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Since we don't have any elite players perhaps we could recruit some more Non-elites like Sandilands, Judd, Jon Brown, Matt Priddis, Jordan Lewis, Nic Nat, to the club....? Rance, Shaw and Monfries...please....

Make enough crazy statements and sooner or later one will come to fruition.

The way some people are talking about Cross's kicking is absolutely ridiculous. The man was an absolute champion of a team that was pushing for a Grand Final spot and will bring nothing but leadership and 110% effort to our rabble of a club. Kicking may not be his strong point, but he by no means is completely bereft of the skill. To liken it to "Spencer in his first 1-2 years of league footy" is absolutely moronic and of the up most disrespect to a player (Cross) who is held in high regard and respect by virtually everyone in the game.

I'd like to try again to take personalities out of this debate and not make this a blame apportionment exercise but rather to look at cause and effect over time to see if we can understand why our decline was so rapid and then so long-lasting.To a significant extent, it's true that the team that we saw on that night in September was coming to the end of a cycle with Neitz, White, Robertson and Yze perilously close to the end, others a lot closer to being finished than would have been anticipated and a few more about to suffer injuries that affected their careers at the club. My point is that others have been in that place but prepared their clubs better for the inevitable (Roos and his FD at the Swans being a case in point). In particular, it's important to plan for the succession in leadership and for the loss of key players (after all, they didn't exactly become veterans overnight). In our case, we knew those four main players mentioned above were on the way out but what was done to replace them? Our recruiting and list management were abysmal in the years leading up to 2006/7. We actually had a premiership ruckman in our grasp and let him go for a late first round draft pick, then took 3 players all 192cm in that draft. In the three years 2005-7 we traded only one player into the club, Byron Pickett who, whilst briefly effective, was already 28 years of age and finished after a year. These were the years when we should have been developing players for our midfield and forward lines as well as developing leaders and a strong culture. The fact is that we didn't (and that itself was due to many factors including the club's financial position), and in my view, that can't be written off as purely due to the end of a cycle. This does not mean that the coaches who followed get a free pass. Both of them failed badly but my point is that clubs need to be on top of planning not only for the short term but for the longer journey as well and in that respect while you might consider it to have been "fair to try to extract one more good year out of that group", I think that the reality was that the horse had already bolted.

Stopped reading at Michael Hibberd. This isn't a list of elite footballers, it is a list of elite super coach options.

McQueen, I think the reason he is undervalued by so many Melbourne supporters is 'guilt by association'. As one of the group of 'ready made' players brought to the club under Neeld's direction, he is assumed to be a failure on account of that group (Pederson, Rodan, Byrnes.....) being perceived to have failed (not unfairly probably). Oddly enough also, the fact that he was very visible by playing 22 games and getting a fair bit of it, unconsciously strengthens the idea that he is symptomatic of the problem. The more objective reality, considering where he came from and the team he came to, is that he was simply an outstanding story. And that story has some way to travel I reckon. When you compare the positive sentiment that was directed to James Magner in and after his first year, the lack of respect for Matt Jones in a similar situation is just very odd.

Hoping with some help that we have Grimes and Nathan Jones in this list of "statistically elite" players at the end of this year. I can see Grimes averaging 25 touches from half back and Jones the same in the middle and doing more with them this year. I expect Viney and Hogan to join them in time. Plus I'm pretty excited about Dom Tyson. Can't write off Trengove, Toumpas or Watts either. Frawley is an elite stopping defender but probably doesn't get enough footy to make this list and Clark is a unique talent. That would make 10 elite players.

Agree with much of your post, Jack, and a lot of what you said comes down to my first reason as to why we have been so bad in the last seven years - recruiting. I think though that is has more to do with poor recruiting over a period of time than decisions made around the 2006/2007 period when we were coming to the end of the Daniher days. Yes there were mistakes but I don't think they were as significant as the recruiting failures, particularly around the 2000-2004 period (players who would have been 22-26 years old at the start of the 2008 season. Obviously my post was just a summary, but if we have a closer look at that drafting period, we selected Scott Thompson as a first rounder in 2000 (star player but left us), then picked up Molan, Armstrong and Rogers with earlyish picks in 2001, Daniel Bell and Nick Smith as first rounders in 2002, McLean and Sylvia as top 5 picks in 2003 and Bate and Dunn as first rounders in 2004. Other than Sylvia (who really only showed glimpses of his talent to be honest) the others have not even come close to producing what would have been expected from early draft picks. This terrible recruiting period left us with an enormous hole in our list at the start of the Bailey era in 2008. I think that this, more so than decisions made towards the end of the Daniher era, was the main contributing factor to our initial rapid decline. As to my second reason, being what happened in 2011, that is obviously a factor relevant to the 'double dip' bottoming out that we experienced in 2012 and 2013 (as were further recruiting blunders in the post-Daniher era). It is very unusual for a club to bottom out, start to rise and then completely bottom out again all within the space of 5 years. I don't think recruiting alone explains why we have regressed so far from where we were at the end of the 2010 season to 2013. To me the infighting of 2011, the shambolic handling of the fallout from 186, the hiring of Neeld and some of his decisions also helped contribute to this second bottoming out. The good news is I think we are better placed to get off rock bottom this time around.

