Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Demon Dynasty 15,413]

While I agree with many of your sentiments here, on what basis are judging that the drugs regime benefited the players back in 2012 and continues to do so today?

The program appears to have commened in early 2012 and the dubious elements were halted with the departure of Robinson and Dank in August 2012, the results during that time under Robinson (and Dank) was dubious at best...soft tissue injuries and performance fade outs in the 2nd half of the season.

It's now over 18 months since the supplements program has gone and if anything the fallout and uncertainty from the program would have been a net detraction for the players. In fact many of them are wondering what benefits it did bring. How could a short term program of no more than 7 months in duration be able to deliver "benefits" to participants 18 months after the last program supplement was given?

We have no idea what effects or benefits, if any, where delt to players as there is apparantly no record (according to Club/AFL officials... and contrary to Dank's version) of what was taken, how much was taken and when/where it was administered.

While i agree, the initial benefits (if any) may have worn off, those same potential benefits may have particularly assisted and fast tracked the younger less developed players within the playing group to retain and maintain their size increase (if there was one) from a much higher starting base than had they not allegedly taken named substances.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Rusty Nails

[jnrmac 18,954]

A lot of these drugs help supposedly help strength and recovery times. Recovery times allow for greater intensity and time of training.

Strength would still be a benefit a year down the track. The training loads have already been done so yes they would still be benefitting from the drug regime even today.

[Whispering_Jack 27,970]

I think the AFL should be congratulated for ensuring that half the team didn't receive infraction notices, quarantining the issue to last season only, enabling Essendrug to field a full team (along with recruiting multi premiership experience in Chappy and Captain playing, who publicly admitted taking said banned substance) and are still kicking ass this year.

Congrats to Vlad and co.

And that is the essence of the problem, isn't it? ASADA's big mistake in all of this was that it trusted a completely untrustworthy AFL to be involved with it in the initial stages of the investigation. It was a mistake and I think it's no co-incidence that the leaks of information stopped at the precise point where the AFL's involvement. One hopes that with the aid of Judge Downes, the ASADA investigation can reach a proper conclusion and that all offenders against the world anti doping code are required to face the consequences of their actions.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Hi Rhino. Try reading my post again. I made no judgement but simply used the word "possibly" which means that there could be a possibility that players who were injected with a huge number of doses of these supposedly unknown substances that might have included human growth hormones could have long lasting effects. We don't exactly know because according to the Essendon Football Club the dog ate their homework.

Thanks Jack. Read it the first time and got your drift. When you were "strongly of the opinion" I thought you were basing it on more than just the unknown unknowns.

18 months down the track?? There is evidence that the Club had acquired supplements, some legal some not so. Which of the legal ones gives you at least an 18 month or more kicker on performance, strength and other attributes critical for AFL?

I would have thought the footballing benefit of the supplement program was more focused on short term objectives of quicker injury recovery and maximising strength ( and strength maintenance would surely require a consistent program to complement the nature of strength training)

Edited March 29, 2014 by Rhino Richards

[dee-luded 2,958]

I agree with other posters about not wishing ill against Essendon players particularly in this thread where the focus really should be on the programme instituted by the Essendon Football Club and its servants and agents including Hird and Dank. They should not be allowed to get away with it, nor any player found to have benefitted by taking prohibited drugs. While I am strongly of the opinion that many of their players directly benefitted from their drugs regime (and possibly continue to do so to this very day as a result of its implementation in 2012) some of the comments above are plain stupid. If anything, the Bombers should be congratulated for their fine performance against the reigning premiers. If only, we could be so competitive against the same standard of opposition on a regular basis.

the players themselves don't wish harm on anyone, irrespective of the jumpers.

the club & moreso the attitudes of those in charge, are the ones who brought this carp on the league, & the win at all costs attitudes prevailing sport today.

Edited March 29, 2014 by dee-luded

[beelzebub 22,225]

The win at all costs atitude is just as prevalent amongst those players who happily, blindly, enthusiastically or greedy of ambition participated without any further due dilligence of their own undertaking. Such caution is their resposibilty.

The players whilst possibly not all through stupidity are culpable and therefore guilty.

These players were happy enough to take whatever benefit or advantage this program offered. Well.. caveat emptor.

