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Summary: Goodwin hates Watts because Watts is tall and good looking, and Goodwin was an ugly, late developing runt. Sorry Biff, but this ranks up there with the biggest load of garbage in this thread, and the competition is fierce. Are people wildly missing the point on purpose or what?

It's actually laughable people are getting so worked up and emotional about Jack leaving. Of course it shows passion, but to me it's wildly misguided. Who do you barrack for: Jack Watts or the MFC? Talk of conspiracies at the BnF, within the FD and potshoting Goodwin. It's like certain supporters have hitched their wagons so closely to Jack due to the [censored] they've been through together (and the failure of past adminstrations and FDs), that they can't possibly see his flaws or, that what is best for him (and the footy club, which is why we should be here), is to move on. He has great skills and decision-making, but he rarely lays tackles and can't mark above his head. He's played one good season in 9 and played really good/great games a handful of times in the other 8 seasons. Yes, he's been loyal, but so have the MFC. I could understand the angst if this was Clarry, who appears to be a generational talent, but a football club is bigger than any one individual. How some supporters can lampoon this FD for one decision, after the brilliant way they've managed the club over the past 4 years, is absurd IMO and totally over emotional. At page 456 or whatever we're at, some need to decide whether they're rational enough to separate their support of Watts and their support of the Melbourne Football Club. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll be sad to see Jack play in other colours, but I'll support my footy club - that's why I'm here. Not for one player, particularly one that has, I think most agree, underachieved. And before some say it, no, it is not purely up to coaches to get the best out of players. It is also up to the player to take control of their own professionalism and training, and get the most out of themselves. Jack hasn't, otherwise he'd have reached the potential many still talk about. And finally, let's not make this about potshotting each other. We're all Melbourne and some love Jack and some don't, but letting one player or one decision divide us is pointless, childish and dangerous. At the end of the day, all parties need to support the club. Some can continue supporting Watts and the MFC and others, like myself, can wish him well, but purely support the MFC and their decision-making in this instance. This year I've made a cognisant decision to live in the grey. Rarely is anything black and white, except perhaps my hatred of certain opposition teams. ? Let's all acknowledge that there's a complexity to the Watts trade (the grey if you like) without leaping on each other and simply support our football club. If any one post could exemplify the grey, it's my ramblings in this post alone.

3937 post in the Jack Watts thread and he is still here. 3675 posts in the Lever thread and he is still not here. 2482 posts in the trade thread and still no trades.

I have had mail today from a reliable source on the situation.. Watts was initially told some hard truths in his exit meeting, which he did not agree with. The club (which we know) asked him to explore his options if he was not willing to change his habits. Watts was filthy initially but has not nominated a club of choice because he’s not sure he wants to go. The club is now believing he is a 60/40 chance to stay. If he does go, it won’t be for nothing.

This post reminds me of the howls of indignation during the 2015 draft period before Mahoney and co worked some magic, which netted two top 10 picks and our current Best & Fairest winner. How about we have a bit of trust and not climb walls every time we hear a suggestion, or even a deal ?

How easily 2013 is forgotten. A time when we would regularly lose by 10+ goals, when matches were over at 1/4 time, when supporters came to games knowing we had almost no chance to win, when drafting and development of players had been shambolic, when many players were wanting to leave, when no players from opposition clubs with any modicum of talent wanted anything to do with us, when the culture was so poor that players didn't even know the level of work required to be a professional AFL player, when the talent on our list was so far below AFL standard that Terlich and Jones finished top 4 in our best and fairest... This club was in an extremely precarious position only four years ago. I'm not going to go into the things Roos has done, but in the space of four years (one year under Goodwin) we are now a team that is attractive to elite young talent, players want to stay, is expected to play finals, tough and competitive, has exciting young talent, can develop young players and can beat any opposition side on any given day. The turnaround is quite remarkable and anyone of us would have grabbed this in a second if offered it back in 2013. It's not just Roos. And Roos has never said it was just about him - he was very quick to point out it's about having good people. But Roos was a significant part of the turnaround and did everything we could've expected from him. The "easiest coaching job in the world". Funny that, because at the time Roos was appointed it was being described as one of the hardest and one to avoid if you wanted a career in coaching. As I said, just think back to what we were in 2013.

