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I've been watching training totally unaware that Jetta can no longer cut it...... He has that quality that Goodwin has been talking about, 'composure under pressure'. He is rarely beaten, and if he is beaten he wants to go on with it! He get's downright unsociable if an opponent plays him for a fool. He can play close, very close... is clever with his holding and harassing tactics, rarely gets pulled up by the umps! He is a superb tackler and can bring even the giants to the ground (just ask Max). He seems to have a very good grip on the game plan, both defensively and offensively. Yep, I reckon he is in trouble holding down a spot, all right, about as much trouble as Nathan Jones is in!

Are we allowed to discuss any player weaknesses? Trengove is a much admired person here and everywhere. Most would think that his (lack of) speed is the one thing holding him back. Should we stop people who have been to training from commenting on it because it's "bleating". You think he's fast enough and others don't. Let them have their say. For the record, he wouldn't be doing the special work on his speed if it wasn't an issue. It's a moot point Saty, time will tell but we are discussing it. Nobody is wishing him ill.

I thought Trengove looked more like he did in years one and two than 2016. He has his balance and composure back to its best. He was never quick, but he is/was a quick thinker. I have no doubt he has recovered from a career threatening injury. Our whole list is better than it was when he was drafted, so it won't be easy for him to knock the door down, but if he gets a run he won't be letting anyone down!

What a lot of hooey and hogwash. Jack Trengove has shown the ability to get to the contest, win the ball and deliver it to advantage. That's all we want from him. Speed is but one attribute that contributes to the ability to get to the contest. Others include reading the flight of the ball, making good decisions on when to go the the contest, being in the right place when the ball arrives and being able to evade your opponent. On the other hand, foot speed is valuable to escape being tackled but thought speed and hand speed are just as important in delivering the ball to advantage. Williams and Mitchell have been cited as examples of slow players who nevertheless displayed footy brilliance. Their special skills were showcased by the players around them who instinctively knew where to be to receive the ball. That takes patient coaching and many games played together as a team. Jack has never had that luxury and he has been expected to carry too much of the load at a time when the club was unable to develop its list. The ongoing criticisms of Jack for being too slow are unwarranted and unfair. He is a genuine footballer and deserves the chance to play in a good, competitive team to show his wares. He might surprise.

Reference to Trengove and his lack of speed has become repetitious. Lets give the guy a chance to show his stuff and determine if his attributes outweigh his apparent lack of speed. There are others that "lack a yard" so he is not alone. I hope the selectors give him a chance, however, he going to have to earn his spot.

I went for the full three hours today. One of my first times at training but there was a number of things that really impressed me and I'll outline what I say below. 1) At the beginning of training I was listening to Jade Rawlings telling a fellow spectator that they were trying to drill in to our players that the second they mark the ball they turn around to see there options, almost in the one move. This drill was practiced initially and was expected to occur naturally in every other drill that followed throughout the day with the idea of moving the ball quicker. 2) Skills were reasonably good for mid January and they trained quiet well. 3) Standout performers today for me; Melksham - THE standout for me, was running hard and fast and using the ball extremely well. Showed no sign of rust and off the back of what I saw today I am confident hes going to have an excellent year for us. Had a lot of the ball in the ball movement drills and didn't turn the ball over once, found a 2 really good long lead's 50m+ kicks to a nice hit up lead. Hogan - Was really really pushing himself all day and his body looks to have really matured. He finished the day marking against various opponents (Spencer, Hibberd, Tommy Mac and Weid) He was very very dominant in these and even one or two that he never should of got to, he managed to spoil. I think hes going to have a monster year. Ben Kennedy - Was hungry to show himself. Kicked a nice couple of goals in the match sim (ball movement sim), got the ball a lot. was running hard, creating and using it well. Hibberd - was excellent one on one throughout the day and can definitely hold his own against bigger bodies. His disposal was really nice. Hannan - was in the rehab group and he really really impressed me. He has a really nice kick on him, beautiful hands and is just one of those guys that looks super co-ordinated. From what i saw today he will play games for us in 2017. Lewis - the usual (god he's a beautiful kick) Max - trained really hard and pushed the group Watts - similar to max (also kicked a number of goals in the match sim (ball movement sim). Managed to get one of the few intercepts when playing for the outnumbered defensive team and its fair to say he enjoyed it. Salem - similar to Lewis, his kicking is absolutely delightful to watch. Quite sure the boys were calling him 'Sarge' not sure if thats a new thing or I was mishearing but seems appropriate. Weid - Wasn't able to win a 1v1 in the same company as i mentioned Jesse was in earlier at the end of training but impressed me throughout. He was using the ball very well in ball movement drills. 4) Negatives? There weren't many. I love christian petracca but it was interesting that at one point when it was his turn to play the defensive role he didnt put in much effort and Macca yelled at him "you are letting the team down by not defending to the best of your ability" It was obvious this [censored] him off a bit but it was good. The boys were really challenging him to get the most out of himself in the running as well. I think we will see the best of christian when he drives himself to get there more, which I have no doubt he will. Happy to answer any questions if you have any!

