a turnover he's always off on his bike looking for the next kick or handball and thus creating space for others. Not sure about his defensive running but as the Mark Neeld game plan showed if you aren't moving in forward then defense wont work much.

2 things we need to be a better side in terms of the running Viscount was talking about is more people running for the ball like Jones and more people running with the ball like Viney did.

Of course win the ball at the contest, defend well and use the ball well are still the basics behind any plan but it was just something to note from Matt Jones and Viney that had me noticing their games.

[Fat Tony 4,447]

I know it's listed as a 13kg difference but weight wise they are both skinny and lack muscle mass and strength. Height wise Salem has a definite advantage but if we are kicking long and high to either JKH or Salem they aren't expected to win the contest. For now I'd rather JKH because I know he can run to present and run to chase and tackle. Salem needs to do a bit more at VFL level until he tells me he's ready for the AFL intensity.

At the very least a small forward still has to be able to get the ball to ground in a one on one versus his direct opponent. The game has changed with the press and Byrnes and JKH have been found wanting in marking contests many times this year. JKH may improve this area of his game but as yet IMO we would be better off going with the bigger Salem.