Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[jnrmac 20,373]

  On 13/08/2014 at 02:48, Bedraggled Dee said:

Bottom line for me so far is that the AFL have created a bit of a dogs breakfast throughout ths investigation. They have tried to maniupulate the outcome and in doing so muddied the process and leaked like a seive. If they had taken the NRL approach and stood back and let ASADA get on with it we would not be here now.

I dont blame the AFL, they did what we should expect them to do and protect the competition and its clubs (including Essendon) but by pushing for the joint investgation and the interim report in a race to whack Essendon before the finals they made some mistakes. In hind sight they should have let the 2013 season play out and deal wit the fall out once the ASADA enquiry was done and dusted. If had taken that approach they would now be hung drawn and quartered for sitting in there hands and allowing this to drag out and not taking action earlier. They would just be in a better position legally.

The problem is the risk Ess might have won a final or two. Or worse, the flag. I can see why they didn't want that. They could have don eth bringing the game into disrepoute thing withut ASADA but likely wouldnt have got as bia sanctions. And FWIW I think the sanctions were pizzweak in any event.

  On 13/08/2014 at 02:45, Redleg said:

I see this as follows:

The very people most affected with the SCN's are not even parties. The Judge noted that early on. They have, despite being invited to be Parties by the Judge, declined to do so. That hurts Essendon and Hird badly in this case IMO.

This I think would almost be a killer blow in itself....

[binman 44,818]

I'm finding Warner a good laugh:

Warner tweeted: 'The facts have been damning, scandalous even, but the specific point of whether the law allows for a joint investigation is all that counts'.

Well at last he has got something right however this comment makes it all the more strange that he could be so adamant that the EFC and Hird are well ahead and will win the case.

He also tweeted: 'Could all rest on the delivery and or purpose of the interim report'. I can't see why that would be the case, particularly as it does not relate to the key issue, which as Warner notes himself, is whether ASADA acted within the law

[Ted Lasso 19,586]

Essendon's lawyer said that the if Essendon win this trial the players wouldn't give up the same evidence in interviews the second time around

this is a blatent attempt to get off on a technicality by a weak gutless mob of idiots, any respect for the Essendon football club is now gone, they are a begging child

I hope Middleton see's this for exactly what it is and overlooks any potential minor Issues from ASADA's point of view and allows Essendon football club to get what's coming to them

[Redleg 42,149]

  On 13/08/2014 at 06:41, Sir Paul Roos said:

Essendon's lawyer said that the if Essendon win this trial the players wouldn't give up the same evidence in interviews the second time around

What is he suggesting, lying or witholding evidence?

[binman 44,818]

  On 13/08/2014 at 06:45, Redleg said:

What is he suggesting, lying or witholding evidence?

From my reading of Chris K's tweets withholding in so far as they have a right to assert privilege:

Chris K: 'Young says though that the interviews won't be the same because players may assert privilege this time'

Note: the previous tweet (for context) was:

Middleton says problem he's worried about, making sure any order he makes doesn't prevent getting same information lawfully next time

[binman 44,818]

  On 13/08/2014 at 06:50, binman said:

From my reading of Chris K's tweets withholding in so far as asserting their right to assert privilege:

Chris K: 'Young says though that the interviews won't be the same because players may assert privilege this time'

Though isn't that a bit strange because the AFL have coersive power so presumably the AFL would redo the interviews (alone) and give the transcripts to ASADA ie players can only assert privilege if ASADA interview them

[sue 9,277]

  On 13/08/2014 at 06:52, binman said:

Though isn't that a bit strange because the AFL have coersive power so presumably the AFL would redo the interviews (alone) and give the transcripts to ASADA ie players can only assert privilege if ASADA interview them

Memory not was it was, or ever was, but wasn't the ASADA act (or whatever it is called) changed to give them coercive powers after all this began? If so how could the players answers differ from when the AFL applied the thumbscrews?

[TRIGON 4,821]

Revised Essendrug 2015 fixture

R1 V GWS (A) 4:40 pm Sunday, April 5th, Spotless Stadium

R2 V GCS (H) 4:40 pm, April 12, Betty Ford Stadium, Connecticut USA

R3 V WCE (A) 7:40 pm. April 17th, Patersons Stadium (yes, a Friday game but a short turnaround and a long flight)

R4 Anzac Day - BYE

etc etc etc

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

  On 13/08/2014 at 06:45, Redleg said:

What is he suggesting, lying or witholding evidence?

