Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

  On 04/10/2014 at 04:29, hogans_heroes said:

Got a bad feeling that unnamed assistant coach might now be a Demon

Definitely the elephant in the room.

Que our next disaster

[Lucifers Hero 40,692]

Even if it was Goodwin I doubt there is anything to worry about:

- There is nothing in that article that suggests anything illegal was done

- Apparently he 'came clean' to MFC Board, about his role in the saga

- PJ is smart enough to have built contingencies into Goodwin's contract should anything come up

- The AFL would needed to have approved the appointment (as the 'receivers' of MFC) and if there was anything in the ASADA Interim Report the AFL would have just said keep looking PJ, Goodwin is not for you. They could just say: best to steer away from EFC staff for now.

The interesting question is who leaked the info to HS. Could it just be one J Hird to embarrass one of his best mates, Xavier Campbell for doing his job and siding with EFC on the ASADA appeal rather than siding with JH. If my hunch is right that is another bestie that James has thrown under the bus!!

[Melbman2 226]

I like the conundrum that the Essendon board are in.

They want to sack Hird for his role in the "supplements" scandal but can't do so without evidence of wrong doing.

The very same evidence the Essendon board don't want to see the light of day.

I guess they have to wait for others to introduce that evidence then they can go for it.

[Blistering 545]

  On 04/10/2014 at 04:29, Qwerty30 said:

Whether she has the AFL as one of her sources is neither here nor there. And it did not need an "agenda" for all to see Schwab's incompetence.

As for PJ....in 12 months he has slashed administrative fat out of the operating costs, turned a small profit in poor onfield year, put in place a coaching succession plan, rebuilt AFL confidence in the running of the Club and most of all prevented the club from repeatedly shooting itself in the foot with a range off field.

And thanks for the recent history of the club. I trust your journalistic friends will check the quality and source of the information before they commit to print.

IIRC the Stynes/Schwab administration had a similar impact in the 12 months after it took over from the Gardner administration that left the club bleeding with $5m black hole in debt and according to Demetriou a club that stood for nothing. You really need to take a long term view and look at things from the perspective of cause and effect if you really want to understand how things come to pass.

The story of Hird is becoming very clear. He was very driven and after losing badly to Carlton in the 2011 elimination final he together with Dank and the Weapon hatched a plan that was on the cutting edge of sports science. No doubt he believed it was all above board as did the snake oil salesmen around him but they were all a bit overconfident and Dank was careless with his understanding of one of the drugs he injected into the players. Turned out it was a banned substance and not in a grey area classification that he expected.

Hird couldn't face the facts and is now paying the price. Had he really accepted responsibility back in Feb 13 he would have been free to coach into the future.

[Qwerty30 196]

  On 04/10/2014 at 05:45, Whispering_Jack said:

It's just that I don't accept the narrow view of history that goes with the acceptance of the theory.

Nevertheless, the same thing holds for the Essendon saga and, contrary to what you say, I do believe Caro's sources and her agenda are very relevant to how she presents her narrative because of her agenda and the way she tries to push her opinions as fact. There's a lawyer by the name of Martin Hardie who I've quoted here in the past. His views are unambiguously pro-Essendon and he's writing a book on this saga that will no doubt paint James Hird as an angel right out of heaven. I won't believe him either.

With due respect I have not given a view of history like yourself other than to say that Schwab was an incompetent CEO and the Club was in a dire situation where the AFL bailed it out of some of its erroneous commitments (Schwab, Neeld

and others) and provides special compensation now to finance a messiah coach.

But back to Essendon.......

  On 04/10/2014 at 05:45, Whispering_Jack said:

Nevertheless, the same thing holds for the Essendon saga and, contrary to what you say, I do believe Caro's sources and her agenda are very relevant to how she presents her narrative because of her agenda and the way she tries to push her opinions as fact.

