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Thank you for waving the white flag, we know your view, you are also not alone in that view. I understand why you and others feel like that. I feel sick about our plight, but I won't quit and I expect my club not to either.I would prefer to dig in for the fight and a tough one it will be. Every year there is a club at the bottom of the ladder, that is pathetic and is an easybeat. The last couple of years that is us. I am ignoring GWS because they clearly will rise with more games experience. Our task is huge, but not impossible. I have invested 55 years in this club and I am not prepared to have it be for nothing. We have a good CEO. I believe we are about to appoint a good Footy Manager at season's end. I hope we appoint a good Coach. We have a new recruiting Manager about to have his first go for us at this year's draft. We are now looking strongly at development of players, rather than simply drafting them. We have a major ally in the AFL. In the short term they can help with finance, sponsorship and draft assistance. We need to be ruthless with our list. We hopefully have Clark back next year and a fit Dawes. Jesse will also play. We need to draft well and will have the chance to get a couple of the best young mids. We MIGHT be able to trade in a couple of experienced mids. If we put a top pick up or someone like Watts we might be able to get some more experienced mids in. If we cherrypick like the Tigers did for needs, there are players out there not getting a run at their clubs, who may add experience and hardness. I am not saying we get these guys necessarily, but players like Bell, Laidler and Duigan at Carlton are not being played and will leave and are hungry. Sewell may be on the outer at Hawthorn, especially as Cooney is being mentioned and even Martin to go to Hawthorn if Buddy leaves. A new coach can develop a new culture if there is significant change in the list. Adding 5-6 good mids and quick skillful players can change our list substantially. Over a year or two these players could completely change our game. Players like Viney, Toumpas, Fitzy, Clisby, Terlich, Blease, Gawn, Kent, Taggert, Tynan and McDonald etc can improve. Most agree our backs, forwards and rucks will be ok. We are pathetic in the midfield and couple that with a lack of disposal skill and pace and knowledge of a simple game plan, explains our current state on the field. We saw Port being beaten by GWS, have no money and being called the Melbourne of last year. Look at them now. It can be done. I agree it will not be easy to entice stars to our club, in fact it will be probably be impossible at the moment. However do we need stars now, or players with talent and hunger who are prepared to do whatever it takes, not in the Bombers' way, to forge successful AFL careers. Those players are out there, we just have to find them. I think of Barlow and even our Matt Jones from the VFL. What about other clubs in the AFL and the other clubs around the country. There are players who have been overlooked or are not getting a game, we must identify a few and get them.They are the sort of players who would come to us. They could provide the hard bodies, skill and experience that we need for the next period to get us competitive and back in the game again. I could go on, but I have made my point. WE ARE NOT FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Demons lose Picks 5, 32, and 47 spread over the 1999 and 2000 drafts for Salary Cap breaches. Demons select Luke Molan, Steven Armstrong and Aaron Rodgers with Picks 9, 25 and 26 in 2001. Demons select Daniel Bell and Nick Smith with Picks 14 and15 in 2002. Demons trade Pick 21 for Ben Holland in 2003. Demons turn Darren Jolly, Scott Thompson, Picks 13 and 29 into Matthew Bate, Lynden Dunn, Brent Moloney, and Paul Johnson in 2004. Demons trade Picks 28 and 44 for Byron Pickett in 2005. Demons select Cale Morton and Addam Maric with Picks 4 and 21 and trade Pick 38 for John Meesen in 2007. Demons select Sam Blease, James Strauss, and Jamie Bennell with Picks 17, 19, and 35 in 2008. Demons trade Brock McLean for Pick 11 and select Jordan Gysberts and select Luke Tapscott with Pick 18 in 2009. Demons lose Cameron Bruce and James McDonald prematurely and select Lucas Cook with Pick 12 in 2010. These are the bylines to our mysery. And it spans Boards and Coaches, almost generations... And it still hurts. Geelong is still fuelled by the drafts of 1999 and 2000. Scott Thompson would be capain of the club should fate have been different. You can keep looking for blame and assigning it to whomever but there is so much to go around that it becomes irrelevant. This club is not big enough to get out the torches again. There is no satisfaction in shooting yourself deliberately in the foot. You want this club to be great again? Forgive some Demons and get over it.