Is there another question that follows on from this, Redleg, namely: how does he know what is/will be in the players' minds at some future time?

In other words, can he say anything about what the players will do without already having an expectation that they will all collude not to give legitimately requested evidence? How does that expectation arise?

[daisycutter 30,017]

  On 13/08/2014 at 07:30, Dr John Dee said:

Is there another question that follows on from this, Redleg, namely: how does he know what is/will be in the players' minds at some future time?

In other words, can he say anything about what the players will do without already having an expectation that they will all collude not to give legitimately requested evidence? How does that expectation arise?

how can he speak for the players (who opted not to be part of these proceedings)

i'm sure that won't be lost on middleton

[chookrat 4,268]

  On 13/08/2014 at 02:48, Bedraggled Dee said:

Bottom line for me so far is that the AFL have created a bit of a dogs breakfast throughout ths investigation. They have tried to maniupulate the outcome and in doing so muddied the process and leaked like a seive. If they had taken the NRL approach and stood back and let ASADA get on with it we would not be here now.

I dont blame the AFL, they did what we should expect them to do and protect the competition and its clubs (including Essendon) but by pushing for the joint investgation and the interim report in a race to whack Essendon before the finals they made some mistakes. In hind sight they should have let the 2013 season play out and deal wit the fall out once the ASADA enquiry was done and dusted. If had taken that approach they would now be hung drawn and quartered for sitting in there hands and allowing this to drag out and not taking action earlier. They would just be in a better position legally.

Good post - In hindsight the "blackest day in sport" press conference probably set the scene for what is playing out now. The investigation should have been able to run outside the public eye.

[beelzebub 23,392]

The Social Litigator's take on Day 3

get a wine , a beer.....bottle !! sit back and read

[whatwhat say what 23,852]

Still no Robbo on 360.

Why not just admit that he's been put on gardening leave?

[SaberFang 7,151]

What's the conspiracy theory behind Robbo leaving his TV commitments? Has he lost his accreditation or something?

[Ted Lasso 19,586]

Robbo is probably just passed out somewhere

[Whispering_Jack 31,367]

Perhaps Robbo has the flu like me and half the population of Melbourne.

Well, despite my affliction which had prevented me from keeping up with all of the day 3 goings on, I'm liking some of the discussion on here. Dr. John Dee and It's Time have raised some interesting points and Redleg, as usual has succinctly summed up what the result should be although we need to remember the old adage about the law being an ass.

On reading the views expressed I'm starting to regret quoting Lady MacBeth. I think The Crucible by Arthur Miller might better explain what's going on here. It just struck me that the good lady practices witchcraft and the Hirds have put a spell on a number of their hangers on like Robbo and Warner et. al. One just hopes that Middleton J has an immunity card so to speak. Or perhaps it's just the substances I've been drinking (for medical purposes only).

I think It's Time's conclusion about the public interest is important. There are certain aspects of the case where the judge is allowed to exercise his discretion and given the purpose of ASADA and the Act of Parliament whereby it was created, the reasons for its existence and the issues that go to the heart of this matter such as whether or not players in our sport were subjected to a regime of prohibited substances with the aim of enhancing their performance, these matters should be overriding. They relate directly to the public interest and need to be considered in determining whether ASADA acted beyond its powers. That's not to say that the ends should justify the means or that the court should sanction unreasonable conduct by ASADA but in this case, I don't see where it overstepped the line even if the AFL was the naughty boy and failed to behave appropriately in accordance with its obligations.

The other aspect that I haven't been able to pick up is to what extent is the work done after the appearance on the scene of Judge Downes relevant to this matter. As I understand it, ASADA reinterviewed a number of witnesses on his advice in order to tighten the case against the players. Those interviews were clearly not part of an "illegal joint investigation" and if they were properly conducted according to the Act, then ASADA might well issue fresh show causes within days of the handing down of judgement and we would all be back at square one. The players would have 10 days to respond and the next set of lawyers could start the billing process all over again.

I can't see how Essendon could possibly appeal if it lost the case. Any appeal would run through the trade and draft period and make it impossible for the Bombers to recruit for next year.