You make some really outlandish predictions.

This is a terrible blow to the prospects of our club. Can I get my membership money back?

Alex rance .....please!!!!! How he can be ranked above frawley is an absolute joke

I am not complaining about their using the idea. If i were, i wouldn't have offered them in the first place. I would have thought though it was common practice to acknowledge receipt of such documents. In my day of running marketing department in large corporates, that would have been regarded as totally unacceptable. You get ideas from wherever you can. You track them because there maybe some more coming from the same direction. It is simply good practice. I say this more than anything else as yet another example of a lack of professionalism in the last administration. It was not only Neeld, although he certainly didn't help.

Matt Jones averaged amost 20 disposals a match, 4 marks and 2.7 tackles a game. He was top 5 in the bluey. It was his first year. There is no reason why he can't get better next year I ha ve no idea why people are so surprised he got a contract extension

Good to see he's a professional. On a scale of 1 to Robert Harvey I rate it at 'affirming nod'. Not exciting, just pleasant. I also must give an affirming nod to "Most people don't think Buddy did his hammy" as being one the finest pieces of diplomatic language I've seen in a while. Well done Moonshadow.

Given he could have been big noting himself at the portsea polo today with the likes of dane swan Dustin Martin and Harry kewell...

Did AFL miss out on an opportunity, or are the demographics of Western Sydney of people, families with soccer "in their blood" who will naturally go to soccer (and throw flares)? In other words, has Dumbitriou in his bid to "leave a legacy" to match his megalomania actually stuffed up not the Western Sydney experience but rather stuffed up the (lower echelons of) AFL?

Now it's time for a beer.

How committed do you really have to be to not go out and get [censored] on a Saturday night? People have been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years.

No offence tingles but this is hardly inspiring. I've just knocked off from a 14 hour day and I'm going to the gym too. Am I committed? No I'm bloody stupid because I should be going to blow the froth off a couple. But anyway.. "Yay Mitch!"

I guess the term 'wild card' can be deceptive. Some years teams scrape into the playoffs with 8 or 9 wins as a wildcard, like the Packers this year (Albeit aided by a now fit again HOF QB). SF won 12 games and had the 5th best overall W-L record in the league this year. We just happen to be in the same conference as the team with the best record. Tellingly, SF's 4 losses this year though were all against teams still in the race (Indy,Seattle, New Orleans and Carolina). I remember watching the Saints on the road at Seattle a month or so ago with a mate on TV, and after 5 minutes you could tell that Brees & co were going to get walloped, they just couldnt handle the crowd in Seattle. Kapaernick struggled with audibles there earlier in the year also, yet on the return trip to SF without that noise we were clearly the better team so their home ground advantage this week is profound. The game that intrigues me most this week is Indy@New England. I have seen them play some amazing games this year, yet there have been others where Luck and his receivers just havent clicked. I dont think the Pats have played all that well this year, obviously being affected by the loss of Welker and Gronks injury woes, Bradys 2 traditional favorite targets. Yet the query is if they finally hit their best for how good could they be? Maybe we always have unrealistically high expectations of Brady led teams these days. If you took away the scoreboard last week, and looked at raw yardage/first down etc stats, you'd have thought the Bengals would've come away with a win. San Diego are clearly the weakest team left in it, but a nothing to lose attitude suits Rivers, hes a decent QB who flys under the radar a bit. Still, Denver like New England have the potential to devastate teams on offense. Can Peyton get another ring to cap off a record breaking year?

It's also way off the mark. Cross' disposal isn't up to the standard of say, Jimmy Toumpas but it's reasonably effective and I think he will challenge Jordie McKenzie for his role as a stopper because he's just as good in that role and he's an infinitely better kick.

What's the CEO doing getting involved in football matters anyway?

A bit of research shows that there isn't the huge disparity many think. Barlow burst on the AFL scene in 2010 with an average of 27 touches per game, 16 of those were handballs. Jones first season isn't close to Barlow's but to write him off now as someone who could never get to that standard is unfair and underserved of the mocking Theox gave it. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=9&pid1=3389&tid2=12&pid2=3845&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2010&fid2=S

Excellent Bob although I'm sure that Gutnick would argue that he was aware that we were about to be investigated for salary cap breaches and self-disclosure saved us from an even greater penalty. However, if it's possible for there to be some connection between the events of 1999 and what happened to us in 2007 and beyond (and I agree that there is) then even more so, it's possible that there is a nexus between recruiting and list management issues of the mid 2000's and what happened later in the decade and in the years that ensued. It's mostly a matter of your viewpoint and how much weight you want to put on things. Most of these things are up for debate and I'm sure good clubs will analyse their past and come up with solutions to improve their performance. The good thing is that I believe that this is what happened with Roos at the Swans and the succession of power after he left gave that club the opportunity to win the 2012 flag under Longmire. If he can do the same with us, I'll be happy.