All i have said is that Caro would appear to have numerous sources and trying to assume it was the AFL in this case may well be ill informed. And certainly in respect of the Essendon's saga you would be in no better position than any other poster here to determine opinion from the actual fact. You dont like Caro's style and had your feathers ruffled in the past. In respect of Essendon she has been firm and clear on the Essendon in respect of the complete failure of the governance arrangements over player health and safety. If that's an agenda then its a clear one and she has been right on the journey through this and correctly sought to hold the EFC Board, Executive, Hird, Dank and Reid accountable.

[Qwerty30 196]

  On 04/10/2014 at 06:55, Blistering said:

IIRC the Stynes/Schwab administration had a similar impact in the 12 months after it took over from the Gardner administration that left the club bleeding with $5m black hole in debt and according to Demetriou a club that stood for nothing. You really need to take a long term view and look at things from the perspective of cause and effect if you really want to understand how things come to pass.

I can only judge Jackson on what he has done to date. While MFC are a LT recovery, case he has at least stabilised the operation and started to put the steps in place. And I did take a LT view of Schwab when i referred to the place as a shambles when he left after 4,5 years.This is on the back of overseeing a salary cap breaches in a previous stanza with the Club.

  On 04/10/2014 at 06:55, Blistering said:

The story of Hird is becoming very clear.

You mean it wasnt for the past 18 months?

I think we have had 336 pages of this thread calling this out.

[dees189227 12,497]

how about the CEO just injecting himself with a tanning drug. Geez did they all line up for a go?

It also seems Gerard Whateley may have jumped sides. He seemed to be on team hird maybe his mate Robbo influenced him but it was a good article in todays herald sun. But naughty boy James driving away without putting your seatbelt on.

[Crompton's the man 660]

The side effects, notably, include "spontaneous erections"

Makes you wonder why they wanted to take the stuff in the first place.

Must have been for the tanning effect.

Is anyone aware what happens when females are injected?

Apart from darkened skin, is what I am inquiring.

And where do you source this type of thing, anyways ?

[rjay 25,408]

  On 04/10/2014 at 04:29, Qwerty30 said:

Whether she has the AFL as one of her sources is neither here nor there. And it did not need an "agenda" for all to see Schwab's incompetence.

As for PJ....in 12 months he has slashed administrative fat out of the operating costs, turned a small profit in poor onfield year, put in place a coaching succession plan, rebuilt AFL confidence in the running of the Club and most of all prevented the club from repeatedly shooting itself in the foot with a range off field.

And thanks for the recent history of the club. I trust your journalistic friends will check the quality and source of the information before they commit to print.

Happy to see the end of Schwab and didn't want him back in the first place. PJ has pulled the right levers to date but will it be enough. I agree with 'Jack' on this the jury is still out. There is a big history of incompetence that needs to be overcome and it will take more than a couple of years to fix it.

[Macca 17,121]

Neither Patrick Smith nor Caroline Wilson were ever sticking their necks out. Both were just reporting on events in a normal fashion. If it had have been Cronulla only, most of the Melbourne media and the footy public would have had a field day.

Most others in the media and indeed most in the general footy public had their collective heads in a bucket of sand because ... at the guts of the whole thing was that the game had to be protected so therefore Essendon had to be protected. Now that we're slowly getting overwhelming evidence that implicates Essendon, a large majority of people are simply taking up the view that they could have taken up from the start (or should have)

I still come across a lot of people who don't want the players to cop bans because they feel it will hurt the game (excluding most Bomber fans who are hopelessly compromised)

Of course if it were Chinese swimmers, professional cyclists, American track & field sprinters, Bulgarian weightlifters or Russian middle distance runners we were talking about ... different story. The finger gets pointed almost automatically when it's not close to home.

[daisycutter 29,988]

  On 04/10/2014 at 08:06, Crompton said:

The side effects, notably, include "spontaneous erections"

Makes you wonder why they wanted to take the stuff in the first place.

Must have been for the tanning effect.

Is anyone aware what happens when females are injected?

Apart from darkened skin, is what I am inquiring.

And where do you source this type of thing, anyways ?

pretty sure biffo can supply you if you ask. that is if you're not too fussed about quality

[Crompton's the man 660]

  On 04/10/2014 at 10:05, daisycutter said:

pretty sure biffo can supply you if you ask. that is if you're not too fussed about quality

It's just for a friend

Is he reliable?

