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Interesting that everyone has focused on the blindingly obvious with Oxley taking uncontested marks in our forward 50, but no one has really focused on the Dees great work around the stoppages, which was partly due to our structures/set up (and partly due to the intensity displayed by Vince, Jones and Viney). Buckley said on AFL 360 that they were getting smashed in this area (a first for them this year) and they effectively had to change their game plan to something that didn't wish to play. Buckley was very complimentary of the Dees coaching in terms of our midfield set up and thought the use of the wingers at the stoppages was quite unique and effective. Silly mistakes, poor ball use and costly turnovers cost us this game.

I watched the replay again last night. It staggers me to this day, what a difference I get in my perception of how the team and individuals played watching it live on tv versus watching a replay. I'm guilty of getting extremely emotional watching the game live and it clouds my judgement. Here are some observations on the points that have been discussed a bit on this thread. Watts - The dropped mark was a terrible mistake, no two ways about it, keep your feet! However, Jack battled back really well when he could have easily gone into his shell after that stuff up. Seeing him taking on tacklers was heart in mouth stuff and he really surprised me with some of his efforts. The clutch goal after the dropping the ball decision was hopefully a turning point in his season. Lamumba - I was quite critical of him watching the game live, but on 2nd viewing, he wasn't really that bad, besides his first possession where he played on and ran straight into trouble and letting Elliot play on and goal. Still waiting for him to have a breakout game in Dees colours though. TMac & Dunn - both had pretty ordinary, error riddled games. Dunn not quite so bad. Lets hope Tommy uses the toweling up he got from Cloke as motivation to really lift for the rest of the year. Just wanted to note a few times I think we broke down in our defense because of Fitzy's bad awareness and positioning. The Jamie Elliot mark in the goal square was a good example of this. TMac left Elliot to go to White because it was obvious that Fitzy had completely lost body contact and wasn't even in the contest, and that high ball in was more likely to going to be taken by the tall forward White. Tommy was unlucky that the ball flukily drifted over the top of the pack. There were a couple of other examples of this that I can't remember right now. Fitzy - Was ok but also made some absolute howlers. I called for him to be dropped but on 2nd viewing I'm not so sure. Lets see if he can bounce back (pending matchups with StK). Newton - I don't think he's as weak as people here are alluding to, he sticks his tackles most times. His problems are his one-pace, limited awareness (resulting in him getting caught in possession often) and I definitely agree that his tank isn't quite up to scratch. Gawn - Promising game, made some clangers like the attempted goal line mark and the cough up kick off half back but I liked what he brought more than Spencer or Jamar this season. Jetta - Looked a bit lost early but did some good things as well. Hogan - Was completely outplayed by Jack Frost (who I think will be one of the best AFL defenders in a few years). I hope this game is Hogan's low point for the season and he bounces back all guns blazing next week. Dropped heaps of marks he should have clunked and didn't split enough packs. M Jones - I was highly critical straight after the game, but realise now that I was unfair. He actually didn't do that badly, there was one incident late in the game where he went to ground too easily in a contest near the boundary and collingwood ran it away, but mostly he was okay, just didn't provide enough line-breaking run that he's shown to be capable of in the past. As the sub I was expecting more of that. I'd like to see some other blokes given a run ahead of Jones. The bloke's contracted for next season, so in a way we're stuck with him and we know what he offers. I'd much rather have Grimes in than M Jones or I'd like to see Harmes or ANB given a run in the seniors to see what they're capable of. Pedersen - Not too bad a game, a shame he didn't score that goal in the last 1/4. Howe - pretty decent game but could have made much more of an impact if he'd held some more marks that went his way. The missed set shot in the last was a real deflator. This guy should be kicking multiples every game with his marking and kicking ability. Now let's see him do it! Viney - Some excellent stuff but some very ordinary play as well. i hope he's just blowing out some of the cobwebs from his injury lay off. Wasn't very clean and fumbled it a lot. Riley - I like his aggression and he seemed to be tagging Pendlebury for a fair bit (is that right?). Didn't do too badly, I'd leave him in for now and demand at least 6 tackles a game, perhaps play him as the sub again, he did that role pretty well against the Dogs. Vince, N Jones, Cross, Brayshaw, Garlett were all terrific Vanders - gonna miss him while he's out. Hope he's back soon. Edit: forgot Toumpas - I'm a pretty big critic, but I thought he did play ok. The handball to Gawn that everyone's crticising was actually the right play to make. Watch it again, he's surrounded by three Magpies and the handball was delivered perfectly to Gawn who was at least 20 m in the clear with two unmanned targets to kick to. Toumpas absolutely did the right thing. As for the rest of his game, he was pretty efficient with his disposal by foot, missed a few handballs but he's definitely beginning to cement a spot in the team. Wish he'd provide just a little more attacking flair to his game and hit the scoreboard, his footskills do appear to be his strength. Looking forward to seeing Tyson back in and would love to see a surprise inclusion as well (e.g. ANB, Harmes or Stretch in for M. Jones or B. Newton)

