Can we go backwards? Hell no. We are like spaceball one we are preparing the ship for ludicrous speed.

Yes we could.

Also in "could/might/maybe" happenings: a giant comet could strike the Earth.

But there's nothing to be gained in thinking about it. You're just keeping yourself awake at night.

Don't think we will go backwards, but the youngsters laiden with talent GWS and GC will go right pass us, can not expect any other outcome, I suspect our Grand Final will be played out on Queens Birthday for some years yet.

I also expect the Dogs to drop down and join the MFC and Power.

I wouldn't think so. As we've found young talent alone isn't enough and both are light on for senior players with the exception of Ablett at GC.

My expectations are that we will progress, how far is like how long is a piece of string ?

But we have moved on underweight, under performing, under achieving, and players un happy in the environment

Viney, Toumpas, Dawes Rodan, all more positive than those that left,

It will be a roller coaster for mine, some highs, some lows, if they all go in the same direction

and none of the bad luck from last year, and with Norm Smith back at the G..... anything possible

Go Dees !!!

We will improve but how much we wont know until about Round 8

Gee I hope we finish above the Lions,after all they have Moloney and Martin.

I suggest you have a look at a few more games and tell me how well Cale performed over the year, yes Green had a couple of good games when the year was done and dusted and probably against bottom sides rather than good sides. The premise that a couple of good games from these guys is going to be better than good or even fair games from Dawes, Rodan, Viney, Toumpas and Clark etc.... does seem far fetched. We had so many basic things wrong with our side last year, many of which Neeld is addressing, injuries and luck will obviously still play a part, but i think the INs are far better than the OUTs.

That is a very frightening question to answer!, as every off season the Dee's are hitting their straps in December. I personally believe that we will improve and knock off teams such as , GC, GWS, Bulldogs, Port. I am hoping we could also get over (or it least match is with them) Lions, St kilda and i also believe that Adelaide will have a shocker of a year, like we did last year. All these off field issues really to take effect on a side, (Us this year, St Kilda the year before). I too feel I’m getting carried away with our new recruits:

Dawes: not a great year last year

Rodan, Brynes, Pederson; could barely get a game with their last clubs

Viney, Toumpas; Great expectations which are not warranted to early in their careers

I hope this Tanking rubbish is put to bed, and we’re found not guilty and so out team can concentrate on whats important, train the house down and turn up round 1, with a new never give in attitude and ready to have a crack, at the end most supporters understand that we are not going to win the flag, for the boys to have a red hot crack for 4 quarters every week!.

2012 needs to be looked at from 2 points of view.

The first point of view we needed to consider was that 2012 was a continuation of the last 7 rounds of 2011. All the chickens had come home to roost by round 19. The dysfunction of the football department and the softness of the players resulted in what we all know and hate as those three figures that get bandied around here so much. The rest of the games that season would be a preview for the next year. We were unable to beat anyone who wasn't an expansion team.

The second point of view to consider is that 2012, in as far as the approach Neeldy took with the boys, was that the village needed to be burnt down to be saved. Players were given a chance (in hindsight maybe the list pruning needed to begin at the start of the year) and were told in no uncertain terms what would happen if they didn't buy in. It caused a lot of resentment and a percentage of the playing group most likely rebelled. This bluntness may have caused disharmony but it was probably required to ensure that the mediocrity that marked that group was to be stamped out forever. Threats were followed through on and the turnover of the list is clear evidence of this.

Next year, it should be said however, it will be all on Neeldy. I like his approach thus far in as far as man management but can he coach on match day? That is important as well. I think I am a reasonable person who can appreciate lateral thinking. I gave Dean Bailey the benefit of the doubt despite some misgivings about list management strategy. However, I lost my patience with him when it was obvious we were going nowhere. Mark Neeld, and I am sure he would expect no different, will be a lost cause if absolutely no progress is shown this year.

Jai Sheahan (rookie) * - no AFL appearances. Rating 0

The total of my rating of the departing players is 18½; out of a possible 150, barely above an average of 1 per player. I would be surprised if we can't improve on that with the influx of the new players and improvement among existing members of the list, especially with better fitness and less injuries in 2013.

* I liked him at Casey and was disappointed that he was delisted but the FD must have had their reasons.

I also felt the same. I asked the question if he was a chance to be re-drafted. I got a firm no.

Unless something happened behind the scenes, my gut feeling is he was 82Kgs, and it was asking to much to expect him to stack on another 10-15 kgs. Neeld has shown he wanted solid bodied players. The end of the 'stick era'.

We couldnt possibably have an another year,like the one we just had,with all off field distractions.

So far from seeing and reading reports, the players have improved on their fitness levels, I dont have available where each players goals need to be. but already there has been a big improvement. Last pre-season they seemed to be shell shocked. this pre-season they are taking it headon,and look much better. There is a noticable upbeat approach on the track.