Ten things that I noticed from the 2017 Best and Fairest ... 1. Clarry is a star. Wins B&F in a landslide. He will only get better. Speech was raw but effective. 2. Viney is loved by the coaches. Not at his best but his heart is huge. His raw determination and ability to play injured obviously got him votes. A true leader and I can see premiership drives this young man. 3. Jack Trengove. A champion. A champion bloke. Sadly cruelled by injury. Very popular and all class. Overcome with emotions. He will be missed. 4. Close outcome from second to sixth. I thought Hibberd would be runner up but he was very unlucky as it was a handful of votes behind Jones, Lewis & Jetta. Surprised to see Lewis in 3rd but his value is more than just stats. 5. Daisy Pearce is an absolute star. Hope the AFL and MFC appreciate her for what change she is leading and delivering. We are lucky to have her in red and blue. 6. Nathan Jones. Great speech. Brief ? Perhaps not but very very effective. Gotta love him. 7. The coaching rhetoric of culture and standards. Clearly a message to all and what Goodwin demands. Not since Mark Neeld have we had such military style direction at the B&F. I think we are heading up unlike what Neeld created. 8. Nev Jetta. What a player!! One of my favourites. Rarely rarely beaten one on one. Won us the game v Carlton. Considering he was delisted then rookied, it is a great story. Great reward and well done. 9. Jack Watts is hugely popular amongst the supporters and players. It will be a sad day to see him in opposition colours. 10. The disappointment of missing finals will hurt. It should. Jonesy’s speech showed how much it hurt. I felt a sense of ‘Bring it on in 2018’. Unleash hell !!! Go Demons

Watts is gone. I've accepted this. I just hope we get an okay pick for him and don't have to pay any of his salary going forward. What really concerns me is not this though. It's about professional management standards and principles, something that the club is saying it's delivering in spades at the moment. Despite the noise here, it is abundantly clear that this situation has been handled poorly. And, relevantly, it need not have been. In this regard, it seems clear that Watts did not know that this was a likely outcome, even at exit interview stage. That he should have worked it out, he should have joined the dots on it etc, is in my opinion irrelevant. I accept that he did not know. And he strikes me as being a reasonably intelligent adult. He's also been in the system for a long time, so I expect he generally has some idea about how this stuff rolls. I don't know what anyone else here does for a living, does in their life etc. We just share a love for this football club. In my day to day life, I manage a team of people, all of whom have finished in at least the top 1% of the State, have achieved a distinction average degree from a leading university and have options with employers other than where I apply my trade. Managing them in an appropriate and professional way is critical to my success, to their success, and, relevantly, to the success of the team. In this context, regular and constructive feedback is essential. Clear and effective communication is critical. If any of them come to their bi-annual performance review, and they don't know exactly how they're tracking, I have let them down. They're all very clever, but, if they genuinely don't know where they're at, it is my fault. Not theirs. They 'should've known' is simply not an excuse, not remotely. Some of the dinosaurs around me manage their teams like that, suffice to say they're talked about like Harvey Weinstein. Their behaviours and management style in not sustainable in 2017. We had an unusually gifted people manager in Paul Roos. He is a very rare individual, particularly in footy circles. I used to observe him in a management sense, and wish I could be half as good as him. He would be better than most CEOs in this country if he ever had the inclination to get into the corporate world. He's far too zen for that, obviously. How he turned around this basket case of a club after the Neeld years is simply astonishing. He created a decent culture. He rebuilt trust. He communicated in such an assured and deliberate way. He commanded respect. That people here are dismissing his views is regrettable. He is not on the outside. He knows this club. He knows the players. And the coaches. He knows footy. I'm concerned that this unfortunate saga is being managed by a few ex-footy players who lack the sophistication of Paul Roos. They lack the soft hands. It's blunt instrument territory. And, in my view, those skills are needed on this one, even if it is ultimately in everyone's interests for Jack Watts to be elsewhere. Something is clearly not good here - that we have 150 pages of heated discussion on the issue on a supporters forum is sufficient evidence of this. You can bet that many of the players are furiously texting each other about it too. Here's to a good 2018. I hope we land Lever for not too much pain. And get a good player in return for Watts. I'll be very disappointed with anything less.

Whoever came up with that quote originally clearly has never had kids! Babies sleep really well when you want to be awake and like crap when you want to be asleep! Little sods! ? PS I love my kids and would only trade them for 3 first round picks each.

If we are stretched it is the most over paid list in AFL history. Our club and players have done nothing since 2006, we have improved but still haven't embarked on a finals campaign for a very long time

fwiw..I dont think the salary cap has any bearing at all.

