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Not sure why people continue the basketball speak when talking about Jack. He played as much football as he did basketball growing up. Happy for Hawkins to show a bit last year after dealing with his share of haters. As long as Jack continues improving I'll be happy. Bit of a different in the two but so not much point in comparing. Hawkins as always been a physical player as a junior, crunching people in his way. Obviously everyone was his size when he made it with the big boys so it was always going to take time to build more strength and regain his confidence. Also, Tom also would have been walking a couple inches taller looking around and seeing Mooney, Chappy, Stevey J and Jpod around him knowing if he cops some stick he will be protected. Who did Jack have when he began? Have a look at the 2009 Demons list, he would have walked into a forward line containing the intimidating figures of Robertson, Bate, Green and Maric. Enough to keep any opposition backman sleepless the night before. Jack was taller and silky as a junior playing a variety of spots. He never imposed himself on games like a Carey or Brown however he dominated them with his speed and agility. Everyone had this dream we were getting a Carey or Brown player but he was never going to play like these two. The ridiculous expectations we put on him people believe he is soft. Continually jumping back with the flight intercepting marks in front of opposition players is not soft. He isn't physical or intimidating but he is not scared to have a go. Disappointing as a number 1 draft pick he maybe to some but he was clearly the best player at the time. We would have been crazy not to pick him. Come on Jack! Prove your doubters wrong!!

Spoke to Dom the other day and he said that he currently weighs 70kg with a long term goal to get to 80kg. Has already put on 4kgs since being drafted. Also told me that the coaches want to get at least 1 game into him this year for his development. This kid has a smart head on his shoulders and is way beyond his 18 years of age. He is actually related to Amos Frank from the hawks. At 183 cm and lighting quick skills I'm expecting big things from Dom.

Well it must be true then. Have never seen so much shiite written about any footballer in my lifetime. Don't see it about Scully, dont see it about Patten, don't see it about Kruezer. Give it rest you muppets. He plays for Melbourne. Its a new season. Try just supporting him as a 21 year old.

If Barry turns out to be a decent player the deal will have been even better than that. It can be debated forever what we really got for those Scully compo picks but at the very least the direct trade was Hogan, Dawes and Barry. It will be argued for all time that it also included Viney being left to 26 and Toumpas being left for us at 4. Without the Scully picks according to Harrington the Club would have used pick 3 to get Viney and then we would have picked whoever was still there at 26 and if you look at the draft picks within four places either side of 26 there isn't anyone I've ever heard of. So if that logic is remotely close to the truth then the Scully picks delivered us Toumpas, Hogan, Dawes & Barry, assuming Barry is more valuable than who we would have got at 26. Barry was a NT player GWS had tied up so we wouldn't have got him without trading with them. It's a hell of a result either way. Mind you let's hope Dawes delivers and if he does we might look back and thank Chris Judd. His massive salary meant Carlton didn't have the room for Dawes who they surely need even more than we do. I'm sure if they had the salary cap room to match us he would have gone there as they are much closer to finals and Premierships than we are. For the moment.

I still think he'll be a great player for the club. His first two years were fantastic. He was still ok in 2012, but was a lot more defensive. He laid a lot of tackles, did more grunt work, but wasn't very effective offensively. I thought it was widely noted he developed a form of O.P. and thus lost lots of his running and kicking power. His kicking was well down last year. He wouldn't make the distance from 40 metres out at stages when taking set shots. He'll have an average season this year due to his foot injury and lack of preparation. Missing out on preseason is massive. Even stars like Luke Hodge can't perform when they miss fitness training. It's just crucial in this day and age. Long-term though I think he'll be a star. He is just a superbly rounded player in the Jimmy Bartel mould. He can play anywhere, do the hard stuff, use his skills outside, and take a hanger and nail a goal. With more fitness and development his star will shine and thankfully it will be in a red and blue, as he's a loyal and level-headed guy.

Don't do this thread while his foot is in a moonboot... He is setup for an awful year. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but let's not build up a situation doomed to fail. 2013 will be a tough one for Trengove.