I have no sympathy for cheats.

They can be damned right alobgside their so called mentors.

[Hulett Packard III 166]

^

Agree. You can't let the players off the hook because they might have been stupid or misled. If it's proven they had prohibited substances injected into their bodies then they should pay the price.

[Sir Why You Little 34,443]

Why would you even fantasise about a player, any player regardless of who he is incurring such a terrible injury?

Officials at the Club should be hung for the drugs program but you think its justice that a young player who was not even at the Club when the program happened to have an ACL.

As others have pointed out your repeated references to Essendrug are not witty but juvenile as well

Rivals in appropriateness and poor judgment Bubs appalling Jospeh Mengele analogy raised earlier in the thread.....but I doubt you'd understand why.

i can wish anything i want on that disgusting cheating organization. I certainly don't need your approval.

Any player who wears that jumper is fair game in my eyes.

They stink.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You're better than that, WYL.

Sorry jumbo you are mistaken by that. It's quite the opposite.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

Sorry jumbo you are mistaken by that. It's quite the opposite.

It's all good RR - I'm sure WYL doesn't mean it.

[Sir Why You Little 34,443]

Sorry jumbo you are mistaken by that. It's quite the opposite.

Go outside Rhino. The sun is shining...

[Cards13 9,117]

Go outside Rhino. The sun is shining...

Have a look in the mirror W goodness wishing injury on someone let alone to someone in there work place that may end there chosen work career is not a great look.

[jnrmac 18,954]

And that is the essence of the problem, isn't it? ASADA's big mistake in all of this was that it trusted a completely untrustworthy AFL to be involved with it in the initial stages of the investigation. It was a mistake and I think it's no co-incidence that the leaks of information stopped at the precise point where the AFL's involvement. One hopes that with the aid of Judge Downes, the ASADA investigation can reach a proper conclusion and that all offenders against the world anti doping code are required to face the consequences of their actions.

I wonder if that is like Worksafe relying on ASADA to conclude their investigation before getting involved??

[jazza 1,323]

And that is the essence of the problem, isn't it? ASADA's big mistake in all of this was that it trusted a completely untrustworthy AFL to be involved with it in the initial stages of the investigation. It was a mistake and I think it's no co-incidence that the leaks of information stopped at the precise point where the AFL's involvement. One hopes that with the aid of Judge Downes, the ASADA investigation can reach a proper conclusion and that all offenders against the world anti doping code are required to face the consequences of their actions.

thats a big statement,you just got the afl and asada as being corrupt organisations.

i would rather wait until april 15th final report before extolling the lack of virtue in these organisations.

actually i trust what vlad has said so far in this case.

[Whispering_Jack 27,970]

thats a big statement,you just got the afl and asada as being corrupt organisations.

i would rather wait until april 15th final report before extolling the lack of virtue in these organisations.

actually i trust what vlad has said so far in this case.

No. I didn't suggest that either ASADA or the AFL were corrupt, just that it wasn't a good idea for ASADA (which I believe to be honest but heavily understaffed) to rely on the AFL's assistance.

Firstly, there's the question whether ASADA's charter allows it to bring outside bodies inside its own investigations. Next, I don't have confidence in the AFL's personnel starting with Demetriou and Fitzpatrick at the very top. The AFL leadership set a poor precedent in the tanking saga and in the compromised manner in which Demetriou dealt with the Scully/GWS issue. He was compromised over Essendon (and remains so over the disclosure of the impending announcement of an investigation into the Bombers over their supplements programme). There have been questions raised about the role of the AFL's investigations officer Clothier (the same officer whose methods and tactics were questioned on the tanking matter). Then there's the question of the competing interests of ASADA and the AFL which desperately wanted closure and, as a consequence we had an interim report which was only necessary because it suited the AFL. Then there were the leaks from the investigation which coincidentally stopped when the AFL's role ended and more recently, the publication of a report by AFL personnel in a British Medical Journal expressing opinions that were entirely unnecessary, unwarranted and unhelpful given the timing and the fact that the conclusions were based on an incomplete investigation. Not suggesting that the AFL is guilty as charged of everything it might be accused of or even of interference but it doesn't carry much faith with me based on its recent record of dealing with the many integrity issues it's been dealing with of late.

