Jamar or Martin

[Alcho Dee 269]

Jamar and Moloney contributed to a great extent to our completely predictable clearance work No wonder we got smashed all year. We need to go differntly this year and im not at all sure Jamar is capable especially with the new rules.

Martin has speed and the athletic ability to handle the pace of the game these days.

Unlike, spencer, bate, moloney, sellar.

I hope we keep both Jamar and Martin.

Edited October 21, 2012 by J VINEY FAN

[Moonshadow 17,675]

I've said this before, but how about Jamar to GWS for pick 14 and a deal that they leave Grundy for us at pick 4?

We get Grundy, a mid at 14, Viney in 2nd round.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Moonshadow

[Alcho Dee 269]

I've said this before, but how about Jamar to GWS for pick 13 and a deal that they leave Grundy for us at pick 4?

We get Grundy, a mid at 13, Viney at 26.

And the reason we offered Jamar a new contract this year was for what reason.

Definately need a midfielder with our pick 4.

How much pressure would Grundy be under in that situation if your suggestion became reality?!?

[Moonshadow 17,675]

And the reason we offered Jamar a new contract this year was for what reason.

Definately need a midfielder with our pick 4.

How much pressure would Grundy be under in that situation if your suggestion became reality?!?

Yes, we need a mid. Agreed. But if Grundy was available, it would be very hard to pass him up. He would be behind Martin, Gawn and maybe Spencer in 2013, moving up the order in 2014.

And there are many here who have no idea why we gave a 3 yr deal to a 29 yr old, injury plagued big man who has had one good season in 10 and averages about 2 maks per game.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,203]

Martin has speed and the athletic ability to handle the pace of the game these days.

Unlike, spencer, bate, moloney, sellar.

I hope we keep both Jamar and Martin.

Yeah he has speed and athletic ability. It's a pity he doesn't have a football brain, good skills or quick decision making because he could be a really valuable asset.

[Alcho Dee 269]

Yes, we need a mid. Agreed. But if Grundy was available, it would be very hard to pass him up. He would be behind Martin, Gawn and maybe Spencer in 2013, moving up the order in 2014.

And there are many here who have no idea why we gave a 3 yr deal to a 29 yr old, injury plagued big man who has had one good season in 10 and averages about 2 maks per game.

We have to wait until 2014 for Hulk, you want us to draft Grundy and wait until 2014 before he cements his position on the ground.

We need our no.4 draft pick playing majority of games in 2013.

Aren't you tired of waiting?

Lets not forget Jamar was the best ruck in 2010 behind Sandilands.

Jamar had a proven record at the top level, unlike, GRUNDY, SPENCER, GAWN.

Our rucks are ample, we dont need any more. Spencer out.

[monoccular 17,417]

I think that there is a reason that he was given a three year contract. Clearly, Neeld, Craig and Misson believe that he still has a lot to offer.

I'm a fan of Jamar's ruck work and I don't agree with the assertion that we are playing with a man down. He is a good quality ruckman and that is what he is in the side for.

And the statement that he doesn't kick anymore isn't quite right. For what it's worth, his average kicks per game and his kick to handball ratio were far higher in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010.

Here's an interesting analysis of the 2011 ruckmen:

http://playerrater.c...isticalanalysis

I'm trying to find a good analysis of the 2012 season. Jamar's average taps per game was up this year, though I would imagine he wasn't quite as efficient. But then, neither was the midfield he was rucking for.

He may get the stats for hit-outs, but very few of them have been effective. We need clearances not just hit-outs. He does bugger all around the ground - takes very few marks, few possessions and can't / won't kick. How many 1 percenters such as shepherds? Really quite a disappointment. Edited October 22, 2012 by monoccular

[Little Richard 6,262]

He may get the stats for hit-outs, but very few of them have been effective. We need clearances not just hit-outs. He does bugger all around the ground - takes very few marks, few possessions and can't / won't kick. How many 1 percenters such as shepherds? Really quite a disappointment.