You are not the moral compass of this forum. Nor do you decide what is a 'discussion' or not. I find your shooting down of other posters insufferable.

I agree with you Dante but I disagree with the size of the group. My view is a vocal few. the majority want him to succeed. My view is the guy played injured for some time after Neeld through the captaincy at him. The club has given him an extra season and I believe 99% of supporters want him to be great. Nothing would please me more than to see him as a regular in 2017.

On Jack Trengove, looking like he did before the injury, because he doesn't leave scorch marks on the grass some assume he is slow. Doesn't get caught out for speed in the match sims, and as we are still 2 months away from actually playing, and he is doing work on his burst speed, assume he will get better still

PF Training report Arrived at 10.30 and Fillipovic, Hannan and Neal Bullen in rehab group taken by Crossy and others 1st impressions Fillipovic reminded me of Juice Newton in physique ( There, got that one outa the way), Hannan bigger than expected but really Neal Bullen won't be in rahab long as his skilled ball work and fitness were evident and sublime. Earlier Tyson and Kent ran some laps interpersed with rests and stretches, Tyson ( NO TAPE on knee or ankle eviden)t. Both kicking balls latter but went inside as main groups arrive. Training as intense and varied as I have seen 2 and a half hour plus session with plenty of ball work interspersed with some gut running. OBSERVATIONS 1 Drills set so that correct decision making gets rewarded with fluent and precise set ups for loose man who then sets up scoring opportunity 2 Specifically I was near punt rd fence and one drill conisted of 70r 8 againast 5 with pressure on ball carrier to be precise in executing correct option for handball 3 The variation of this was that colored shirts Blue, Green Orange White used so that the players had to pinpiont a deignated shirt color in sequence and produce correct play. This I believe simulates match conditions where variable options for attack are called for. Macca at one stage instructed players to set up in a V delta so as to have options. He also said if anyone fumbles you must go in and assist teammate 4 Another drill using half the ground and again variations of zone defence in colored shirts vs Blue shirts setting up scoring options. This was very good and really again tested positioning quick ball movement and correct options undr pressure. In fact all traing drills had a random component with pressure and correct options and hard running to position. PLAYERS a few random selections Hibberd , I would hate to run into him in a dark alley fearsome physique reminding me of one Byron Picket several axe handles across the chest and with quickness, skills and GRUNT Melksham, another great pick up. elusive quick and makes good decsions. Lewis usual self assured performance very good pick up Ben Ken, Clarry Choo, Choo Clearance machine, Watts, Hogan, Stretch , Smith, Harmes, Jones all very very good Gawn customary and new recruits all look good sizes with physiques which look AFL Ready. This is a good thing, No more easily brushed of the ball players. Petracca has an "Odd" Physique very low centre of Gravity which explains why he keeps his feet in contests. Nev Jetta gee he reads the play so well!. Wagner also came under notice with some good ball usage and attack. Players look fit strong and able!! A few negatives ( well I have to say it and anyone else who was there would back this up). Trengove is cooked !!several times he appeared in drills to be running on the spot with no acceleration and pace seems to have gone. A pity really! Tom Mac makes skill errors in drills so no surprise in a game for mine! I believe the focus has changed with more emphasis on correct positioning, correct disposal options and upgraded skill development. We also look very fit! An over 2.30 hour intensive session in the heat and I saw little signs of fatigue! Go DEES Yours PF Happy to engage in dialogue fellow Demonlanders'

