POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[rpfc 28,391]

We were just not good enough.

You can come up with all the excuse you want.

The score board says the Saints won

end of story.

When do reasons become excuses?

Do you want to involve yourself in analysis or are you only in this thread to point out to people - who think we should have won that game had we kicked straight - that we didn't win the game?

[jnrmac 20,060]

I don't understand why so many people are too stupid to understand this very fundamental issue.

Really? Name the players that Melbourne could have attracted so that we can pay 100% of the salary cap? They are queueing up to play for melbourne aren't they. I noticed the line outside our offices pre-draft of all the gun players that were itching to play for the Dees.

Or are you suggesting that we simply pay our existing players more?

Either way I suspect its you that doesn't understand.

[sue 9,102]

I reckon if our half our players were hit by a meteorite during the warm-up and someone here dared to give that as a reason we lost the game, they'd be howled down for just making excuses.

[13thFlagIsComing 542]

Watched the game from level 3 behind the goals and these were some of my observations.

-Outside of a couple of missed marks and his shot on goal, Pedersen worked his backside off pushing up the ground and up the wings to provide the lead up option. He was ignored most of the time (except the one where he dropped the mark 40 metres out on the flank) as he didn't create enough space (unlike the St. Kilda skipper who has the aerobic capacity to make space) for our guys to kick into. Didn't get much of the ball but did a lot off it.

- A point that has already been drawn out but the overuse of handball across half back was justified as there was no tall forwards to kick to. Demon fans around me were getting frustrated with this overuse of the football (thanks Grimes and Tyson - Supercoach points!) but wouldn't you rather keep posession and wait for an option rather than turn it over? Speaking of turnovers...

- Frawley turnover (and resulting goal to the Saints) was down to the fact he was running too fast for the ball. We tried the quick transition doewn the middle only a few times (as we seemed to run the ball down the sides of the square rather than through it) and this will be improved upon as the team is exposed to more gameday pressure.

-Jack Watt's vision and patience was on show tonight. Once again suppporters around me were scraeming at Watts to go the first option but were shown up when he hit his target 96% of the time for the night. Best example was the third quarter i think on the broadcast side of the ground, Watts sidestepped two Saints, held onto the ball and pin pointed a pass to someone (coudn't remember who it was) on the forward flank. Pure class.

[Akum 2,660]

Seriously? They had Riewoldt, Dempster and, well, now I'm struggling. They had a rookie upgrade tear us a new one. That's like us bringing Jetta and him having 20 touches.

We should have given them a bath and the fact that we were so close when we were so absolutely rooted cattle wise, and still should have won, is enough for us all to drop the excuses.

Flat out, we should have won.

Well, sort of.

We had enormous obstacles to overcome to win this game, after halfway thru the first qtr.

Despite that, we got ourselves into a position to win it.

In the end, we "didn't know how to win it".

Overcoming the obstacles - great!

Playing well enough that we should have won - great!

But not winning cancels all that out.

There was a lot of good, and a lot of bad.

But it wasn't all bad. And it wasn't all good.

[drdrake 3,163]

I think we can all agree that our best 22 is an OK AFL team, the problem is outside that we have some very average players that shouldn't be playing at AFL. The difference on Saturday night was the bad turnovers, turnovers that we should had been scoring but resulted in a Saint Kilda goal. Toumpas in the first quarter should have hit Watts 35m out directly in front, he kicks it 15m short under no pressure, Saints kick there first, we could have put them away in the first quarter but that goal sent us back into our shell. We need to hit that kick and until we can we will struggle.