[Deecisive 1,709]

The bombers delaying tactics are probably designed to deal with one court case and court appeal at a time. I would not be surprised if they have a few more court challenges for ASADA and the AFL to fight them every step of the way in the hope that ASADA or the AFL will make a mistake or give up. The real problem is the players, I have not heard of Essendon doing anything to protect the well being of the players, by not naming the majority of their list does not have any chance of leaving the club and getting traded to another club because of this. Players who are drafted or may want to go the Essendon, do not know what sort of team it will have next year if one at all. Thats not going to be fair to any draftees that get selected by them. any parent would probably be worried having their son drafted by them as they do not seem to believe they have done anything wrong using their players as guinea pigs for their pharmacological experiments.

[monoccular 17,760]

  On 13/08/2014 at 04:14, beelzebub said:

hope they enjoy their new sunday night time slot

  On 13/08/2014 at 04:15, biggestred said:

and all their home games being v interstate teams

Assuming of course that they remain in the competition

  On 13/08/2014 at 10:00, Sir Paul Roos said:

Robbo is probably just passed out somewhere

Was that second letter an a or an I??

[M_9 2,216]

From The Age: 'Justice Middleton warned Howe there could be another legal challenge should ASADA seek to secure the same information within 24 hours of his verdict.'

I don't think the EFC give two hoots as to whether or not an appeal would be a distraction during the trade period. There's no way the matter is going to be wrapped up this year.

If Little can continue to appeal, he will (unless his board overrides him). I can't see how Hird could appeal further.

[Jara 1,153]

Didn't I read somewhere that - hmmm - maybe just over twenty of the players involved are still at the club? Maybe their plan is to keep appealing for so long that they'll be well into the rebuilding process by the time they get hammered.

That Little looks like a cunning little ba$&tard. He's also, is he not, notoriously litigious?

(Apologies to M9 - looks like we crossed over in the ether)

[Its Time for Another 4,306]

  On 13/08/2014 at 10:51, Whispering_Jack said:

The other aspect that I haven't been able to pick up is to what extent is the work done after the appearance on the scene of Judge Downes relevant to this matter.

I can't see how Essendon could possibly appeal if it lost the case. Any appeal would run through the trade and draft period and make it impossible for the Bombers to recruit for next year.

You raise a good point about Judge Downes. This is the part of the legal system that intrigues me. Essentially this case is a very simple case about whether the black and white letter of the law as set out in the ASADA and NAD legislation gives ASADA the power to carry out the investigation the way it did with the involvement of the AFL. Only the legislation is relevant to this, none of the rest of the witness statements etc are relevant to this point. They are only relevant if it didn't have the power. You'd think this point would be so straight forward there shouldn't even be an argument and yet all these top QC's have completely the opposite view about it so this case goes on.

If ASADA has carried out this investigation incorrectly and the Notices get quashed and the Judge issues an order stopping ASADA from issuing new Notices can you begin to imagine the political fall out that is going to come down on ASADA. And by extension on all Australian athletes who compete under an anti doping body that doesn't carry out proper investigations.. The damage Essendon has created from it's pharmacological experimentation, to borrow their own report's terms, will just keep going on and on. And Hird will treat this as a victory.

Even if ASADA win I would say they are going to tighten up how they operate and I truly hope the AFL has a long hard look at itself as well. That can't be a bad thing for the sport in the long term.

[sue 9,277]

Little speaks:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-13/essendon-chairman-says-another-game-being-played-asada-probe/5669312

[beelzebub 23,392]

All the while its about procedure not substance

What about the tb4 Little ??

[Pennant St Dee 13,450]

  On 13/08/2014 at 09:39, DemonAndrew said:

Still no Robbo on 360.

Why not just admit that he's been put on gardening leave?

Wasn't Robbo served a Subpoena for the Dean Robinson matter

Possibly unable to give evidence as he is on sick leave with a certificate?

[beelzebub 23,392]

The Social Litigator:The Law Weighs In: Closing Submissions in Essendon v ASADA trial

A bit of light reading to accompany your WeetBix this morning.

No one's game to call it. What is definite though is we'll be the laughing stock of world sport and pariahs if ASADA don't prevail