Cross will go around again. He's having a brilliant season for a player of his age.

Won the clearances. 47 Inside 50s. 220+ Uncontested Possessions. Kicked 6 goals in about 15 mins from the end of the first to half way through the second. Beating a goods midfield in clearances, getting near parity on I50s, getting league average UPs, and kicking goals in a hurry. That would not have occurred in one game against a good team for half a decade.

I think Spencer and Gawn are neck and neck but have different strengths. I'm hoping Gawn steps up this week to make it a more clear decision though. On another note, I'm hoping we see Watts go 3rd man up more often, has worked really well when he has done so.

It was one of the few times we have won the midfield against a quality opposition. That shows how important it is because we 'should have' won the game (ie: if we reduce our mistakes and didn't gift them at least 5 goals) We had a real crack. Tackling was hard and smart (no Matt Jones tumbling into someone's back etc) Some incredibly dumb mistakes. The wrong free against TMac for OOF was a terrible blow when we had kicked 5 in a row. A few brain fades that should reduce with time playing at this kind of level. V poor effort from the coaching box. Starting to get a little concerned about the consultant on game day and certainly don't like the deflection about the loose man set up. We have let this happen all year and its a momentum killer. We aren't good enough or smart enough yet to pick our way through a crowded fwd line. Many of our goals were fast break type goals when we had space. Same for the Pies. Having the ball come back immediately and shoot up the other end is pretty demoralizing after you have been piling the pressure on. Probably the best game I have seen Gawn play (which isn't much) and it was obvious how much grunt Viney adds to our midfield set up. And I just love Gus. Every time he made a mistake or got beaten he involved himself in the next play and atoned. That is a great sign of a competitor. And Bernie, Cross and NJones were simply immense. Absolute warriors.

This. He's not diminishing at all, as in the way Fletcher and Harvey aren't. Absolutely no reason he won't play next year, and he is a huge exemplar to the young midfielders, which they frequently mention.

Watch the AFL360 video up on the melbourne website: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2015-06-09/afl-360-monday-june-8 Around the 13:13 minute mark nathan buckly says this: "Melbourne have been bottom 2 in the score from stoppage differential and you probably lead the round in the end. I reckon you were +30 or something from stoppages today, so there's a difference and all of the evidence of the first 9 rounds has been flipped on its head". Evidence=Spencer and Jamar can't ruck. Gawn can, if his body holds up, his fitness will improve . I am very happy with Max as No.1 ruck this year and for the next 6.

Martin. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

Watching the replay and the game I am sure that Jeff Garlett's second goal was absolutely brilliant. The commentators said that he fell over. I don't think he did, I think he deliberately propped to elude the guy on his hammer. What do others think?