We do need a midfield to get clearances... Jones can't do it all on his own.

[Alcho Dee 269]

He may get the stats for hit-outs, but very few of them have been effective. We need clearances not just hit-outs. He does bugger all around the ground - takes very few marks, few possessions and can't / won't kick. How many 1 percenters such as shepherds? Really quite a disappointment.

He is committed to Melbourne, offers experience to our young players and young rucks. He was AA not so long ago behind Sandilands which is a fine achievement. We saw how good he was when in combination with moloney. Has been disappointing in recent times, along with 95% of the players.

Go easy mono.

[monoccular 17,417]

I have looked at those stats - I must say from a spectator's point of view I find the 50 percent hit-out to advantage stat very surprising. Do others?

[Older demon 2,741]

If what we are talking about is basically a trade of Martin to get Pederson then I think the club has it wrong. Pederson could not get a game at North even when they were a little undersized down back and had no backup ruck man. What is the attraction he has been in the system one basically playing 12 games and got only 2 this year? I thought the idea was to trade up not down. Under the new rules Martin is a better option than jamar who last year could only tap the ball at his feet, rarely took a mark and could miss goals from the goal square and rarely if ever plays a full season. Martin must be the back up or even 1st ruck as Spencer isn't athletic enough and gawn is coming off his second knee reco and will need time. I think Fitzy is the one we will need to develop and shows the most upside.

[monoccular 17,417]

We do need a midfield to get clearances... Jones can't do it all on his own.

but what about the lack of activity around the ground - marks, shepherds etc?? Martin >> Jamar here.

[Moonshadow 17,675]

He may get the stats for hit-outs, but very few of them have been effective. We need clearances not just hit-outs. He does bugger all around the ground - takes very few marks, few possessions and can't / won't kick. How many 1 percenters such as shepherds? Really quite a disappointment.

Sums it up perfectly. ^^^^

[rpfc 28,305]

Jamar is better value with a better midfield and that is what we all aspire to have yes?

[Dr. Gonzo 24,203]

I have looked at those stats - I must say from a spectator's point of view I find the 50 percent hit-out to advantage stat very surprising. Do others?

Where did you get the "hitout to advantage" stats. Can't find them online anywhere.

[Little Richard 6,262]

Jamar is better value with a better midfield and that is what we all aspire to have yes?

Obviously yes. There is no point in Jamar getting the taps when our mids are out muscled and beaten to the ball anyway. Bigger bodies, more aggression and a better understanding of each other (the midfield group) and the Russians taps will be used much more efficiently.

[Brian Wilson 331]

He may get the stats for hit-outs, but very few of them have been effective. We need clearances not just hit-outs. He does bugger all around the ground - takes very few marks, few possessions and can't / won't kick. How many 1 percenters such as shepherds? Really quite a disappointment.

The whole point of that link was to show that he does get effective hitouts.

I'll post it again:

http://playerrater.c...isticalanalysis

This states that in 2011 he had the best % hitout to advantage in the league. The best. Bar none. So the assertion that he gets hitous but they aren't effective is obviously wrong.

And again, there is a reason that our FD gave him a three year deal this year while holding off on signing so many other players.

[Axis of Bob 11,773]

Good stats.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The whole point of that link was to show that he does get effective hitouts.

I'll post it again:

http://playerrater.c...isticalanalysis

This states that in 2011 he had the best % hitout to advantage in the league. The best. Bar none. So the assertion that he gets hitous but they aren't effective is obviously wrong.

And again, there is a reason that our FD gave him a three year deal this year while holding off on signing so many other players.

Very good stats.

Damn those facts to explode a Dland myth

[Roger Mellie 4,002]

Interesting stats - I'd like to see 2012's figures and suspect Sauce Jacobs has moved up the list

The question is can the big russian find his way back to 2011 form

[Moonshadow 17,675]

Those stats are pretty good for Jamar, albeit over 12 mths old.