I'm not keen on censorship. I'm a Trengove fan, but I don't bleat about every opinion I disagree with. Clint said Trengove has been slow since 2011. I don't agree, but he's entitled to his view. I don't take it personally. I'm a free speech advocate, but it appears some of you only want to read opinions you like. I'd understand if some views were malicious, but they haven't been. Even then, it's not a crime to offend (or shouldn't be). Don't ever try to regulate discussion, which is what some are trying to do. If you don't like some comments, or disagree, just accept that some hold a different view. Either jog on, or challenge their opinion. But never try to regulate thought.

Is it fair to say that those lamenting the lack of speed they perceive with Trengove are doing so within the framework of him busting into our "best 22"? Maybe some are getting sucked into the "spud or star" mentality that footy player discussion almost always comes down to? Trengove is on a 1 year contract on (what you'd imagine would be) the minimum player wage. He's a 25 year old former pick 2 and noted for his leadership ability and footy nous. Why can't we look at his spot on the list from the position of reality? Chances are he is not going to become the star he was once destined to be, but are we doing a disservice to our list analysis by only focusing on that? If he can get his body right and continue the fine VFL form he showed last year, then why wouldn't we keep him on his list at the rate of pay relative to his output rather than his draft order? If one (or more) of Jones, Viney, Tyson or Lewis go down, Trengove is a solid replacement, and that could be his spot on our list. You never have 40+ stars, you have a few guns and then role players. That's Trengove's spot going forward IMO. So let's look at his value from that perspective, rather than obsessing over his speed because we're trying to fit him into a list of 22-25 players where contributing speed becomes a defining factor.

I like to read discussion on the skills and merits of players such as Trengove, including foot speed. Thanks to those contributing to this. I chuckle at the irony of those that can't accept critical discussion about players and feel the need to use labels such as mob mentality, venting or bleating. I hope to get to training once or twice in the next couple of weeks and promise to not to get offended or upset if someone sees different on here. It's a footy forum FFS!

I for one am astounded ( as pleased as punch for the bloke ) that he's got to this point. All bets are off and every player for themselves in having a crack at a position. He deserves every opportunity and will get it now. Up to him, as its up to anyone. Speed...such a vexed parameter often...for mine right up there with 'effective disposal" on the stats sheet. All very murky and needs to be contextual in the light of play. Trenners has footy smarts..you cant teach that...you can try...but either its in a players DNA or not...it IS in Jacks. I look forward to seeing Melbourne evolve and if Trengove is part of it all well and good, if not.,.such is life but Im sure we wont be left guessing Go Dees

Yes I agree, but he is doing a lot of work, I have watched him do it, just bored sometimes with the mob rule bleating from some, if he isn't thought to be good enough to warrant a game by the Footy Dept he won't get one, and we all know the outcome if he doesn't at the end of the season, me I hope he gets a crack at it

A moon boot will do that to you....