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

yeah agree with that.

for the first time in years our clearance handball from packs went more than 3 metres,and it looked very good.

swicth over play seemed much better and we hardly got into the lock down phase.

looking forward i thought our play was better than its ever been{6 years}and the PR style showed out.

doesnt help when mac,dunn,fitz all cop injuries and we also are covering,garland,hogan,jamar and mitch.

really good effort and terlich didnt turn over as many possies as he normally does.

midfield clearance from packs,very good.

learning to give the pill to the better deliverers will be another step.

all in all,i was rapt driving home with good thoughts about the expected style the coach has bought to the club.

looking forward to a good year.i wouldnt knock,pederson and dunn ,they filled holes and thats what listed players are meant to do,its just unfortunate that we had so many better listed players out.

why do people keep insisting on including jamar in their list of key players missing??!!, FMD, you guys have short memories! can you not remember his string of 0 and 1 posession games last year with 20 hitouts to nobody. the guy is a dud who fluked 1 good season FOUR years ago! jesus christ guys!!

also, why is grimes not copping flack in this thread? he was deplorable saturday night. countless occasions of poor skill errors adn selling teammates in to trouble. the biggest liability of a captain in the league. is VFL standard and am sick of seeing him listed to play. Get Clisby in there and get some experience in to him. That [censored] handball to frawley at CHF that resulted in a turnover and goal to the saints sums up grimes for me. should not be captain and should def not be an automatic inclusion.

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

And a predictable response

its an absolute disgrace that grimes is still captain. im sure hes a gentleman however

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,780]

Tell that to Geelong in the 2008 GF.

And The Tassie/Waverley Hawks in 2012.

[jazza 1,323]

its an absolute disgrace that grimes is still captain. im sure hes a gentleman however

im sure it has been said many times.

my quote has been that hes a gravedigger and will stick to that.

got no probs with him being in the team and capt.

as for jamar,being a listed player with good experience,i think he is needed at least match fit for the club,spence,max, fitzy need him, hellping, thought saturday night showed this,especially when another tall was needed forward to at least show up as a target, MJ wouldve played centre bounces and fitz/spence couldve presented forward.

but your opinion is respected.

Edited March 23, 2014 by jazza

[Fat Tony 5,228]

Really? Name the players that Melbourne could have attracted so that we can pay 100% of the salary cap? They are queueing up to play for melbourne aren't they. I noticed the line outside our offices pre-draft of all the gun players that were itching to play for the Dees.

Or are you suggesting that we simply pay our existing players more?

Either way I suspect its you that doesn't understand.

We should be paying the full cap and sacrificing in other areas. It is only about $500K, but it makes a big difference because of the cumulative effect.

Personally I would have tried to get Dustin Martin, Andrejs Everitt, Shane Mumford, Jed Lamb or Mark Blicavs in the PSD with above market offers. If we couldn't land a player, we should be front loading the contracts of players like Vince, Dawes, Clark, Pederson, Jamar and Tyson. (i.e. any player on big money unable to become a free agent.)

[InVINCEable 358]

http://fansmvp.melbournefc.com.au/vote/round

[Scoop Junior 3,471]

I suppose the most frustrating thing for me (and I'm sure many others) is that we start a new season with a really winnable game and a chance to have a really enjoyable start to the season.

However, as has been our luck recently, we go into the game without our 3 key forwards and 2 best ruckmen, lose our next best key forward and the defender marking the opposition's best player to injury before half time, and to top it all off we waste chances in front of goal.

If there was a game it would've been nice to go in with close to a full strength side and not cop mid-game injuries, it was this one. Unfortunately the circumstances conspired against us and we are left with that familiar feeling of disappointment.

That said, there's no doubt we put in an ordinary performance on the night. There were individual highlights (Watts, Jones, Dunn, Vince at times, Tyson at times) but as a team is wasn't a great performance. To lose the contested possession and clearance statistics against a really weak midfield was really disappointing, as was our lack of pressure in the front half of the ground and what I perceived to be a stronger attack on the ball and man by the Saints. None of those factors are influenced by missing talls.

Let's hope we can improve on that this weekend because we will need to play a lot better to even be competitive with West Coast.

[InVINCEable 358]

We should be paying the full cap and sacrificing in other areas. It is only about $500K, but it makes a big difference because of the cumulative effect.