If you don't know where you've been, you don't know where you're going. It's not about living in the past. It's not even about copying the past. It's not about the need to forge a new future. It's about pride, heritage and ultimately, it's about who we are. We are the oldest organised sporting club in the world, and we don't even have our website telling people who we are, and where we come from.

The last days of The Hird Reich?

In short summary, biggest problems yesterday, Lack of speed - caused by going in to tall lack of confidence - all afraid to leave their man and hit a contest they are a chance to win no will to take he game on - a lot due to lack of confidence lack of intensity - can't understand this without getting inside the players heads At the moment we look woeful but the right changes can turn us fairly quickly, I am by no means talking of a rise like Port but back to being competitive and not getting regularly kicked from pillar to post. Prior to Lyon heading to the Dockers C.Pearce, & Walters were to fat to play a the highest level Crowley was to muscle bound to play as a run with player on the games best mids Deboer had terrible disposal but always played with high intensity Mayne ran around like a headless chook in the forward line and was a terrible shot for goal Michael Johnson & Paul Duffield had seen their best football & their forward line could not function without Pavlich Lyon turned that all around with discipline, a strict code of expectations relating to weight/skinfolds and a game plan which relies upon structures and not the individual. This is not easy to do and relies upon the right personality in the coach and getting the players to buy in. Dees fans talk about Nicholson, Tom Mac and Davis having shocking disposal by foot and there is no argument (although I see improvement in Tom Mac) but make not mistake there is no player in the AFL who kicks the ball worse than Zac Dawson. This did not matter at St Kilda and it makes no difference at the Dockers. Lyon has him that well drilled he knows what he has to do, knows his limitations and plays to his strengths and does what is best for the team and its structure. Basically we need to get the coaching decision right easier said than done but the correct choice will see us turn things around next year and start heading back in the right direction. We can not afford to get this wrong

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me....

You don't know CC do you, wyl? You are so quick to damn Demons. This club is a shell because we keep burning each other and pointing at one another for the malaise we are in. This club needs to grow up and that includes it supporters.

I have read this thread over the last couple of days. Let me say one thing loudly. I WANT TO SEE JACK WATTS STAY AT THE MFC....AND I WANT TO SEE JACK WATTS COACHED BY AN EXPERIENCED SUCCESSFULL COACH WHO HAS LIFTED A PREMIERSHIP CUP IN SEPTEMBER. Shame on the MFC for its absolute shoddy treatment of this kid with potential, which started with that disgraceful Queens Birthday farce where he was thrown to the wolves whilst the PA system announced it. It was horrible. Thankfully all the clueless fools who initiated that rubbish are gone. Lets see Roos coach Watts. Not Malthouse, because they do want him. That i know. Wake Up.

I cannot believe some absolute deadset muppets are already writing of toumpas after 12 games!! WTF is with you idiots!? The bloke is coming off a no pre season base due to his hips which alters your core strength and takes a while to build over. Playing games now means he is catching up on pre season fitness but also valuable experience. Not trying to make an excuse but when you dont have the pre season fitness base behind you, your going to be playing catch up football all year. He will be very much better prepared next year when he has had a solid summer on the track and new coaching panel. He has also had to look up to Grimes and Trengove as leaders and lets be honest both arent really much chop. The midfield around him is absolutely diabolical Lack of leadership in showing the kids like toumpas, kent etc in being the ultimate professional in what it takes to become an A grade player DEVELOPMENT and CULTURE are the main reasons why our young player havent kicked on! We are on life support and battling a spreading cancer thats affected our club for years. So for all you imbociles saying he is a dud, wasted pick, trade etc you can all EAD!

Yes, Jimmy is a different type of player but it's the comments from people like Rucciuto and a few other experts who continue to say don't worry the kid will be a gun that make me feel we have got it right. Lets sit back and watch, I think he is carrying the burden of Cook, Gysberts, Morton and to some degree Watts and it's unfair on him. ...and yes Wingard pretty much signed himself up as an AA with his effort for Port today.

As with Clark and Dawes, our only attractiveness at the moment is money. That's how we get Taylor Adams. Offer him a three year $400,000 deal. That's a lot of money for a young mid. Perhaps even add an extra year on that deal. These are the types that will turn around our fortunes quickly and the perfect age bracket.