From the looks of your posts since the game, your view appears to be if we'd simply put Cross on Oxley and Toumpas hadn't have handpassed to Gawn that one time, we'd have won. You've blown the Toumpas thing completely and horrendously disproportionately out of the water (especially given the gravity of some of the other mistakes made by senior players) whilst the Oxley thing was important, but not as decisive as the skill errors. On what basis do you think St Kilda has had a better season so far than us? They've beaten GC, WB and Brisbane. We've beaten GC (same), WB (same) and Richmond (better than Brisbane). Their percentage is 6.1% better than ours. That may be because we've played Fremantle, Sydney and Port Adelaide whilst they've played Essendon, Carlton and West Coast in the only three different games so far. In fact, I'm confident if the fixture and percentages were the other way around you'd be saying words to the effect of 'given who we've played, the fact we're only 6.1% in front of St Kilda shows how bad we are'. We've won 16 quarters to their 12 (which includes 6 first quarters to their 3, first quarters at the very least being quarters where the game isn't over yet). If anything, we are tracking evenly, but if there's an argument to be made about one being better than the other, it's in our favour, not theirs.

Guys, ANB won't play - Roos said as much in his presser, and I was pleased to hear it. Seems our supporters have this obsession with promoting new draftees as soon as they have a game where they've had 30 touches - have we not heeded the lessons of years past?! Let him develop for a while and continue to build consistent form at Casey so that he's well and truly ready later in the year.

Calm down. It is relevant, given the amount of rubbish Toumpas has copped on Demonland. Won't make them see it any more, but it might get them to pipe down for a little while.

Based on the latest news re: Garlands broken hand In - Tyson, ANB, Grimes Out - Vandenberg (inj), Garland (inj). M Jones B - N.Jetta - T.McDonald - J.Fitzpatrick HB - H.Lumumba - L.Dunn - J.Grimes C - B.Vince - D.Tyson - A.Brayshaw HF - J.Watts - C.Pedersen - D.Cross F - J.Garlett - J.Hogan - J.Howe R - M.Gawn - N.Jones - J.Viney Bench - J.Toumpas - A.Riley - B.Newton Sub - ANB

First time we had this combo on the ground this season Shame Vanders is now injured.

Gawn absolutely has the skill set to be a top ruckman - can mark - can tap - not too bad below his knees - in the main makes good decisions The main issue to date is he has shown in fits and bursts and he still doesn't look like he has a tank. Shout me down but the general rule is that ruckman don't come into their own until 23ish and Gawn is just hitting that age now where he should be stepping up ( yes - the are exceptions to this)

Roos strategy was to keep Cross as our extra back. Crikey, he had to Cloke was tearing us apart! Then our mids and forwards had to work hard to get fwd, man up on Oxley and 'bring the ball to ground'. One might ask why wasn't Cross as effective as Oxley? Answer: Pies mids and fwds worked harder to get fwd, man up on Cross and 'bring the ball to ground'. Sound familiar. They did what our players didn't. They were also smarter on how they moved the ball fwd to nullify Cross. It wasn't poor coaching. Roos strategy was sound. The players didn't execute it. They didn't work hard enough. The 'players didn't listen comment' was possible the kindest thing he could say in public. Everyone learnt some lessons.

To the people saying drop Toumpas, yes he made a few poor decisions, but overall he actually had a decent game. He had 21 disposals, 8 contested, 80% efficiency, 5 score involvements, 4 clearances, 3 rebound 50s and 4 tackles. They're decent stats, and he was far from our worst today. We need to let him gain more confidence and build on these games. He's already showing a bit this year. Dropping him would be yet another poor selection decision. I'm sick of him being a scape goat on this site.