Personally I would have tried to get Dustin Martin, Andrejs Everitt, Shane Mumford, Jed Lamb or Mark Blicavs in the PSD with above market offers. If we couldn't land a player, we should be front loading the contracts of players like Vince, Dawes, Clark, Pederson, Jamar and Tyson. (i.e. any player on big money unable to become a free agent.)

Martin I would have liked to see but he'd be a quick fix and then quickly destroy melbourne from the inside, Lamb would have been good, Mumford didn't want to leave Sydney, Everitt lel no thanks, and Blicavs would have been alright, but Darren Jolly would have been bloody good! would have been good for Spencer, Fitzy and Gawn

Pedersen better pick up his game if he wants another contract

[InVINCEable 358]

I suppose the most frustrating thing for me (and I'm sure many others) is that we start a new season with a really winnable game and a chance to have a really enjoyable start to the season.

However, as has been our luck recently, we go into the game without our 3 key forwards and 2 best ruckmen, lose our next best key forward and the defender marking the opposition's best player to injury before half time, and to top it all off we waste chances in front of goal.

If there was a game it would've been nice to go in with close to a full strength side and not cop mid-game injuries, it was this one. Unfortunately the circumstances conspired against us and we are left with that familiar feeling of disappointment.

That said, there's no doubt we put in an ordinary performance on the night. There were individual highlights (Watts, Jones, Dunn, Vince at times, Tyson at times) but as a team is wasn't a great performance. To lose the contested possession and clearance statistics against a really weak midfield was really disappointing, as was our lack of pressure in the front half of the ground and what I perceived to be a stronger attack on the ball and man by the Saints. None of those factors are influenced by missing talls.

Let's hope we can improve on that this weekend because we will need to play a lot better to even be competitive with West Coast.

It wasn't our midfielders fault! they delivered it to the forward line and we were relying on them for goals!

Want to blame anyone blame our "kpf" Pedersen! could have one the game off his boot alone

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

One swallow does not make a spring, nor one match a reason for despair or elation. One theme of those who are depressed by last night is that we couldn't beat a depleted St Kilda which it is well known to be a basket case like us. But where is the hard evidence for that? They have just won 3 in a row I heard a commentator say - (admittedly one against a tanking team but with players not wishing to gamble with their form before finals). When did we last do that? St Kilda may well surprise some who have written them off over summer.

I'll wait for more of the season to unfold before making any conclusions. When we have some talls in and see how we go against teams which are shown by results, not media waffle, to be also struggling and how we stand up against the mediocre and good teams, we'll be in a better position to judge.

thats what i keep telling the Wife

[binman 42,908]

Some thoughts now that i've calmed down a bit:

• It was truly woeful match and a very poor performance by the dees - what a waste of $25
• After the first couple of goals we looked hesitant and nervous, in contrast to the tigers game where we looked much freerer
• Often we seemed to forget our possession game and went forward when there wasn't a good options, rather than holding it and chipping it around - Jones was the worst culprit at this. This played into their hand with the loose back man they employed
• Jones played with heart but made some terrible errors in the first half and should have kicked the goal he missed - we desperately need a captains goal
• Howe was awful and his miss in the third was crucial
• Roos made a big blue leaving McDonald on - i couldn't believe it. At one point he was remonstrating with a trainer and was clearly distressed
• I also thought Roos made a blue withe his forward structure. I wondered why he didn't try to isolate Howe deep in the square and just authorize him to fly for speccys. Also even though it would have robbed Peter to pay Paul i would have loved to seen him try Dunn up forward in the last quarter. We needed goals and Dunn is an excellent contested mark and kick and has played most of his football up forward. Yes that would have exposed us up back but as i say we weren't going to win without taking some risks. it also would have brought JKH into the game
• If Gawn was fit enough to play at Casey he was fit enough to play for the dees. Should have selected him
• Dunn is a gun - have never understood the bagging he has often received on DL over the years
• Frawley made two critical errors in particular his missed handball receive at CHF. Yes it was hot but it was straight to him and they practice taking hot handballs all the time. The goal they got gave them the momentum and we never got it back. His helicopter kick to Byres tat got cut off by Reiwoldt was nearly as bad
• The Toump played well (not great) and did the job asked of him by Roos. Showed courage on a number of occasions and is a smart, natural footballer
• What did we have to do to get a holding the ball decision? I could not believe they didn't ping Gwilt - cost us a goal (it was 20 metres out) and any chance of winning
• The other critical umpiring error was the in the back against the Toump on the HFF. He used his body beautifully to get his player under the ball and would have run free into a vacant 50 yet was pinged. Terrible decision. I thought they softened the rule this year to allow more body contact in the marking contest. Perhaps it only applies to Cloke?
• Watts was as classy as i've seen a Melbourne player for a long time. But yes needs to attack the player with the ball more often. Perhaps he avoids physical contact but i reckon a big factor is his basket ball background. My son took up BB after years of playing footy and really struggled not to go at the player with the ball. His coaches have constantly tried to get him to hold back and corral more. Watts first instinct seems to be to do the same thing. It's hard to retrain that sort of instinctual reaction. Compare that to Viney who's instinct is to always go at the player. It must be said that sometimes corralling works and creates a turnover but there was a couple of occasions where Watts should have gone hard an low and instead allowed another player to do so
• I'm no Byrnes fan but i reckon some of the criticism of his game is a bit rough. He played his role acceptably. If he is selected again next week we can assume Roos agrees. If not well the opposite is true.
• Our inaccuracy was appalling - perfect conditions and it 100% correct that poor kicking is poor football
• Did i say it was a woeful match and poor performance by us?
• Will i be there again next week? Yes

Edited March 24, 2014 by binman

[13thFlagIsComing 542]

Jamar up forward next week, rotating with Gawn?

[InVINCEable 358]

Some thoughts now that i've calmed down a bit:

• It was truly woeful match and a very poor performance by the dees - what a waste of $25
• After the first couple of goals we looked hesitant and nervous, in contrast to the tigers game where we looked much freerer
• Often we seemed to forget our possession game and went forward when there wasn't a good options, rather than holding it and chipping it around - Jones was the worst culprit at this. This played into their hand with the loose back man they employed
• Jones played with heart but made some terrible errors in the first half and should have kicked the goal he missed - we desperately need a captains goal
• Howe was awful and his miss in the third was crucial
• Roos made a big blue leaving McDonald on - i couldn't believe it. At one point he was remonstrating with a trainer and was clearly distressed
• I also thought Roos made a blue withe his forward structure. I wondered why he didn't try to isolate Howe deep in the square and just authorize him to fly for speccys. Also even though it would have robbed Peter to pay Paul i would have loved to seen him try Dunn up forward in the last quarter. We needed goals and Dunn is an excellent contested mark and kick and has played most of his football up forward. Yes that would have exposed us up back but as i say we weren't going to win without taking some risks. it also would have brought JKH into the game
• If Gawn was fit enough to play at Casey he was fit enough to play for the dees. Should have selected him
• Dunn is a gun - have never understood the bagging he has often received on DL over the years
• Frawley made two critical errors in particular his missed handball receive at CHF. Yes it was hot but it was straight to him and they practice taking hot handballs all the time. The goal they got gave them the momentum and we never got it back. His helicopter kick to Byres tat got cut off by Reiwoldt was nearly as bad
• The Toump played well (not great) and did the job asked of him by Roos. Showed courage on a number of occasions and is a smart, natural footballer
• What did we have to do to get a holding the ball decision? I could not believe they didn't ping Gwilt - cost us a goal (it was 20 metres out) and any chance of winning
• The other critical umpiring error was the in the back against the Toump on the HFF. He used his body beautifully to get his player under the ball and would have run free into a vacant 50 yet was pinged. Terrible decision. I thought they softened the rule this year to allow more body contact in the marking contest. Perhaps it only applies to Cloke?
• Watts was as classy as i've seen a Melbourne player for a long time. But yes needs to attack the player with the ball more often. Perhaps he avoids physical contact but i reckon a big factor is his basket ball background. My son took up BB after years of playing footy and really struggled not to go at the player with the ball. His coaches have constantly tried to get him to hold back and corral more. Watts first instinct seems to be to do the same thing. It's hard to retrain that sort of instinctual reaction. Compare that to Viney who's instinct is to always go at the player. It must be said that sometimes corralling works and creates a turnover but there was a couple of occasions where Watts should have gone hard an low and instead allowed another player to do so
• I'm no Byrnes fan but i reckon some of the criticism of his game is a bit rough. He played his role acceptably. If he is selected again next week we can assume Roos agrees. If not well the opposite is true.
• Our inaccuracy was appalling - perfect conditions and it 100% correct that poor kicking is poor football
• Did i say it was a woeful match and poor performance by us?
• Will i be there again next week? Yes