[hoopla 418]

  On 04/10/2014 at 09:11, Macca said:

Neither Patrick Smith nor Caroline Wilson were ever sticking their necks out. Both were just reporting on events in a normal fashion. If it had have been Cronulla only, most of the Melbourne media and the footy public would have had a field day.

Most others in the media and indeed most in the general footy public had their collective heads in a bucket of sand because ... at the guts of the whole thing was that the game had to be protected so therefore Essendon had to be protected. Now that we're slowly getting overwhelming evidence that implicates Essendon, a large majority of people are simply taking up the view that they could have taken up from the start (or should have)

I still come across a lot of people who don't want the players to cop bans because they feel it will hurt the game (excluding most Bomber fans who are hopelessly compromised)

Of course if it were Chinese swimmers, professional cyclists, American track & field sprinters, Bulgarian weightlifters or Russian middle distance runners we were talking about ... different story. The finger gets pointed almost automatically when it's not close to home.

I've retained some sympathy for the players in all this - because the younger players at least had been hammered to believe 'one in all in". They were in an elite environment overseen by a champion of the game - you do what you are told to do. I have been rounded on by others who have said that the minute a person over 18 has to to sign a disclaimer he ought to know he's on the knife edge of legality- and seek expert counsel.Still they did what the team was expected to do.

This is where Hird's behaviour throughout has been reprehensible .As he said alongside David Evans - and has since denied and denied - I am responsible for what happens to the player group. Had it not been for him drawing the Little faction to the head of the Committee - all this would have played out so differently. Hird's stance now is semi- delusional - and must certainly be motivated by a determination to build up his bank balance any way he can.

It is astounding that Worksafe haven't jumped on to pile - it may be that ASADA has asked them to keep their powder dry for now

[daisycutter 29,988]

  On 04/10/2014 at 11:40, Crompton said:

It's just for a friend

Is he reliable?

i'd bet bbo's life on it........trust me

[Macca 17,121]

  On 04/10/2014 at 12:07, hoopla said:

I've retained some sympathy for the players in all this - because the younger players at least had been hammered to believe 'one in all in". They were in an elite environment overseen by a champion of the game - you do what you are told to do. I have been rounded on by others who have said that the minute a person over 18 has to to sign a disclaimer he ought to know he's on the knife edge of legality- and seek expert counsel.Still they did what the team was expected to do.

This is where Hird's behaviour throughout has been reprehensible .As he said alongside David Evans - and has since denied and denied - I am responsible for what happens to the player group. Had it not been for him drawing the Little faction to the head of the Committee - all this would have played out so differently. Hird's stance now is semi- delusional - and must certainly be motivated by a determination to build up his bank balance any way he can.

It is astounding that Worksafe haven't jumped on to pile - it may be that ASADA has asked them to keep their powder dry for now

I have some sympathy for the younger players ... especially the 1st and 2nd year draftees at the time. Of course, those young players will be in their early 20's now but I'm not sure that any of the players age's will be taken into account though if and when the penalties are handed down. The older players had to know better and they'll have to live with the choices that they made. I've long held the belief that nearly all of them are at fault in some capacity - you're allowed to say no.

I agree with you re Worksafe but again, they may be ready to strike later on - at least you'd hope they would.

It still astounds me about the amount of injections that were to be implemented with the program that they had cooked up. Not only did they overstep the mark, they went right past the mark to extreme levels.

There was talk that the entire program was to involve anywhere from 15,000 to 40,000 injections although that figure may have been exaggerated

Essendon players were last year urged to have one injection a week

  Quote

Some players were urged to have one injection a week, others two, as part of a regimen which ran from March to August.

"That's not astronomical, that's extremely astronomical," one club medico said last night.

Players at most clubs average about one injection a year - for the flu or painkillers.

[hoopla 418]

  On 04/10/2014 at 12:57, Macca said:

It still astounds me about the amount of injections that were to be implemented with the program that they had cooked up. Not only did they overstep the mark, they went right past the mark to extreme levels.