So in summary, he's much better at the tap than Martin, but Martin does much more around the ground than Jamar. They are different types of players. Each has their deficiencies. We get it.

Which will lead us into a premiership window? More than likely neither. Which has more trade value now? Jamar.

My point is that if we trade for a high draft pick - eg. 14 for use on a mid - and work a deal to get Grundy at pick 4, then we benefit in the long term considerably.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Moonshadow

[DEE fence 5,007]

it is premature to get rid of one of the few big bodies we have in Jamar, even after Neitz lost a step no opposition ever took the gorilla lightly, why on earth would we get rid of one of our heavy cannons

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Jamar.

[Brian Wilson 331]

Those stats are pretty good for Jamar, albeit over 12 mths old.

So in summary, he's much better at the tap than Martin, but Martin does much more around the ground than Jamar. They are different types of players. Each has their deficiencies. We get it.

Which will lead us into a premiership window? More than likely neither. Which has more trade value now? Jamar.

My point is that if we trade for a high draft pick - eg. 14 for use on a mid - and work a deal to get Grundy at pick 4, then we benefit in the long term considerably.

What do you want from your ruckman: better tap work or doing more 'around the ground'? The FD seem to have given their answer.

I can't see GWS trading 14 for Jamar. But nor would I want to.

Will Jamar lead us 'in' a premiership window? Probably not. Will he lead us 'into' a premiership window? I hope so. And I think that the FD see him as an important part of helping our young midfield to improve.

As we have so painfully seen, you can't just throw a bunch of draftees into a team and expect it to click. It might, but probably won't. We need to surround the youngsters with experienced players who can help them get into the game. Which position is the first one you need to fill to do this? The ruck.

Our mids have enough trouble getting the ball as it is. Do we want to trade away our best tap ruckman?

Grundy may end up being a very good ruckman but youngsters don't usually play as first ruck straight away.

[Moonshadow 17,675]

What do you want from your ruckman: better tap work or doing more 'around the ground'? The FD seem to have given their answer.

I can't see GWS trading 14 for Jamar. But nor would I want to.

Will Jamar lead us 'in' a premiership window? Probably not. Will he lead us 'into' a premiership window? I hope so. And I think that the FD see him as an important part of helping our young midfield to improve.

As we have so painfully seen, you can't just throw a bunch of draftees into a team and expect it to click. It might, but probably won't. We need to surround the youngsters with experienced players who can help them get into the game. Which position is the first one you need to fill to do this? The ruck.

Our mids have enough trouble getting the ball as it is. Do we want to trade away our best tap ruckman?

Grundy may end up being a very good ruckman but youngsters don't usually play as first ruck straight away.

All good points. Reluctantly agree with what you all have to say on the topic. In Neeld I trust, and he saw the need for a 3 yr deal for Jamar.

Part of me thinks Jamar can only tap, he's 29, injury prone and his best days are gone. I look at trade value and think he may be worth more as a trade, perhaps to GWS, than what he will bring us over the next 3 years. But I acknowledge he is a big body, shows good strength in the ruck contests and gets his palm to the ball far more than Martin, Gawn or Spencer. We have lost much experience. This is an invaluable asset.

I guess what I am pleading for is a ruckman who will consistantly perform and lead us into the next ten years, who will be our Cox, our Sandi, our Jolly (what irony). Grundy has the goods, according to those draft watchers in the know.

I believe we live off Jamar's one AA year and conveiniently forget the other 6-8 poor years and 1 or 2 average years he has given us. I understand that without Jamar, our ruck stocks are wafer thin ATM, but also that we have been without Jamar for much of the past couple of years.

If Jamar does not have a big resurgence in 2013, our mids will get pounded again and Dawes and Clark will probably spend the season counting their bundles of money in the goal square.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Moonshadow