Oh but no didn't you hear the St Kilda supporters? the umpiring was great man

[KingDingAling 3,757]

Jamar up forward next week, rotating with Gawn?

Sounds good in theory, but Jamar is scared of kicking.

Never have I seen a player scared to kick a football - enter Mark Jamar.

[InVINCEable 358]

Jamar up forward next week, rotating with Gawn?

I'm a Jamar fanboy but my brother has finally woke me up, he's overrated by us dees supporters he's had one good year, which was a great year don't get me wrong but we need him out of there, trade him to Brisbane so he can be back with Moloney get a third round pick out of it, he's a terrific bloke though.

And last place he needs to be is up forward i remember being at the Melbourne v Collingwood draw he missed the easiest snap in history

[jnrmac 20,060]

We should be paying the full cap and sacrificing in other areas. It is only about $500K, but it makes a big difference because of the cumulative effect.

Personally I would have tried to get Dustin Martin, Andrejs Everitt, Shane Mumford, Jed Lamb or Mark Blicavs in the PSD with above market offers. If we couldn't land a player, we should be front loading the contracts of players like Vince, Dawes, Clark, Pederson, Jamar and Tyson. (i.e. any player on big money unable to become a free agent.)

What tripe are you espousing? The cumulative effect? WTF is that?

And Jed Lamb and Blicavs are superstars are they? Dusty would be a great pick up - no club wanted him as he is an accident waiting to happen.

And front loading contracts has worked out well for us hasn't it? Frawley is not in the top 25% of paid players and can walk at years end.

Any more bright ideas?

[jazza 1,323]

jnrmac, love your approach and common sense thinking.

but you need to get a stray cat for times like this,{gotta kick something}

most strong well run clubs would have offered chip a new contract last year,and this situation wouldnt arise.

[ManDee 7,134]

On a positive note. We lost to the wooden spoon favorite and yet we are better than last year. Currently 11th

[Fat Tony 5,228]

What tripe are you espousing? The cumulative effect? WTF is that?

And Jed Lamb and Blicavs are superstars are they? Dusty would be a great pick up - no club wanted him as he is an accident waiting to happen.

And front loading contracts has worked out well for us hasn't it? Frawley is not in the top 25% of paid players and can walk at years end.

Any more bright ideas?

5 of the last 12 flags have been won by clubs paying around 110% of the cap. We have been paying 92.5%-95% for the last seven years and have won between 2 and 8.5 games with a soft draw every year. The impact of the cap is obvious.

And front loading of contracts is not the reason for our predicament. It is bad recruiting and Mark Neeld.

On Frawley, the FA rules couldn't have been foreseen, but once they were introduced we should have shaped the other players contracts to ensure he was a RFA.