We are far from tanking, we are just outright pathetic.

Last year in his first season, Chad Wingard, (a player that Toumpas has been frequently compared to pre-draft, although I don't necessarily agree) statistically had: - 5 games with only 6 disposals - 9 games with 11 or less disposals - 16 games with 16 or less disposals He really didn't set the world on fire, and I'd say some of his games were very average. He also wasn't coming off surgery on both hips. But look at him now. It really will be a great surprise if he is not All Australian.

if there is one thing that I am really, really, really sick of.. it's players getting continually excused for underperforming because they had an injury at some point. If you are declared fit to play and you are selected you should have no excuses

Thanks for that mjt. So then we will not be hearing from you anymore? After all, why should you bother (us)?

The oldest club in the world embarrassed by the newest. Not much to respect about the club now, so all we have to keep us proud of our club is our history. Go to the History tab on the Melbournefc website. Have a look at what it doesn't have. Not a paragraph about our heritage and history. Just a weird and out of context list that has Mitch Clisby on it. Says it all in my book.

Haven't you heard? Hird is the word!

mmmwwahahahahaa !!! oh...sorry...damn shame what

Fox sports is saying that Essendon will lose their points at seasons end... That is no punishment unless their win the flag and have it stripped. If the penalties are not handed down til seasons end they should play next year for no points like the storm did.

If carlton offer us pick 9 for Watts it needs to be seriously considered, he has huge upside, but he is a little soft so he may never realise it regardless of who coaches or where he plays, pick 9 would get us Crouch who is a young contested ball machine ( exactly what we need right now )

The majority of this group is on its fourth coach in just over 24 months and the results only seem to get worse. It is not the coach. The playing group is not good enough. Why is that so hard to accept.

why would a ceo make a call on a player? this is the same thing people criticised schwab for edit:sp

Since when did a TV channel think about "doing the right thing" It is about money front , centre and back.

Their may be a couple of clubs that think he is worth a chance at a reasonable deal. There is quite often a coach that thinks I can bring it out in this kid. We had one who thought Gillies, Pedersen and Sellar where a chance to make it. Ha ha.

He will be four years too late jazza. Watts should have spent way more time there in the beginning. But as usual we want miracles from kids in their first couple of years. I think Jack actually thinks he is way better than he is because he has believed the MFC propaganda that started in 2009. I actually think we need to retain him but at the right price. If that is not possible trade for the best deal we can imagine and if no one takes the bait. Well guess what Jack you stay here or go to another low side in the Pre season draft.

Thanks Iva. Good research on the quotes.I think your view on the tanking is your own and do be it. It was hardly a "red herring" as as you have said the AFL wanted to stop the practice. It's a victim excuse to call us the fall guy. Given the public comments made by Vlad about tanking, there was no keenness on the AFLs part to investigate this. As was shown there was no winners out of this. As the AFL had removed the mandatory PP, it was in their interest to have the issue go away. But it didn't. The extent of MFCs action in 2009 and the ongoing speculation thereafter culminating in the McLean disclosures left the AFL with no option but to formally investigate. I understand the investigation brought up more than the AFL had hoped for. We all know the implications of an adverse finding on the club. A convenient and illogical enquiry outcome was concocted where Connolly and Bailey took the fall and executive management (Schwab) and the Board were blissfully and ignorantly unaware of the strategy.......even though the media and football public thought otherwise. The sad thing about Connolly (and Bailey) taking the hit is those they sought to "protect" are either no longer alive or have been deposed for other issues. IMO, it's contrived expediency for the AFLs sake that the enquiry ended like it did. The real issue again IMO is the rest of the football world including many of our supporters believed we tanked. And for various reasons depending on where you sit recognise the outcome as a sham.