I know little of Joel Smith, other than seeing him play in one of the VFL finals, I think it was the Prelim, where he played probably his best game for Casey. He ran through the middle corridor several times, delivering long accurate passes. He showed pace and balance, coupled with good disposal setting up a few goals. He is a nice size and hopefully has some of the marking talent of his dad. I agree with Wiseblood and others on here, that he could be a real smoky for us. What is so different for us today, compared to a few years ago, is that we could probably name a dozen players who are not in our best 22, but who wouldn't be out of place in the team. The other factor that has changed from the Pre Roos days where we probably had 5-6 decent players on the list, is the massive amount of talent on the list and especially in our best 22. We just didn't have the amount of talented players we do now. We are a real chance to play finals and set this club up like the Hawks did and have a sustained period of success. We only need to add to our list here and there, to improve it and keep it strong, after a few leave each year. We should be grateful to PJ, Roos, Taylor, Viney, McCartney and all those who helped get us to this stage.

That tongue is in serious danger ==> https://six6six.smugmug.com/frame/slideshow?key=sczPVd&autoStart=1&captions=0&navigation=0&playButton=0&randomize=0&speed=0&transition=fade&transitionSpeed=1&clickable=1

Just wanted to give a huge shout out to @waynewussell @deeznutz @big_red_fire_engine and @picket fence for their excellent, informative training reports. Thanks guys! Predictably, a civil discussion about player strengths and weaknesses is once again derailed by the usual suspect. Endless grandstanding about "valid" and "invalid" opinions is insufferable, especially on a footy forum.

Another lesson ==> https://www.smugmug.com/frame/slideshow?key=x6jRWJ&autoStart=1&captions=0&navigation=0&playButton=0&randomize=0&speed=1&transition=fade&transitionSpeed=2&clickable=1

With all due respect Saty I do not have you on ignore because some of your training reports are valuable, but I skim past most of your other posts because the continual defence of every player and shouting down posters who differ in opinion about players is also boring. It derails and deadends threads more often than not. Yes, I also see the irony in this post being off topic and expect it'll be deleted. Keep up the training reports. They are good reading.

I think this is possibly the most overused term going around in footy atm. Most of our youngsters who are entrenched in our best 22 will be in their third to fourth years. The dogs won the granny from 7th and had to travel to Perth to beat West Coast, played the reigning premiers in Hawthorn at the G, beat the running machine that is GWS in Sydney and then beat arguably the most hardened and finals-tough side in the Swans to lift the cup. The dogs have an abundance of youth in comparison to sides like Sydney, Hawthorn and even West Coast. Add in the travel and the brutality of finals football and the fact that they won the Grand Final goes completely against the "young players tiring" mantra. Sure young players tire. But with all other variables in motion, it is completely ridiculous to suggest young players tiring is the reason any team loses a game. Anything is possible, the game is completely between the ears and is down to perfect execution of the fundamentals on gameday. Some players do it better than others under extreme fatigue. And that's the way it goes.

Thanks WW and all other posters I felt like I was there, great reporting and feed back is excellent, so much to look forward to. Go Dee's!!!

With Dom T being injured this is where i really hope Trenners grabs his opportunity with both hands. We forget that Jack's first 2 years he was regarded of one the best young player of the comp.

waynewussell, training the house down! Great stuff WW, love your work.

Got to head off soon... Kennedy slots one from the pocket. Last play coming up for me... Jones breaks free from Punt Rd wing, passes to Watts at 45... takes the shot and nails it! Cheers to all... until next time

That's just a little silly, dieter. Nothing we discuss on here changes a thing. It never has and probably never will. But it's a discussion forum none the less and we'll discuss anything and everything. It's the same on any discussion forum on the internet. And I wouldn't give Saty a hard time for being soft on Trengove - it was the way in which he lumped everyone in a s'sheep' who 'bleat the same thing' all the time. That's wrong and dismissive. No one was personal, no one said they didn't want Trengove to make it etc. Just that his speed, pace, whatever you want to call it, may be a hindrance to him getting back into the AFL side on a consistent basis. Some discuss it better than others but it's still a valid discussion. If he plays on a wing/half forward, will his lack of pace be exposed on the rebound, for example? We may be wrong, and I hope I am, but it's still a valid discussion point. We're not being critical or mean, we've just observed that this may be something that could hold him back in the short or long term.