McQueen I'm not debating with you Watts performance or history as a player. I was questioning your attribution of motive to the support Jack received by those in attendance at the B&F and offered you some alternative reasons for why he may have received support on the night. He may also have received support because like me, many would think that the club has managed this process exceptionally poorly. For those that ask how it could have been done differently cast your minds back to when Brock left, it was a very similar situation. And I've no intention of including myself in the general debate on Watts. What on earth could be said that hasn't been stated by many over 150 pages of posts? I will say though that when history is written the Jack Watt's chapter is not one our club should have any sense of pride over. Rarely has a player been treated so poorly by so many.

There is talk that Melbourne are considering giving up 1st pick for 2017 and 2018. If we agree to Adelaide’s demands then it shows that our recruiting department have no idea. Grow some balls, stick by your original plan and make Adelaide sweat that lever will walk away for nothing. As it stands at the moment lever isn’t even in your top ten best players... only a top 10 player in the whole league is worth 2 first picks

It's interesting to look at Goodwins football life and reflect on why he has taken this step. Short,small,late developer, with little or no chance of being selected at AFL level at 17. Watts was tall athletic ,skilled and starred for Vic Metro-had a huge spotlight shone upon him. Watts makes friends easily and has a beaming smile.Has made plenty of mistakes and gets made to pay for them. Goodwin was involved at Essendon during the drugs saga, had a severe gambling addiction and faced the abyss before Roos picked both men up and re-ignited them. Roos is a superior spiritual being and I hope /wish he would call them both and put this thing in it's proper perspective . There is some short mans syndrome evident in Goodwins actions. There is a millionaire attitude to Watts ,perhaps because he has never had to fight as hard as Goodwin did for his career. I will view it as a failure by Goodwin if Watts leaves.I can think only of the roar of the crowd next year if when Watts DOES crunch tackles of take pack marks, or make desperate saves in defence. I'm still hoping it's with us. Forlorn as the hope might seem.

I like Jack, and hope he somehow stays, but that seems very unlikely. However he was told at the start of the year that he must meet certain conditions... and he didn't. He was told again mid year... and he didn't. Then he gets told to look elsewhere and is shocked. Yes the media play out is ugly, but, sheeeit, what do you do? Do we want Clarry or Trac to ever think that coasting is OK. We aren't (or at least shouldn't be) the boys club of the 2000's. That was a dead end street. Put in or [censored] off. It's that simple.

More talk. Same every year. Absolutely sick of the chest puffing talk. Jones and coshould have been livid after putting them into the situation of winning the last game when they had many chances to ensure that they played finals this year. Once again they failed, once again they started talking and coming across like they are angry and up for the fight... then come game day they lose to the bottom teams... constantly.

Pick 29 for Watts isn't far off the money considering we traded a late 20's pick for this year's all Australian back pocket. Meanwhile Watts failed to make the All Australian 240 squad.

And 100% of them have no say in the matter

Good on Ralph for spending the whole of five minutes to research and write that article.

153 pages, 153 games played. Is it a coincidence? I think not. You heard it here first. #ETthetradebreaker.

If Watts loves the club so much and wants to stay, then refuse a trade and stay. There's one way to prove the coaches are wrong, bust your arse on the training track, force your way into the firsts and play to your full potential, simple. Personally I hope he has the heart, and balls, to stay and prove the footy department wrong.

Perhaps my last contribution to this discussion. I have watched Jack Watts both during games and at training since he joined the club. I was at his debut when no-one flew the flag on his behalf when he got his first touch and right through to the end of 2016 when I moved O/S. I have seen him run selflessly week after week and watched him being ignored by his team mates. And wondered why the coaches didn't instruct others to honour leads. I have been amazed that his loyalty to the club hasn't wavered and wondered why, unlike another No.1 pick, he didn't tell the MFC to GAGF. I still believe that the club will be poorer IN EVERY REGARD if he goes. To me, it is a sad indictment of all (except Roos) his coaches both line and senior that they haven't been able to help him reach his potential. Macca may be great with the kids but he too has let JW down. If he does leave, I hope that he continues to disappoint but I know in my gut that he's a great player and will rise to the top with the right coaching. I have watched this team since 1957 and genuinely believe JW has the wherewithal to be one of the greats. Goodwin is simply wrong and everyone will suffer for his poor judgement.