Obvious choice is obvious, but see the bolded, enlarged name for the medias other choice. Everyone can see it except for our own supporters blinded by what draft pick he came in at. The kid is improving. In other news, Dean Kent would be in this list too if he hadn't done his hammy. Such is life. Tom McDonald: Already a quality player he would be close to the leading the club's best and fairest. Outstanding in the key defensive post he has stood tall since James Frawley departed, progressing from being merely a stopper to becoming a legitimate springboard out of defence. His early season form was outstanding and he was one of the few Demons who maintained good form against the competition's best teams. He is in the top five for rebound 50s with Essendon's Cale Hooker the only tall defender near him on that statistic. An honest competitor, the 22-year-old looks set to be a quality defender for many years. McDonald's best game in 2015: R6 v Sydney Swans. Kept 'Buddy' Franklin goalless for just the 16th time in the Swans' forward's storied career. McDonald relished the battle and made Franklin work at all times. Others who’ve stepped up: Christian Salem, Jimmy Toumpas - Peter Ryan

Mate, he is the new ENYAW now that ENYAW become slightly sane with his posts and turned into WAYNE

Yeah thats true, would start ANB actually and have psycho Pig Dog come in as sub to smash some Saint skulls

Misson: Surprise from the game: Garland broke his hand in first qtr an dplayed whole game with broken hand. Had surgery yesterday Huge effort. Team player extraordinaire!!

Pc police alert!

Watts is easier. Soft, blah! Blah! Shits himself, yada! Yada! Number one pick, omg, omg! See?

The (hilariously...) funny thing is - as the French(?) poster above alludes - we win that game if we don't make some of the most laughable mistakes with and without the footy, from seasoned AFL players who should know better (and a couple that wouldn't know better...). But to lump it most of that at the feet of a(nother) scapegoat in Toumpas is unfair. The hardest part of footy is getting it - he is starting to come out of his shell and I like his instincts to spread - we need that.

I have no problem with how he plays - he breaks our mould, he relieves our inertia. If you have ever played a game of bball with guys who will never drive and just pass around to each other - you put up a terrible 3 and have no chance. HL drives, he 'does something' in a team that struggles to do anything at times. Sometimes he screws up and it is all on him, sometimes he screws up but it is because another player didn't push to get there because he isn't used to a player even trying to get it to him there. I think we can all agree that HL demands more from those up the ground and I am ok with that...

Roos presser (just finished) mentioned that Vanders has a slight hammy strain, that Tyson should be in and that Dawes is likely to come back via Casey. No mention of any further injury to Salem.

Well, that does it... if he had a go at Whitlam, then there's no way I would want him having anything to do with our club!!

god help me we already have a highly paid coach, coaching staff and admin. we must have very high overheads without paying for another millionaire to join our ranks. we have absolutely no reason to go after judd. i would rather we got junior or one of our many ex-players at hawthorn.

H took the game on. I liked it I wish that we had about 10 more players with the same attitude.

will it be halal?

Judd has committed to life after footy starting up a company specialising in chicken wings .

But not as terrible as the vicious act of eye gouging, for which he has been found guilty twice.He also stomped on a Melbourne recruit's(Nick Walsh, who didn't make the firsts) stomach, and deliberately twisted his stops. These things must not be forgotten during all the panegyrics. Great player,but far from an ornament to the game.

Gawn has played one game... Best of a bad lot really.

Was a cork, which was why they let him play the rest of the game. There is no way if there was even a slight suspicion of fracture they would have kept him playing.

Didn't Fitzy play most of the game in White? Thought he demolished White.

I give credit to the Collingwood defenders. They were always able to keep our forwards from getting in to compete with Oxley. I was wondering why not add Fitzpatrick to the mix down there. Especially when it was obvious the forward set up wasn't working. He would have been tough to match up on.

No it isn't that simple. When we didn't have a loose in defence Cloke kicked 4 goals, When we did have a loose in defence we played attacking proactive football in the 2nd Q Not everything is as simple as it seems