The Master’s Apprentice. Good use of the shoulder. https://www.smugmug.com/frame/slideshow?key=K73hnC&autoStart=1&captions=0&navigation=0&playButton=0&randomize=0&speed=1&transition=fade&transitionSpeed=2&clickable=1 Another lesson ===> https://www.smugmug.com/frame/slideshow?key=x6jRWJ&autoStart=1&captions=0&navigation=0&playButton=0&randomize=0&speed=1&transition=fade&transitionSpeed=2&clickable=1

Many people's work productivity will triple, that much I am certain

Only James Hird probably thought the sun flew too close to him ...

Smith is an old school journo and in the old school it was the standard of professionalism to say "this column believes" or "the author regards". It was seen as amateurish to say "I believe" or "I think". (Nowadays the standards are so low that a tipsy and inarticulate buffoon can livestream his inner voice in half sentences, without any pause for reflection, in print and on radio & TV.) But Smith is also not a particularly warm character and even a vocalised expression of compassion would probably come across as rather stiff and formal. The only credible show of emotion from Smith would be a sledge at a batsman who's been sat on his backside by a nasty bouncer.

"Media give us some peace" family and supporters go into the media and do interviews *silence/agreement* one person reminds everyone of the truth "media scum whyd you say anything youre filth" cant believe it anything for a story Fucjwits everywhere

Spot on, agree with every word. LH, Patrick Smith is the only person in the media who corrected the mistruths or spin which have been put out by, Amendola, Hird Snr, Corcoran, Pickering and Warner. That was the point of his article. He would not have written this article at all were it not for what seems like a concerted effort to re-write events, by these Hird supporters. As for your bolded statement, I would really love to know what more you would have wanted Smith to say regarding his condition and what is the difference that it would make anyway? In my eyes he made the necessary PC statement of concern, what more is needed? I would assume that James Hird will get plenty of support from his family and friends and the best treatment money can buy. There is no need for anyone to express concern that is not genuinely felt. Neither his condition nor his recovery is dependent on a few more sympathetic words any of us might utter.

FMD have a cry Saty. Tissues? Its a discussion forum and il contribute with one word replies if i want to. And if you get 'tiresome' of the same old topic being discuss then maybe you shouldn't be writing on a footy forum where this happens everywhere. You cannot seem to grasp the reality that in a footy forum all issues regarding footy is discussed positive and negative.

Diesel Williams vs Sam Blease anyone? Who would you rather had the ball?

Correct, it seems that as soon as someone asks how he is going at training, nothing else, just how is he going, there is an avalanche of criticism about his speed. Everyone says they wish him well, then they have a go at his lack of speed and some reason why he shouldn't be here. There are plenty of players that have a flaw, but it seems as if the only one that receives any consistent attention is JT. To be fair, no one will know until he plays in a match proper, if he is too slow for the game, so why don't we hold back until then, he's on the list, suck it up and wait and see.

Can't wait to get to a session. I think Roos had done the semi miracle of turning the ship on the paddock (sts) but we still hadn't advanced to really good footy. Maybe not his fault per se, just hadn't got there yet. You can have a competitive car but it needs to be driven and setup right. Whether perennial optimism or elsewise we definitely seem to have the pit crew going gangbusters to get the lads not only firing but going the right way. Some of the drills describe ( to me ) fundamental footy acumen, things we've lacked in practice ( ie abilty to execute on the day ) and this has brought us undone before. With some imported stewardship and skilled grunt i think the newer evolved game plan ( or package of pudposes ) will finally deliver dividends. Can't wait for first game. Thanks to many for the reports/updates. Go Dees

Unless he is already close enough to reachout and tackle the the player corraling is probably the best option. Nothing to do with a lack of physicality. I'd rather see him corral a player and hold the ball up and force a difficult kick/handball over the top than have him rush a player and be stepped around... thats what most ball carriers want. If our zone is properly set up then the next player down the line should have the opportunity to attempt to force a turnover through intercept, spoil or tackle.