I hope that "final" report publication date of 15 April is correct. Notwithstanding, that date will not be the end of it but rather the end of the beginning of the end. If infractions issue as a result of the report there's probably a year of legal appeals, reviews and a date with the Court of Arbitration in Sport and this thread will extend to well over 400 pages, possibly rivaling the No T$, No B$ thread in size if not in the raw intellect of its content.

[jazza 1,323]

I hope that "final" report publication date of 15 April is correct. Notwithstanding, that date will not be the end of it but rather the end of the beginning of the end. If infractions issue as a result of the report there's probably a year of legal appeals, reviews and a date with the Court of Arbitration in Sport and this thread will extend to well over 400 pages, possibly rivaling the No T$, No B$ thread in size if not in the raw intellect of its content.

well i must have read it the wrong way,next time i will put my goggles on.

dont think this page will rival the NTSB thread,they have to many regulars over there with balding heads and time on their hands,.

asada are made up of typical soft office workers who dont do much,but what they do well is cross the tttts and dot the iiiis.

the longer it takes the better the outcome,but AFL interfearance ,i dont think so.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,031]

No. I didn't suggest that either ASADA or the AFL were corrupt, just that it wasn't a good idea for ASADA (which I believe to be honest but heavily understaffed) to rely on the AFL's assistance.

Firstly, there's the question whether ASADA's charter allows it to bring outside bodies inside its own investigations. Next, I don't have confidence in the AFL's personnel starting with Demetriou and Fitzpatrick at the very top. The AFL leadership set a poor precedent in the tanking saga and in the compromised manner in which Demetriou dealt with the Scully/GWS issue. He was compromised over Essendon (and remains so over the disclosure of the impending announcement of an investigation into the Bombers over their supplements programme). There have been questions raised about the role of the AFL's investigations officer Clothier (the same officer whose methods and tactics were questioned on the tanking matter). Then there's the question of the competing interests of ASADA and the AFL which desperately wanted closure and, as a consequence we had an interim report which was only necessary because it suited the AFL. Then there were the leaks from the investigation which coincidentally stopped when the AFL's role ended and more recently, the publication of a report by AFL personnel in a British Medical Journal expressing opinions that were entirely unnecessary, unwarranted and unhelpful given the timing and the fact that the conclusions were based on an incomplete investigation. Not suggesting that the AFL is guilty as charged of everything it might be accused of or even of interference but it doesn't carry much faith with me based on its recent record of dealing with the many integrity issues it's been dealing with of late.

I hope that "final" report publication date of 15 April is correct. Notwithstanding, that date will not be the end of it but rather the end of the beginning of the end. If infractions issue as a result of the report there's probably a year of legal appeals, reviews and a date with the Court of Arbitration in Sport and this thread will extend to well over 400 pages, possibly rivaling the No T$, No B$ thread in size if not in the raw intellect of its content.

Not much chance of that, although I guess it depends on what you mean by "raw"

[Red and Bluebeard 2,031]

well i must have read it the wrong way,next time i will put my goggles on.

dont think this page will rival the NTSB thread,they have to many regulars over there with balding heads and time on their hands,.

asada are made up of typical soft office workers who dont do much,but what they do well is cross the tttts and dot the iiiis.

the longer it takes the better the outcome,but AFL interfearance ,i dont think so.

As far as I know, you are one such regular jazza ...

[Hulett Packard III 166]

I agree, the fact that wowoedin won a brownlow while using Charter only rasies the eye brow slightly higher. If I was a supicious man (which I am) I would look at Hirds career with a level of scepticism (which I do) and wonder what was used while the ASADA/WADA regime was in its infancy compared to the available science.

So we should put an asterisk next to Essendon's premiership in 2000 and to our runners up award that year as well.

Who finished third?

[Whispering_Jack 27,970]

Somebody asked me in another thread if I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning but actually, I was in good spirits until I read this piece of unmitigated propagandist garbage masquerading as comment from Matthew Lloyd - Let the healing begin as Hird takes up Essendon reins.

Let the healing begin indeed!

Starting with healing the players into whose veins were injected thousands of doses of unknown substances most likely described by numbers, some of which had their origin down south of the border Mexico way and others (if we believe one of esteemed posters) named after Roman generals in Julius Caesar's army.