There was talk that the entire program was to involve anywhere from 15,000 to 40,000 injections although that figure may have been exaggerated

Essendon players were last year urged to have one injection a week

I have no doubt that they deliberately muddied or destroyed the records for individual players as part of a strategy to avoid penalties.

When theystarted out Hird should have checked with his lawyer wife who would have told him that under the ASADA Act the burden of proof shifts to the accused.

[Whispering_Jack 31,341]

I've commented in the past about this idea of sympathy for the players and, whilst the argument might have some merit on the face of it, AFL players have it drummed into them from the moment they get inducted into the system (and often before if they come from the elite junior levels) the protocols involved with ingesting any substances into their bodies. The same applies to athletes in almost every other sport played at the highest levels so why should AFL players get preferential treatment over say, Chinese swimmers or Bulgarian weightlifters many of them young and under the influence of their team coaches?

Here's an interesting piece on the quest to stamp out the abuse of performance enhancing drugs from sport ~

THE LAWYER WHO TOOK DOWN LANCE ARMSTRONG IS ON A MISSION TO END THE CULTURE OF CHEATING

[Blistering 545]

  On 04/10/2014 at 07:46, Qwerty30 said:

You mean it wasnt for the past 18 months?

I think we have had 336 pages of this thread calling this out.

I don't know where you've been lately but the possibly seems to have escaped you that a large segment of the media that covers football including the News Limited publications and the duo that host AFL360 on Foxtel, media commentators including Rohan Connolly, Andy Maher, Mark Fine on SEN, Tracy Holmes and many others (especially until recently 99% of Bomber fans) have pushed very different viewpoints about Hird.

My point is that they're all finally waking up including even Mark Robinson who is now questioning whether Hird has become "delusional".

[Crompton's the man 660]

That word " delusional " ,if it came out of Mark Robinson's word processor, seems huge.

Does it mean history is being reevaluated ?

[MO FINE 171]

Et tu Gerrard Whateley?

Gerard Whateley: Absurd week has Essendon and James Hird at absolute cross-purposes

[jnrmac 20,331]

Haven't read the most recent pages so apols if repeating stuff but I think its amazing how Hird and the club have painted themselves into a corner yet again. They can only be delusional.

They can't sack Hird because if they do Hird will have no standing in the court case where he says he is trying to protect the players (as if!). The club is trying to have it both ways as usual. Fight every absurd possibility while at the same time saying the players are innocent, we are doing everything for them.

Once Hird is not coach he is stuffed from an appeal perspective.

[daisycutter 29,988]

  On 05/10/2014 at 00:34, Blistering said:

I don't know where you've been lately but the possibly seems to have escaped you that a large segment of the media that covers football including the News Limited publications and the duo that host AFL360 on Foxtel, media commentators including Rohan Connolly, Andy Maher, Mark Fine on SEN, Tracy Holmes and many others (especially until recently 99% of Bomber fans) have pushed very different viewpoints about Hird.

My point is that they're all finally waking up including even Mark Robinson who is now questioning whether Hird has become "delusional".

is it possible for a delusional journo to assess someone else's state of delusion?

whatever, both are sociopaths anyway

[Biffen 12,949]

  On 05/10/2014 at 01:51, daisycutter said:

is it possible for a delusional journo to assess someone else's state of delusion?

whatever, both are sociopaths anyway

You can only write about what you know.

By the way ,I loved your last film with John Tutturo.

"Fading Gigolo"

[beelzebub 23,392]

  On 05/10/2014 at 00:55, Crompton said:

That word " delusional " ,if it came out of Mark Robinson's word processor, seems huge.

Does it mean history is being reevaluated ?

Id put it as History being realised and understood. People (these) are now prepared to look again and SEE.

[beelzebub 23,392]

Jnrmac. I dont think Little and EFC care a stuff about what happens to Hird now or his standing in procedures. I think they do care now about the dwindling war chest and Jacques eyes on it.

He is scum isnt he