"Tanking", as mandated by the rules and the directives of the AFL's CEO, does not include employing unusual tactics in matches, using players in positions where they do not usually play, resting star players with minor injuries, who would likely not be rested if the team were contesting finals or playing younger players who do not yet have much experience at AFL level. On that basis, we've never tanked according to the AFL rules but we have, like many others, been naughty boys. I'd like to see the AFL put an end to this farce, not by persecuting one club and one club alone, but rather by drawing up new laws that make it very clear what behaviour is acceptable and what is not. Needless to say, that would absolve the MFC of all potential charges in the AFL's tanking folly. As for last year, we might have been naughty boys but we didn't lose the last ten matches of the season like the Bulldogs did in their unsuccessful bid to finish third last and therefore finish up with picks 3 & 4 ahead of 5 & 6. Their performance in losing to an emaciated and injury stricken Carlton was pathetic and I'm surprised that it escaped the attention of pundits like Jay Clark and Jon Pierik.

now you have to change your name to "ILLDieADemonUnleSSWeTaNk"

I cant believe the journo's dont join the dots and note that this is the same scumb bag who managed Scully's deal to GWS. They draw the longest of bows when 'reporting' (speculating) about the tanking saga, but somehow they dont feel obliged to muck rake in this scenario?

Rioli was drafted at 74kg. As mentioned previously, Stephen Hill was drafted at 72kg and played all 22 games. It really gets down to Barry's mindset. If he's good enough and soft he won't play many games. If he's good enough and attacks the contest he's ready to stake a claim.

OK, let me put it another way. The definition of tanking has been discussed, debated, dissected and regurgitated so often that having another discussion about it here is just plain boring. My premise is that there is a significant chance that we wanted to finish third last in 2012. Called it "Advanced List Management" if you like. Happy? If not don't read my posts. Simple.

How about 'Bluey' Truscott??

Ha! The Gull of Kintyre!

In that case the punishment will have been 7 months of crap and damage to our reputation. Probably not much left of it by now as the general public thinks we are guilty. Never mind we only didd the same as 6 other clubs.

Terrific. An Age reporter who works at racing stables. Which of your workplaces produces more horse manure?

Reading Demonland as I have over the last few months I think most here believe that no team in the history of the AFL has ever tanked. We've managed to redefine the word to completely suit our needs.I think things would have been different if it had been Carlton being investigated and we'd never received a PP and had no exposure to any ramifications. Just a guess..........

You nailed it Josh! It was going to be a complex alpha/numeric test. Clue # 1: My family name starts with the first letter of the English alphabet. Clue # 2: The second letter is equivalent to 50 in Roman numerals. Clue # 3: The third letter is the same as 5 in Roman numerals. Clue # 4: Subtract the answer to clue #3 from from clue #2 and divide by 3 to obtain my guernsey number.

I'm not privvy to any of the politics involved but I'm happy with the choice.

Watching training on Wednesday I was very impressed with Gillies, I have a feeling he is heading the queue to be the third lock behind Frawley and McDonald. Frawley was fantastic, he was the backline General and in the drill where they were intent on moving the ball from the backline just about everything went through him. McDonald was also fantastic, he is a gun and easily our second lock in the backline. But as the thread suggests the other four positions are open. In Wednesdays training Col Garland wasn't used in that backline third tall role, Gillies was and he was good, I'm locking him in. Working the other way I agree Davis and Clisby are depth only, Tynan has good skills, runs well but looks a bit immature still so may struggle to get many games. Last Wednesday I reckon I would have included Terlich as he was great clearing long from the backline but this week he looked a bit more like a one trick pony and he may need to work on some aspects of his game before he gets a chance to break into the side. So thats three in and four out, how many left? 8. 8 into 3. I think we'll get two extra defenders on the interchange, so 8 into 5. Hmmm, well I'll go the most versatile in Watts who can play further up the ground and Nicho, actually Nicho is a candidate to get re-invented, he has great stamina and someone suggested a run with role, his skills though are at times poor but as a stopper he could excell. And I like him. So in he goes. I'll now go with the audience vote and include Dunn, lots of great arguments for his inclusion so in hegoes. Now we're left with Garlo, Sellar, Macdonald and Jetta. Into two interchange spots. Hang on I'll be back I just need to ring a friend. "Neeldy! Hows it going. Yes its me, remember, Dumdee. Just playing fantasy backline and... whats that, oh, sorry, never again, right..." Aaah I choose D. Yes Eddie lock it in.

when did corduroy jackets go out of fashion? did i miss something?