Lloydy, all I can say is -

Beware the Ides of April.

[Mister Ed 269]

Thanks Jack. Read it the first time and got your drift. When you were "strongly of the opinion" I thought you were basing it on more than just the unknown unknowns.

18 months down the track?? There is evidence that the Club had acquired supplements, some legal some not so. Which of the legal ones gives you at least an 18 month or more kicker on performance, strength and other attributes critical for AFL?

I would have thought the footballing benefit of the supplement program was more focused on short term objectives of quicker injury recovery and maximising strength ( and strength maintenance would surely require a consistent program to complement the nature of strength training)

Fact of the matter is that we have no idea what drugs these players took but we do know they signed waiver forms that mentioned a specific set of substances, some of them prohibited and others authorised for use. The concoction includes human growth hormones. It's been explained to me that the programme was designed to aid and fast track the healing capacity, recovery and development of players. This means that in the case of younger players it would have effectively fast tracked their physical development to a greater extent than the normal and natural methods applied at football clubs. On that basis, they were and will always remain cheats.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Fact of the matter is that we have no idea what drugs these players took but we do know they signed waiver forms that mentioned a specific set of substances, some of them prohibited and others authorised for use. The concoction includes human growth hormones. It's been explained to me that the programme was designed to aid and fast track the healing capacity, recovery and development of players. This means that in the case of younger players it would have effectively fast tracked their physical development to a greater extent than the normal and natural methods applied at football clubs. On that basis, they were and will always remain cheats.

It's ironic that you start with the "fact of the matter" then launch into a fantasy about what happened.

So where did they pick up the "Hulk Hogan" peptide that lasts for over 18 months? Does such a peptide actually exist and what actual evidence exists that such a peptide was used in short term focused program on injury recovery and healing? And even if one does exist ( I doubt it), why would EFC essentially have such chemicals in a players system for so long that it leaves them exposed to random drug testing. Just beggar any form of common sense.

Cronullas suspect program was based on a strength focused program for NRL and it involved regular treatments for players. So if there was a focus on strength for younger players, surely even advantage withers when the program stopped. And any strength benefits are dependent upon strength exercise programs that players for the past 20 months.

[beelzebub 22,225]

It's ironic that you start with the "fact of the matter" then launch into a fantasy about what happened.

Its ironic that you dont given credence to the turn of phrase but then choose to take it out of context.

hardly surprising...its is your credo

you yourself then suppose things but then redact... hypocrite

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Its ironic that you dont given credence to the turn of phrase but then choose to take it out of context.

hardly surprising...its is your credo

you yourself then suppose things but then redact... hypocrite

Achtung. You have shown yourself unable to grasp what has been happening at EFC without dribbling over the sordid possibilities.

And facts clearly aren't your line of business Herr commandant.

And irony last occurred when you labelled another poster " a pompous troll".

[Whispering_Jack 27,970]

It's ironic that you start with the "fact of the matter" then launch into a fantasy about what happened.

So where did they pick up the "Hulk Hogan" peptide that lasts for over 18 months? Does such a peptide actually exist and what actual evidence exists that such a peptide was used in short term focused program on injury recovery and healing? And even if one does exist ( I doubt it), why would EFC essentially have such chemicals in a players system for so long that it leaves them exposed to random drug testing. Just beggar any form of common sense.

Cronullas suspect program was based on a strength focused program for NRL and it involved regular treatments for players. So if there was a focus on strength for younger players, surely even advantage withers when the program stopped. And any strength benefits are dependent upon strength exercise programs that players for the past 20 months.

I think you've missed the point Rhino. He's not suggesting that the drug lasts 18 months but that there are programmes involving some of the substances mentioned that enable the physical development of players to be fast tracked whereas it might take two or three years of player development to get them to the same point by natural means - weights and diet.

You might recall that Carlton was extremely suspicious of how, after thrashing Essendon by 62 points in an elimination final in 2011, the Blues lost to them by 5 goals in a return match with the physical development of many young Bombers raising eyebrows. This prompted the visit by some Carlton people to the South Yarra compounding chemist to check out what the Bombers were on. I've been told the Blues were suspicious because they had been offered and rejected a programme by Dank.