The Stynes Board were magnificent at raising money from members. Jimmy's charisma raised in the order of $5 million for the club over about a 4 or 5 year period. In that time the MFC would have had total revenues of something in the order of $150 million so in reality the fund raising added about 3% to the bottom line. It's interesting to reflect now on how much of that money has gone into paying out McNamee, Connolly, Schwab and Neeld. It's also sad that that money, which if my understanding is correct, was set aside for the FD was wasted on a flawed structure and resulted in the club being at rock bottom on field. The Gardner Board inherited a debt of about $5 million, had 4 years of profit and a terrible financial year in 2007. At the end of the 2007 financial year the club again found itself in a position of about $5 million in debt but that included the payout to McNamee who Stynes dismissed quickly. So Gardner broke about even. Stynes/McLardy Board raised money but at the end of this year we will find ourselves firmly in the red again and requiring the AFL to bail us out to the tune of $2.5 million. The reality is that neither Stynes/McLardy nor Gardner nor any Board before them in AFL history have been able to establish a sustainable business model to allow us to be consistently competitive. Great Pretender you were the one that brought up Gardner so don't blame me for responding to your barb and false criticism. Very little of what you say is factually correct and if it was I wouldn't feel the need to respond to your posts. Get it right and you won't have a problem with my responses. It actually wasn't and if you think we didn't play for draft picks you've misread the situation badly. The tanking investigation was a white wash because to find us guilty of tanking would have put our poker machine revenue at risk and that wasn't in anybody's interest. Anyway it's old news and if people are happier believing we were innocent in 2009 that's fine.

Yeah we'd kill it with Clark. Our 20 inside 50s would give him every opportunity to smash the opposition,.. And BTW have a look at HFCs record without Buddy.....

actually i was thinking

out of left field a little ... I watched The Gold Coast v WCE game and couldn't help notice the commitment of one Campbell Brown... He ran and ran and ran and even chased an opponent from 30 metres away until that opponent had actually released the ball and on many occasions he was bearing down on that player at such a rate he actually forced them to get rid of the ball and at times caused errors... Why can't we chase like this ?? Why don't WE want to run our gutses out for the club as Brown does.. He showed what grit and determination is all about... And he is not one of the younger players... I couldn't help thinking... What an example of passion and belief in what he is doing... We want that attitude in our players... THEN we can hold our heads high when we walk off the ground.... WIN or lose... Justsaying.........

Their vehicles are marginally better than our team.

Belief brings a lot of skill into the game. All these players can play. You don't get drafted if you don't tear up the lower leagues. It's lack of belief in the style; in the team; in their team mates; in themselves; and in the club. Sure we're not going to be world beaters if that changes and nothing else does, but we'd be a different team with belief. Remember 87? Remember 2000? Were those teams suddenly that much more skillful leading into the last 6 or so games? Did they learn some new technical thing? Nope. They had faith in themselves, their teammates and the club. Dunno how you get it back, but if we can we'll stop being that rabble that we are.

I agree with a lot of what you say above Iv'a However there is one vital missing ingredient SKILL Port had a number of players that were clearly better than ours. Everything comes back to one fact. We have drafted some shockers over the last 6 years. Nothing will compensate for their replacement. It is going to take 3 - 4 years to remedy that problem. IMO there is not going to be any quick turn around. Just a slow painful journey back to respectability.

jr Grimes is a half back He is played in the mid field because he is the better of a sorrow bunch. The same applies to Trengove, he is a half forward. Melbourne will be a good side when these guys are not needed for the mid field.

Well guys i had a good weekend up in Bendigo. Five mates and I got together and chewed the fat about our long gone youth. Visited a few old Haunts, we had one wife chauffeur us around to a few pubs we used to frequent. Not to many beers and we all retired around mid night after a night cap single malt. All up for brunch with wives, some of the children and grand children. Almost a great weekend. The downer was our old team Eaglehawk who were on top of the ladder got done by 11 goals. It must be me!!!! Home yesterday afternoon. Then the crap sets is Dees are officially the worst team in the competition and Casey could not beat time with a stick. I learn't a couple of thinks over the weekend. - My old cronies team is suffering the passing of time, we drank a quarter of what we would have 45 years ago - there is way more to life than the MFC.

And weren't Geelong and the Swans going to pick Gysberts had we not done so?! It's clear that players recruited in the Bailey years did not develop properly/as they should have.

Most recruiters in the competition had him at number 1. And that's according to Gubby Allan, not Barry Prendergast.