Sorry for the issues over the past couple of weeks but we are back better than ever after moving to a new server. Enjoy All!

You can be very selfish and shallow Biffen! . Of course bladders, especially leaky ones, are a valid and important subject of discussion. Need I remind you that this is a footy forum. Where would our great game be without bladders? Now you need to take a firm hold of yourself and reflect on the importance of bladders.

Trenners will be fine once he overcomes his footy injury which indeed might impact on his 2013 season though to what extent we dont know. What we do know is that having 1 and a half Misson pre seasons under his belt means that he is better placed to salvage the season than he would have been prior to Misson's arrival at the club. Sure he did not seem to play with great zest last year but for mine there were 2 factors in that. 1 - The 2012 pre season was simply harder than our players had experienced previously. I have no doubt that Trengove would have been one of the players tackling the challenge of their first Dave Misson pre season with great intensity. In the shirt term ie last season - he was perhaps cooked. 2 - Neeld made it clear our game had to have the hard defensive edge that has been lacking since the John Northey era. Now that sounds simple to type and to read but in reality implementation by the players is far from simple. It entailed an almost 180 degree change in their decision making and positoning. For mine Trengove over corrected in order to ensure he was setting the right defensive mindset example which Neeld pretty much admitted.

In answer to the OP, I say "why not"? Despite a few misguided posters on either side taking pot shots at each other, we've co-existed well and I'm proud to say that over the years we've had combined sponsorships supporting the club and its younger players (which abruptly and inexplicably ended after CAC1972 left and was replaced as head recruiter by BBBP) and together we've produced inter forum footy teams that beat all comers year in, year out. Sooner or later, our incredible success as supporter sites must rub off on the Demons' main side.

Yeah --- like this ...

I got in ... so lunatics are definitely allowed. Thanks Nasher for the reinstatement. It's good to be back.

There are a number of things to consider but I believe we can't really judge how Jack will turn out until at least the end of the 2014 season. He's got very good basic footy skills so that bit is not an issue. I believe at under 18 level it's impossible to judge how all players will turn out by the time they reach the ages of 21 to 23. Opinion is still quite divided right now on Jack. Opinion is not so divided with high draft picks from 2006 or earlier. We are generally seeing the finished product so it's a no-brainer. Like Trengove, Scully and others, we still haven't seen the finished product with Watts. Cook being delisted can cloud people's judgement a bit but I don't necessarily see the comparison. The Cook decision was an internal one and most of us had no clue until very late in 2012 that he was going to be delisted (and not picked up again). The match committee had probably made up their mind early last year about Cook. Same with Gysberts to a certain degree. If you look at any draft prior to say 2006, then the 'real' order would be quite different every single time. The Draft is littered with odd choices and dud picks. And it will continue to be the case. They keep saying that they're better at judging these kids it but I reckon that's total rubbish. Just more spin. Every player needs to be judged separately. Jack has got a long way to go but I'm hoping he turns out to be a very good player for us . Star quality, 'A' grade elite ? That may not happen but it depends on your expectations - I won't be disappointed if he's not an absolute star because I never placed those sort of expectations on him. Ditto for Trengove, Sylvia, Hogan, Viney or Toumpas.