The deal mooted on the AFL site would be fine by me - our first rounder this year and next for Lever and a late first round, very early second round pick. I think that's pretty fair to be honest.

For those out in Demonland who think trading Watts for a high 20's pick- here's some name for you. In the last 10 years the players that went at 28 and the games they played: 2007 Marlan Motlop - 0 2008 Shaun McKernon - 52 2009 Mitch Duncan - 159 2010 Ryan Lester - 102 2011 Fraser McInnes - 11 2012 Tim Obrien - 34 2013 Lewis Taylor - 85 2014 Dillon Viojo - Rainbow - 0 2015 Luke Partington - 6 Hardly a whos who of AFL Another interesting fact for those that think Watts was not a good get (i admit he went too high at no1). Of the top 20 draft picks in Jack's year he has played the 6th highest number of games. I am yet again in "the confusion room" Why trade a 150 game player with elite skills for a roll of the dice in the draft? What if we get a Marlan Motlop????

Ha! This place was in meltdown, with people were prepping their pitch-forks and torches! 24 hours later, he was declared a genius.

Nearing the end of day 3 and the updates are as follows:

For those interested. For the Watts haters, please direct comments to Ralphy, I'm just doing a copy and paste. --- IS JACK WATTS REALLY THAT BAD? Jon Ralph - Herald Sun JACK Watts is gone from Melbourne, pushed out in an amazing turn of events. He probably doesn’t care to look back any more given he has moved on to touring clubs like Geelong and Port Adelaide. -----------

Surely the top demand must be: The Darwin game be scheduled immediately before the bye for both teams involved (and the same for Cairns games if they still exist).

The highlighted part seems to be the footy departments issue

There's no way he can stay.. IMO that bridge is burnt.

I feel sorry for anyone who listens to that Trade Radio. They've been going from 7am to 6pm every day since Monday and not one trade has happened. What the fark would they have to talk about by today?

Please. I'm a lefty Green voter. ProDee's right wing views are well known here. It appears we are of a like mind on this issue. This is footy. Don't link this footy club decision with politics.

You want to avoid the stadium where we played out best footy at? I'd happily play a home game at Etihad if it means we'll play the style of footy that was on show in our great wins over St Kilda, Essendon and Bulldogs this year. If we're going to keep dishing out the garbage and complacent MCG efforts like we did against Freo, North and Collingwood, then I'm all for playing more games at Etihad.

It's patent nonsense Connors has "blasted" the club. I look forward to your quotes. It surprises me that so many older Demon posters, who've been starved of success want to keep this leg weight.

I think I just opened up a primary school chat room. Wtf is with this thread childish sniping by long time supporters not to mention the gullible nature of people who take anything GNF and COMB say as having any validity

Watts is not a ‘scapegoat’, BnF points weren’t deducted from him to make it easier for the club to convince supporters of his trade. There is no conspiracy. He has not been asked to seek a trade just because of his on field performances, there’s obviously more going on behind the scenes that we’re not completely privy to. All this concern and second guessing of Goodwin as a coach and person is ridiculous.

That's fair but I'm only responding to the request of another poster and in so doing defending the record of a first year coach that is under siege by some because of his audacity to move on one player. If he'd made decisions in the past that had torn at the fabric and the culture of the club then I too would be cautious but instead he's taken significant steps forward. Maybe it's the coach in me that admires someone who has a vision and is prepared to back up the talk with decisions that he knows will be unpopular. He talks of culture and a team-first mentality. And the talk has evolved into action. Did you listen to the B and F? Did you hear how much work a rough around the edges Clayton Oliver did to have the season that he had? Did you hear our co-captain praise the work ethic and commitment of the coach. Our values aren't being re-aligned each year. This is year four of a calculated, clinical transformation of the club. The loss of Watts understandably stings some but it's clear to me why the coach has made the call. I'm pretty sure I voted in favour of keeping Jack in the poll attached to this thread. I like the guy. And I'm pretty sure Goodwin does too but it became clear that not only Goodwin but key players and staff at the club are prepared to put the club first. They have a responsibility to their members to do everything they can to bring us a premiership and create a list and a club environment that will foster sustainable success. I can't believe some would believe Goodwin and others would trade Jack if they thought that would make us less likely to succeed.