Roos had a bad day in the box on Monday, he made two errors. First one was starting McDonald on Cloke - he just doesn't have the body strength. I was asking myself why that was the match up as soon as the game started, with Dunn being the obvious option. McDonald is our best key defender, but it doesn't mean he's best suited to playing on the oppositions best key forward. The second was not manning up Oxley as everyone has noted. Even if the players were meant to man him up, physically shift one of them down there. They were pretty short in the forward line. Move Fitzy forward, make Oxley man him up and give ourselves a height advantage. He changed the momentum of the game twice, I can understand if the players didn't listen once, but there was plenty of time to make it happen and that's on the coach. But overall, I don't things are too bad. We've played 10 games. That includes 8 of the top 9 sides currently on the ladder, with West Coast the only team from the top half we haven't played, and Richmond the one team we've beaten in the 8. We've also beaten the Bulldogs and Gold Coast. Five of our next six games come against teams in the bottom half of the ladder. We should win four of those games if we're on our game, St. Kilda, Brisbane, Essendon and St. Kilda again. We might even sneak a win against Geelong or the Eagles at home. That should put us 7-9 or even 8-8 and we'll see how far we've come. It gets harder again at the back end - we could only win 1 or two more after that. We're doing better than we thought - we've had the toughest run of all the clubs so far this season. But the next 6 weeks will really be telling for how our season looks overall.

I'm bipolar and I think the comment is very humorous. Loosen up gang.

Rubbish. Both are developing well. Fitzgerald stitched up white - have you not heard the pies supporters complaining about white. This on top of his nullification of Boyd suggests he's playing an important role even if not spectacular, Re the toumpas, two of three games with 20 plus possession. One of our elite kickers, excellent mark, very quick hands. His few blunders merely a little slower to adjust to speed of game than some. But one of our good youngsters on his way to an excellent future.

Among the many reasons why we shouldn't permit drugs in sport is this most compelling one ... If drugs are permitted, then hopeful kids know that they will eventually have to take drugs to have any chance of making it. That will be the norm. And then the drugs arms race, previously confined to elite levels, will move down the food chain to where teens or even younger, will be "pushing the envelope" to get that edge over their peers. It's bad enough that the Essendon 34 took Christ knows what, fed to them by a bunch of shonky operators with little sense of ethics, but who wants to see kids in that situation? Taking unknown substances with unknown health risks because there's no other way to make it to the top. Disgraceful.

I have said before we will be a better side in the back half of the year and I still believe that.

Which players would make us better? Chris Dawes - POSSIBLY Sam Frost - POSSIBLY Jay Kennedy-Harris - NOT AT THIS STAGE Dean Kent - YES Christian Petracca - ONE WOULD ASSUME YES Christian Salem - YES Jack Trengove - HOPEFULLY, POSSIBLY, BUT WHO KNOWS IF HE EVEN CAN RETURN Aaron vandenBerg - YES I doubt many agree with me re JKH, but I feel he still has a lot to learn and improvement to make before he is in our current best 22.

I see a player who has improved this year, and is gradually building his confidence and awareness. I also see a player who will be a fantastic user by foot once his confidence is built, and once the rest of the team realizes they have to actually run when they don't have the ball.

Just finished watching the replay and few notes: ANB was excellent in close. He made a lot of very good decisions and his close movement means he often finds a bit more space than he should. He executes really well. He reminds me of Lachie Neale a bit. Tyson was the probably BOG. His class was evident and he just found ways to create space. You can tell he's used to a higher level as he had so much time. He was so, so clean with the footy. I though Harmes was excellent. Probably the best game I've seen from him. He has great attributes (pace, strong overhead, reasonably good skills) but he really found a way to get involved in the game. He appeared to work hard defensively too, which is promising. He is a player that will do a few things a game that make you go "Woah, that's impressive", but this game he managed to get himself more involved and actually impact the result. Really good signs. I'm impressed by White. He is a player who you don't feel should impress, especially with his weird running style, but he does a lot of things really well. He kicks it beautifully, is very strong overhead and is, surprisingly, a really sound defensive player. I don't know how, but he's always on the hammer of his opponent and spoils well with the body. I think I need to have a good look at him live, because there's something happening with him, but I don't know what it is. I think I'm confused about his pace, because he doesn't look like he should be quick, but I'd love to see whether that's right or not. McDonald moves like his brother, but needs a lot more bulk. But there's a lot to like.

Vandenberg?? What part of the 13 disposals at half time was quite?