This is a classic case of people looking at the negatives and ignoring the positives. On top of this Jetta is a classic back pocket, we don't need him to play on a flank. It's like when Jurrah was kicking almost three goals a game yet people were worried he wasn't laying enough tackles.

Alchemy ... Turning base metals into Gold AlFLemy ... Turning anything of value into mould

Well when a winner is found to have drug cheated and then "returns it" but actually keeps it and the governing body doesnt care id say it has no value

Submitted in comments to The Australia after Smith's article, though not sure if they will censor it out. Patrick. One factual error, as I understand. You say "Hird, by his lack of watchful eye, forced Jobe Watson, the son of former champion Tim Watson, to hand back his 2012 Brownlow Medal.". By all accounts, Jobe may have relinquished the title, but surprisingly for such a prestigious ornament, reports have it that he claims he does not know where it is, so technically he has not "handed it back", suggesting dare I say some sort of secret back room deal by the AFL to not push the issue. A symbolic handing back only. Now I realize the suggestion that the AFL would ever indulge in any type whatsoever of back room deals must come as a total shock to anyone following AFL, but that, to me, is at least the appearance. AND Sorry, but AFL ASADA and WADA rules, signed off by the AFL and by those joining the prestigious ranks of AFL players, stipulate personal responsibility for all ingested or injected substances. Further the players (allegedly) signed in their ASADA declarations that they had not been injected with any unspecied substances. Nürenberg dispelled the defense "I was only obeying orders". The players were responsible, and signed false declarations. The club, and the "medical staff" by not keeping accurate records of what was given, when, and how much, violated all moral principles governing human experimentation as decreed in the Helsinki Declaration on a Human Experimentation. Worth a full read - easily found in full via Google .

Latest Macca update: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-01-16/list-update-petracca-salem-and-smith Christian Salem "He’s been terrific this summer. Christian arrived back from his post-season break very fit. You just see him at training at times and his pure class comes out. All Melbourne people have seen enough snippets of Christian at his best to know that we’ve got a special young player on our hands". He will be the Dees' surprise packet this year! Long thought he is up there with Watts on footy IQ and pure skill. We have players with other special talents but few with silky skills. Christian has them.

Nothing less SWYL....

Arrived on time. Only ANB, Filipovic & Hanban in rehab group with Crossy... maybe Mitch King had graduated! Beautiful morning in Melbourne, going to be 31 today (cheers Ron Barassi!). Main group just arriving.

Gambling's for fools. Keep your money in your pocket.

Agree. But I'd like to add Nathan Jones, too. He has played with distinction through the bad times and never dropped his head.

I was there for the full 3 hours as well. I found today's session more taxing than the one a week ago and a higher intensity. Then add the warmer day and what appeared a higher expectation from the assistant coaches and it was definitely on another level. Fast movement of the ball, get back quick, take first option and hard spread both ways were the clear focus. Standouts for me today were Hunt, Melksham and Wagner, who all worked at consistently high intensity and won and executed with the ball clinically. Tim Smith also stood out with some strong forward play and clinical goal kicking in the full ground drill. Just to add to the earlier comment on Trac, he really struggles to stay switched on during the full session particularly when he doesn't have the ball. Additionally he continues to try and do more than he needs to and was critiqued numerous times for not taking the simple option. Reading Macca's player updates on the MFC site it is going to be an interesting balancing act getting his team play versus flair right this year. Also overheard twice that the intra club practice match will be Friday Feb 10 at Olympic Park Oval (no time mentioned but suspect similar to training).

Jesus I love Macca.

Dion j?