How is it flawed? They use more than 100 different stats, not just cumulative kicks, marks, handballs but also efficiency stats. Look at the list in the OP and tell me how many you could truly say are "wrong"? It is an indicator as I said but it's a pretty true indicator and the best indicator we have so far to measure players. If you can come up with some better analysis be my guest but at this stage forgive me if I prefer the informed analysis of CD over the "yeah, but nah" speculation of the supporters in the outer. Again I reiterate, they are not saying these players are "elite" in the manner the every day supporter thinks of it (Ablett, Carey, Voss etc) - they are merely saying based on their measurements and analysis of the 2013 season these players are in the top 10 for their position which they refer to as "elite". They're not saying Andrew Walker and Kade Simpson are amongst the top 10 players of all time.

What internet browser do you use? http://safariaddons.com/en-US/safari/addon/130 should work for Safari https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/download-youtube/ should work for Firefox http://www.chromeextensions.org/music-videos-photos/youtube-downloader/#.Us_fUceqphE should work for Google Chrome.

If the Colts win this week, I will punt my TV through the window.

No, they're on our list because we can't physically sack 25 at once. Or else they would have.

Na but he had bung hands and feet .. wouldn't be able to mark the ball or kick goals

You are welcome. Happy to have a winner and share it.He should improve with the run, will get further and will probably get blinkers next start.

Not as sick as I am watching them.

On another note it was good to see Billy Stretch at training having a kick with Toumpas. Then went inside with Viney, made me feel old seeing Viney & Stretch together.

You know times are tough when people are arguing over who out of Godfrey and Nicholson are better kicks.

I am hoping so will Tyson, Toumpas, Viney and Hogan.

Found footage from Nov 2012 Bulldogs time trial Princess Park Cross won easily with Boyd second then Gia.

I'm getting a bit sick of the constant criticism of Nicholson and Bail's kicking. Firstly, while neither are great kicks, I don't think either are as bad as they are sometimes stated to be and secondly, by keeping themselves super-fit the coaching staff can spend more time working with them on their kicking and less getting them to the fitness level required.

It is frustrating that the top three runners are probably the worst three kicks.

3 km Time Trial results 1st Daniel Nicholson 2nd Tom McDonald 3rd Rohan Bail 4th Daniel Cross

People don't get banned here or have their posts deleted because they have unpopular views. They can and do for making what are considered racist and offensive comments and/or telling blatant lies. Check our code of conduct.You did omit to mention among the people you attacked was Jim Stynes and whilst it might be fair comment to be critical of some things he might have done at the club, personal abuse of people dead or alive around here is unacceptable. I suggest you take mjt's advice and head off elsewhere where you can abuse anyone you like over here and you can s***can Demonland policy as much as you like but you'll soon find that they not only have moderators but discerning posters who will soon tire of your toxic behaviour too.

Let me guess. The game was over in such quick time he never got near to taking a catch. And it's a good omen with Melbourne giving Adelaide a royal flogging.

That's not quite true. According to our records, poster Thomo was banned from the site "for his nastiness and insensitivity" on a thread about Liam Jurrah back in 2012.If that's you, the decision to remove you was made after several instances of obnoxious behaviour. In short, you were and are, a serial pest and our moderating team were all happy to see the back of you. Cheerio.

Even if he's only our 30th best player on the list you still need depth especially running through the middle.

Time trials mean plenty. A great performance doesn't mean you can play but a poor performance more or less means you season is cooked in a game style requiring two way gut running with a cap on interchange. The most important thing is to see improvement from the start of pre-season or the previous year.

The guy finished top 5 in a B&F in his first year (granted performances around him weren't great). Whilst his B&F position may not be as high in 2014 I doubt you will see lesser output from him and his position in the team will only be lost because others go past him not because he goes backwards. I doubt this would have cost us much and is a fair risk investment. I saw enough of Kent to see he was worth backing in a further two and again it wont have cost us much.

Time trials mean nothing Daniel Nicholson always comes in the top 2 or 3 and he is the worst player at the club

The people here are idiots. Thought you would have learnt that by now.

Blease in a boil over.

How's that?

Love how we pick this guy out of almost complete obscurity, and all of a sudden we're all experts on him.

I hope he is bigger than 187cm, thats a small defender not KPD. Norwood has been good to us