The FD has had a full year, to refine / retune their goals. They, like the players, now know each other better, and how each individual operates. They have a better understanding on player reaction,and weaknesses, and will address those better, they have had a full year to access all the facts.

Of all those players WJ listed only 2 will be missed. Rivers (even though I wasnt his biggest fan) he was servicable,but can be covered. His experieced will be missed.

Jurrah, (forget this year) his ability to impact a game,if only in bursts will be hard to replace. Having said that its not the end of the world.

Like most I am feeling upbeat coming into 2013,but I have been burnt many times, so I am keeeping the lid on predictions.

If the players are somewhere near the fitness levels they need to be at, then Neeld is now on a even playing field.He cant use excuses for them not playing out 4 quarters of football,the acid will be right back on him,to get them to fire up. Right from the opening bounce.

We'll see if he can perform,in the same way he expects his players to perform.Has he the ability to make moves to win games, or make them after the horse has bolted? He needs to inspire, show us what he is made of.

He also put our attacking game on the back burner,to allow a defensive game to be developed. If that is now at a stage where he is happy,then unlease the attack, we have the firepower up forward. Bring it on.

My few concerns, Clark, untested thus far. Just hope he makes a full recovery, and it doesnt hinder him.

Can the players, take what they are learning onto the ground,then continue to build,or will they crumble when the heat is on.

The unknown, INJURIES. they murder us, I would love to none to our most important players, we cant afford the luxury. We will get them,it depends on the duration,and to who.

A fit,confident team, with no more disgrunted players,looking like they wanted to be anywhere else but in a Melbourne jumper, we should expect a lot better 2013. (I would like to say we can rattle the eight, but I wont)

mfcss's must be loving this.

fair dinkum' go backwards ??? .....sure and the world is flat and ends in 20 days !!!!!

youd almost think some want us to fail.... that or have no idea and/or logic.

Fair enough question. Each team improves 5-10 percent each year. We have to improve 30 percent just to make an impact. Still 8-10 decent players away from making a real impact. Don't get expectations up too high.

Those are some startling numbers, they would make me numb if they weren't so made up...

........

There is a saying that approximately 88.35 percent of stats quoted on footy fora are made up :-))

There is a saying that approximately 88.35 percent of stats quoted on footy fora are made up :-))

And the other 9.6 are wrong.

If we get stripped of all premiership points (which will only be 8) after round 10 for tanking, is that backwards?

If we beat GC, GWS and Port thats 5, if we can win 5 games out of the teams slightly above us Richmond ST Kilda Bulldogs Freo Carlton thats 10, if we can upset a Collingwood or Sydney we can get 11-12

My preference is to ask whether we can go forwards in 2013 and I would say "yes" because I don't expect all of the things that went wrong for us both on and off the field in 2012 (all well documented) to go wrong again in 2013.

I'm reasonably satisfied that our inclusions will help us improve and that we have a number of up and comers who did little in 2012 due to injury or lack of experience who can help improve of playing stocks and depth.

My only question about 2013 is the fact that plenty of well-credentialled young players that look good in the long run haven't got any immediate AFL experience: Viney, Toumpas, Terlich, Kent, Barry, Hogan. They'll take at least 20 games to find their feet and make much impact. Conversely, we should start to see more contribution from young players that have currently <30 games experience that can build and improve e.g. McDonald, Tapscott, Blease, Tynan, Taggert, Gawn, Fitzpatrick, Evans, Nicholson.

On an out > in basis I'd rate the list changes as follows:

(+ better, - worse, o not enough data)

Clint Bartram > Dean Terlich - (based on Bartram's career, not just 2012)

Brad Green > Jesse Hogan + (from 2014)

Jared Rivers > Tom Gillies -

Brent Moloney > Jack Viney +

Jordan Gysberts > Dean Kent +

Stef Martin > Cam Pedersen +

Cale Morton > Jimmy Toumpas +

Matthew Bate > Matt Jones o

Jamie Bennell > Dominic Barry o

Lucas Cook > Chris Dawes ++++++

Liam Jurrah > Shannon Byrnes +

Ricky Petterd > David Rodan +

Jai Sheahan > new rookie ... o

Kelvin Lawrence > new rookie ... o

Leigh Williams > ?? ... o

Not to mention Mitch Clark hopefully playing closer to a full season.

I don't think we will have to worry......The world is going to end on the 21st Dec.2012........

Just in case it doesn't......We are a good chance for the eight......

As a regular training watcher I can assure the OP that we won't be going backwards. I could mention the improved forward-line - with Dawes and Pedersen complimenting Clark we no longer have a front half of pygmies; I could mention the continued maturity of the defence - with Watts training there all preseason, and Nicholson and McDonald, et al, continuing to gain experience to ease pressure and help release Frawley; I could mention the midfield that has lost nothing, but gained an injection of class with Viney, Toumpas, a rejuvenated Trengove, and the big Kent; I could mention that I haven't seen the main training group this large at this time of year in a long while; but these are bit parts that add to the bigger picture.