I got down to Gosch’s Paddock this morning. After chatting to Jordie McKenzie it became apparent that Wednesday is not the best day to get to training. He said most of those on lightened loads did the full session on Mondays and Fridays, and then did minimal weight-bearing stuff on a Wednesday. For example, McKenzie, Evans, Spencer, Gawn and Viney did some stoppage work at the start of the session, and then they headed inside for a bike session Other observations: -I didn't see Toumpas, but I arrived at 9.30. Trengove and Joel Mac walked some laps and then went inside with the others and did a bike session. -Clark did some very light 20m straight-line running and that was all. -Taggert, Grimes, Jamar, Davey and Hogan did some stuff inside and then came out and walked some laps. -Bail did repeat effort running by himself for the duration of the session. -Dawes continued to impress me with his mobility at ground level and his strength in marking contests. He rag-dolled Gillies at least a couple of times that I saw. -Frawley spent part of the session working with the forward-line group. Perhaps Neeld sees him as an option down there until big Mitch gets right, considering that we already have Garland, Gillies, Watts, McDonald and Sellar who can play KDP roles??? -It was a very busy session. There were 2 AFL umpires taking the full ground stuff again It mostly focused on ball movement from defence to attack, using both sides of the ground, and on working hard defensively when we don’t have the footy. -Dean Kent is a beautiful kick. Twice I found myself applauding him hitting targets 50m away. -Clisby and Stark did most of the session. Stark struggled a bit to pick up the pace of training, but Clisby was calm, made good decisions and used the ball well. I had a chat to Mitch Clisby and he said he was happy to be doing something other than just running laps. -Tappy completed the session. If he continues to build his tank I think he can useful as a high half forward. -Fitzy was jumping out of his skin. He got on the end of a couple and took some strong marks on the lead. If he can improve this area of his game he can be really dangerous t AFL level.

Gladly post on both, am glad we have two. Different opinions and personalities on both, separating them is a bonus as long term bickering would destroy the one site, at least having 2 sites dilutes this again. 'Ology used to be a fantastic forum, has gone backwards in the last few years due to new members not being able to join, but hopefully, thanks to the great work of a few, it will grow again and have some of the knowledgable conversations that they have had in the past. As for the rivalry, it says more about the posters that encourage it and put down the other site than it does the sites.

Pierik states: "eight were interviewed as part of the AFL's investigation into the team's coaching and management philosophy in a year the club was desperate to not win more than four matches and therefore secure the two top picks in the national draft". Since when do journalists speculate on the motives and therefore guilt, or innocence of a club when they're supposedly reporting on the matter ? Melbourne deny any tanking charges, but the reporter is insinuating that we were loathe to win, which is at the crux of this investigation.

From rnds 8-15 last year he was the #1 player in the AFL for intercept marks, intercept possessions and yardage gained. Then he got injured. A season like those 8 rounds will be pretty good.

Just took the time to listen to the presser ( as opposed to read the words etc ) . This bloke is a gem. That he would want to be part of a re-invigorated Melbourne says much I feel about the likely hood of us getting there. A very considered orator. I think his role in the Sports Performance position will pay dividends way over in the next few years. He brings a level of intuition, understanding and polish that this club hasnt had for......... hmm I can see why Neeld and Craig work so well together. You cant build anything of note without a plan and these guys ( together with Misson ) are the Architects of a New Melbourne. Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will the resurgent Demons, but im glad were in their collective hands.

{7} for differentiation. I am innocent of all proposed charges because they don't exist as offences.

<5>

Was hoping to spark an anti-agist tirade but you've all gone to bed .

Was tracking just fine until last season, for which I am definitely in the 'he was carrying an injury' camp. As stated earlier this year is not set up well due to spending a large chunk of the pre-season in a moon boot, but long term I think he will be a very good player. He is a hard worker who won't leave anything to chance, and if the injuries allow him I think he will become the player he is capable of. He has good skills and is a good mark for his size.

I remember noticing In his highlight videos and even his first year he had the ability to burst away from stoppages. I'm not sure whats happened to that speed off the mark but he looked very slow at times last year. I mentioned my concern about his pace last preseason and got shouted down but I do believe It's an issue. I just hope that he was carrying an injury last year.

On %, our first 11 games yielded a % of 55.92 whereas the last 11 games % was 80.7. Clearly we got better as the year went on and, had we retained Clark, would've been even better IMO. I'm expecting quite an improvement this season across the board.

Jack was a skinny kid when he played his first game against the filth. ( Also remember the p- weak support he got). He is bigger now but not big enough to be a pack busting, stand your ground forward. We have now recruited those big guys. I will be more than satisified if Jack intercepts across half back and kicks long and accurately to a leading Clarke or Dawes or Howe.