Seems there are some who would "dream of recruiting him". Dangerfield? Roos? Hinkley, etc etc. Lot of interest... Dangerfield has first-hand experience, from this year, of how Watts could strip him of the ball and deliver... This IS, clearly, about how we judge people. Watts is a larger-than-life PERSON, and has attracted opinions like a magnet ever since he curved in that first goal for Sandringham. I think he has a charismatic presence, and the Moloneys, Neelds, Joneses of the club have never understood his particular differentness. But, in their unimaginative focus on what they themselves were, they couldn't accept and embrace the obvious excellences he brought, in skill, intelligence and human culture (morale - like Gawn). Some would say a club needs such people in the goldfishbowl. Some historian once observed that nobody studying American History had any idea whether or not Abraham Lincoln balanced the budget; nobody cared either, because he abolished slavery. Lots of illegitimate children, I've heard, to coloured women - starting to get criticised now, but not really what his place in history really is either. Well, Watts' contribution to the club has been woefully handled since day one. His leads have been ignored forever, and you say he can't mark overhead - I remember a lot of last-line-of-defence marks he's taken late in the quarter. But, even since we have all known he is the absolute best finisher in the team, still they ignore his leads into space. Jones as much as anyone. Watts' place in the history of MFC is going to be recognised as a lost opportunity; and while there'll no doubt be criticism of his application, the story of how he was not boosted up by being USED to the maximum, not recognised for what he was, is going to be clearer and clearer over time. I'll bet it will be coupled with the criticism of Jurrah's "defensive skills", which drowned out appreciation of what he did bring - unmatched goal-kicking - and general kicking - instinct and prowess. It is so disappointing to see diversity at MFC being flushed away in the general trend to right-wing thuggery that is ascendant in the western world today. So disappointing. I'm old, and I remember different times. I wasn't going to have any more to say on Demonland, but, boy some of the flat denial of the obvious is provoking.

Adelaide are in no position to negotiate. Either take what Melbourne gives you or the kid walks into the draft and Melbourne get him for free. Trelor was worth 2 first rounders. Lever is no where near trelor. Giving Crows 1st and 2nd round picks imo is still overs.

1. Club has run out of patience. After 9 years and 150 games there should be games he dominates. He has cameos but NEVER "dominates" games. 2. Yes, Jack was surprised, which is telling in itself. 3. Connors mentioned his elite pressure stats. I don't care what the stats say. I've watched Watts for years and his pressure is anything but elite.

I listened to the entire SEN interview that these articles are based on and Connors comments were directed at the Dogs. He never "blasted" Melbourne whatsoever. You'll note that the article linked below is also a take from that SEN interview and correctly the author refers to comments displeasure at the Dogs and NOT Melbourne. http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-10/stringer-camp-slams-dogs-over-total-backflip

The guy legitimately saved this club. His words count. Terrible post.

Are you now judging him on that nonsensical standard? You are obviously not, but can we stop reacting to the most ridiculous aspects of the arguments on here? This conversation is being dominated by the extremes because of that reaction. The vast majority on here wish it ended differently, wish him all the best, wish we get some value for him and wishes it will be over soon.

AS earlier stated Connors his manager has come out and blasted the club. After initially saying the process was ok clearly something has changed and Connors has been highly critical of the way the club has managed it. We all have seen how Connors looks after his boys and he is the one who has helped Jack get his head around the idea that Melbourne don't want him. Jack will trust his manager to do right by him. If, initially it was a strategy to give Jack a fright it certainly hasn't panned out that way and my suspision is that Jack's departure was always the agenda (based on Brendan Mccartney's comments at a lunch the day before the G.F.) Personally I don't like it myself but I am not making the decisions at MFC and one only has to look at the collateral damage on this thread to see how badly it has polarised the supporters. I also have my concerns about Goody, and his B&F speech left me cold (actually thought it was Mark Neeld again) but Roos is a hard act to follow. I believe Jack will move on and wish him all the best in the future

Did I see someone refer to Watts as potentially being one of the all time greats? That's probably the most unhinged comment I've seen in this thread. He's shown himself to be nothing of the sort.

Hopefully Daisy can lead the women's team to a few flags before her time is up. It would be great to talk about her as a premiership winning club champion decades from now.

Wow we are seeing some unhinged comments now.

No humour in this post Gonz. I read some earlier posts that mentioned Watts was a scapegoat, the assertion being that Goodwin and the club are somehow shifting the blame onto him for us not making the finals. There seems to be a lot of tin foil hats on around here. Unfortunately I don’t do serious very well.