We will be better because our fitness levels, strength, understanding of the game-plan, and competition for spots will be nothing like last year. Even our running patterns at training, i.e defending and spreading, is far better. When they run to position they run with purpose. They sprint hard and they're more vocal. Our work at the stoppages is noticeably better - thanks to Viney and Rodan helping Jones. The poor fitness levels of 2012 meant that Melbourne struggled to run both ways last year. They couldn't defend, or play Neeld's game-plan because of their poor fitness base. They got sucked into contests only to be burnt on the spread. They'd have an OK quarter against a top 8 team, but couldn't sustain it, which is a hallmark of young sides lacking fitness and match hardening. Things will be much different next year.

That's not to say that I don't rate our inclusions, I do, and they serve a really important ingredient to the club's overall psyche. Fitness, strength, and a unified team all backing the coach and his vision does wonders. You can tell at training that everyone is on the same page. And the injection of class and leadership in the club helps foster trust and confidence. With those intangible ingredients you start developing momentum. You get players "buying in". It's all part of a seismic culture shift. And it's happening right now.

I don't think we'll make the 8 next year, but I have no doubt that the dark years are over and that we're on the incline. Supporters will notice a tangible improvement next year. There will still be inconsistent performances that send Demonland into meltdown, but there will also be wins against teams we haven't beaten in years and a sense of purpose that hasn't been evident for some time. Some will prefer to not believe, such is their want, but I'm going to enjoy summer in the knowledge that this club has turned the corner.

What I want to see is one year where we aren't in the spotlight for the wrong reasons. We had so many distractions last year and so many negative stories written that it would have been impossible for the players not to be distracted.

Of course we could go worse next year, it's a possibility as is making top 4 (admittedly going worse is more likely), but the way we have drafted and traded we are no longer a team that's lightly framed and easily intimidated, I would be surprised and disappointed if we weren't on the up in 2013.

We will improve . Not sure we could get worse anyway so we can only improve . Of the 15 players (all up) that we've moved on, none were doing anything of any substance . 'WJ's ratings on these players in post #8 sums it up very well .

The players we've brought in all have to prove themselves . Viney , Toumpas and Dawes are the key . If all 3 have some sort of impact then we will improve . A few of our other recruits may have an immediate impact as well and if this happens it's a no-brainer . Our existing players should have all 'bought in' to the new régime by now so it's all systems go .

It's generally accepted now that the 2012 year was about teaching the whole group a new way of playing and the season itself was regarded by many as another 'pre-season' (in terms of getting the group up to acceptable fitness levels) .

A few of our discards may do ok elsewhere but what's important is that the new régime gave all of them the chance to prove themselves (in season 2012) . These 15 players either couldn't cope or weren't up to it .

We've got a reasonably kind draw so we should expect at least 8 wins . That's double last years tally and wins are generally the best measuring stick for improvement .

Edited December 1, 201212 yr by Macca

Its simple; we wont be going backwards because we'll be too busy going forwards !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLR3CgeUeyc

There is no way we'll be worse in 2013 than in 2012, or 2007-2011 for that matter.

Fair enough question. Each team improves 5-10 percent each year. We have to improve 30 percent just to make an impact. Still 8-10 decent players away from making a real impact. Don't get expectations up too high.

Fair enough question. Each team improves 5-10 percent each year. We have to improve 30 percent just to make an impact. Still 8-10 decent players away from making a real impact. Don't get expectations up too high.

Not all teams improve, want a good example Carlton: 2011 - 4th, Carlton 2012 - 10th.

If we hadn't have traded like we did this year and pick up guns like Viney and Toumpas I have no doubt we still would have improved. Our lack of fitness was a major factor as was the new style of play which had a direct bearing on behavioural change. We will have 18 months of knowledge to take into rd 1 next season and a significantly improved fitness base.

Couple this with the obvious player improvements over this trade and draft period I'm very confident of a much better showing next year.

Of course, that will be proportionate to the rest of the competition.

Edited December 1, 201212 yr by McQueen

Don't think we will go backwards, but the youngsters laiden with talent GWS and GC will go right pass us, can not expect any other outcome, I suspect our Grand Final will be played out on Queens Birthday for some years yet.

I also expect the Dogs to drop down and join the MFC and Power.

The two new franchises should improve, especially GCS with their experienced players helping to kick things along nicely. However, I don't think either of them will improve to the point where they can overtake us.

The Doggies and Port don't look like going forwards in 2013 and we did better that both on one cylinder in the last half of 2012. We also won more games than the Bombers did after round 9 last year. There are a group of clubs like St. Kilda, Richmond and Brisbane who won't be far ahead of us at all and there are always one or two others who we could overtake if their seasons go badly. I remain on the confident side and believe we will surprise many.

Of course we can go backwards...but are we going to.....NO!