It's been far too long since anyone has written this here.

I'm excited about this Dunne fellow. Anyone have anymore info on him?

I confess to having doubts about your spelling

I’ll leave the comprehensive reports to BH or others but I’ll share some of my personal observations. I got there before the official starting time and Gawn and Spencer were being put through some ruck/ midfield drills. Viney, Mckenzie and two others completed the set up. It was the first time I’d seen Gawn standing next to Spencer and, given Spencer’s size, Gawn is a real ogre. The drills weren’t competitive as such because Gawn and Spencer were put in predetermined positions to take the tap. Gawn looked fully free in his movements. Interestingly, Viney fumbled a couple of times and got really dirty on himself. They stayed at this for a good 20 minutes then left. I heard Jordie tell another spectator that he had a “bike test” – so I’m guessing they all had. I did not see Jamar until later and he was walking laps with Davey. Grimes was also walking laps later. Trengove was also there early but didn’t do any training. After some running work, the bulk of the players worked in two large groups that consisted of moving through traffic and disposal under pressure. I had noticed earlier how fit Frawley looks and he was very impressive in this drill. Barry also stood out with his very quick and clean hand skills. This was a very fast session with continuous movement and group interchanges. In general it was quite impressive. At the conclusion of that, I saw Mitch Clarke heading off. He was intercepted by a proud young couple with their little kids all done up in Demon gear. He very obligingly posed for a number of shots with dad and his boys. It was a nice moment. The next drill of interest was match simulation, using the whole ground and three rotating teams. I found Dunne very impressive. The wind was getting up at this time but he got plenty of the ball, handled it cleanly, and kicked long when required. I confess to having doubts about Dunne but he certainly looked good today. Nicholson was also very impressive. He was covering a lot of territory and using the ball well. Watts was also good and always seemed to have plenty of time. Dawes moved well and doesn’t seem to have any injury issues. He made position well but was not dominant. Tom Mac. Spoiled him on occasion. The training was mostly taken by Craig but Neeld did arrive later.

What does a top 8 side at training look like, never been to one, assume they don't drop the ball, miss a kick, drop a mark, break into a sweat, look unkempt in their training tops, not get a hair out of place........... this is training...... they have now been at it solidly for nearly four months.........I am waiting to watch the praccy games and then the NAB Cup and then decide if we have improved or not I have been to training about seven or eight times and have been impressed by the effort being put in, that's all I am interested in at the moment

Agree with your point about the tackling. To me Bail looks good when he is running with the ball in his hands. BUT he gives away soooo many free kicks when not in possession, often at critical times in a game by a head high tackle or by falling into an opponents back. The most annoying thing is he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes... Drives me freakin crazy.

so just like Moe then?

My god, wtf is wrong with some people

Not if the club want my membership...i am sick of being told my club is useless.

Again no new news. Just a page filler full of innuendo and speculation, I did 'learn' that there is apparently a new charge for Bailey - "Former coach Dean Bailey is facing an additional third charge - of not coaching to his utmost." Utmost? That's an interesting one. Like to see the definition of that. Cos there certainly isn't one in the AFL rules as far as I am aware. Perhaps coaching to you 'extreme' ability?? 'Hey Dean you didn't coach to your extreme ability today just your usual every day garden variety average ability'. 'Off with his head'. It also appears in summary there are some 'disgruntled ex-employees' who perhaps have said we tanked and lots of current employees who say we didn't. No smoking gun. Impossible to charge anyone on that, Particularly when they are laughably focusing on the last 3 mins of the Richmond game, our 'fumbling' and the non playing of Watts. It is comedy central but I won't have a good belly laugh until they exonerate us completely.

Essendon are always in my sights. Their red sash is like a flag to me, it brings out a feral side, like it does with a bull. I guess it's 2000 still haunting me. Surprisingly I haven't had too many problems with many other supporters. I got into a verbal argument with a morbidly obese member of the doggies cheersquad once. He told me to shut up- I told him his club would have more supporters if he didn't eat them all. Fun times.