316 your point gets hidden behind your recall bias. Sloane was a late pick and isn't exactly a star, he's a strange example. Freo are one of the hardest toughest teams going around and there 3 best mids in Fyfe, Mundy and Barlow were all skinny kids at one stage. Although they are tall for mids. Chad Wingard was a skinny kid who put on a clinic and won a show down today. Michael Walters did it for Freo last night. The Predergast drafting era was a disaster because he focused on attractive elements of a player rather than the collective worth. But Toumpas v Wines is different. It's simply 2 guys with different skill sets at different stages of development. But very importantly Toumpaa is a footballer. The clubs development of players has been atrocious, at least the recruiters changed last year and the coaches will change now

The hardest, toughest, most courageous player in that trade is Watts. He's also more talented than the other two put together. I wouldn't touch that trade with a ten foot pole.

Defensively plays like he's jogging the tan.

at least three occasions yesterday he was clearly nor working when he should have been. That is just straight out infuriating

Strauss putting his hand up with almost weekly appearances in Casey's best player list.

Sylvia used to be my pet frustration. He can go if he likes.. I really dont care anymore. In fact id rather he did and freed up a spot and cash. Now Watts is my #1 Frustration. Heres a kid who does have ability. We see it from time to time. But just as often we see effort and brain fades. Could he /would he perform to around 80% for most of a game hed be a star.. But WILL he ?? Maybe Roos senses the latent potential...wtfk !!! Hes not playing like he really wants to be at the club. Why cant they all adopt the Jones ethic ?? Id rather 90% of someone with 75% the abilty across a season than that which WATTS curently offers. Im really disappointed in this kid.

I watched the game with the GWS Coterie group, and after the game chatted to several GWS assistant coaches and players. Here's some of what they said (nothing particularly remarkable). 1. The Demons are a rabble. 2. Getting a coach that the players like/respect is absolutely key and it needs to happen soon - otherwise we're facing a mass player exodus. 3. I reckon GWS are going to have a red hot crack at Frawley next year - they need another key defender, and they reckon Frawley's a gun. Many seemed to think he's our best player. 4. They really rate Scully and reckon he'll dominate next year. Scully thought the MFC was about the most amateur organisation in the country - left for more reasons than just $$$. 5. They thought Toumpas was an absolute bargain at pick 4. They very nearly took him at pick 2. I asked if we stuffed up not picking Wines instead of Toumpas. They said absolutely not - Toumpas will be a bloody good player. Just needs time. 6. Watts may very well go to Carlton. One coach commented that he's talented, but lazy - and he reckoned Watts for Yarran would be a good trade for us. Thought Yarran was a bit lazy too though. 7. Reckons Sylvia will stay, principally due to his age - he's more valuable to the MFC than most other clubs. Rated him our most dangerous player and they were very happy about the way in which they shut him down yesterday. In fact, all were saying Sylvia only jagged 12 possessions - they kept saying it. He is one of the very few mids they rate on our list. One coach liked Matt Jones and they all rate Nathan Jones. 8. They think Trengove and Grimes are solid players, but suggested that they have too much pressure on their shoulders for their age/experience. 9. The AFL is committed to the Demons. Some rumours that Roos will be offered about $2M a year to take the job. He wants to see the MFC get the board structured appropriately before entertaining things any further. Probably doesn't want the job, but the AFL is determined to get him to do it. 10. If this doesn't happen, I think we should throw sheep stations at Choco Williams and Junior McDonald. They rate both of them highly - in fact, the players reckon of all the GWS assistant coaches, Junior is most likely to be a really good head coach. I simply cannot believe how we handled Junior McDonald at the end of his career at the MFC - a total fiasco IMO. 11. Hogan will be a star. 12. Sheedy is probably the most charismatic man in football. Real tragedy we didn't take him in 2007. That's about it.

Stats, gameplans, KPI's, none of it means anything right now, the players have 0 heart, 0 confidence and 0 pride, fix those and we might start to improve.

I am sick of hearing they look down. How about showing it on the ground where it actually matters. Craig is kidding himself if he thought our effort was there. They were outrun by a bunch of kids whilst they jogged the lines of the square. Our effort and execution is the worst I have seen of any side over a season in my 38 years of watching football.

We didn't draft wines, we have Jimmy Toumpas, he has bucket loads of ability, so let's not throw this kid to the sharks because he hasn't got ten best on grounds in his first ten games.

My stupid post match/scotch conspiracy: AFL tells Melbourne we will give you Roos,Cash and extra picks. Just give GW$ the win.

Can we just forfeit the last few game, I just can not take any more.

Who the F... , does he think he is?