45 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

Im sorry I don’t buy the most taxing game plan stuff. We are 18th for pressure. 18th. We have one of the best injury lists.

Ultimately, I reckon we are years away before competing again.

me too

Max on the downward spiral

No key fwd Or plan

Replacement inside bulls?

Elite kicking and disposal

Composure

Things could get real ugly

Reset needed

Look I just want to get back to winning games like 21-23

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time.

It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk.

And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime.

The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue.

Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain.

Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it.

Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us.

Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example.

And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add.

If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue.

Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care.

Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways.

But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'.

No.

The same entirely goes with loading.

I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss.

Also no.

Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag.

Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

Edited June 28Jun 28 by Howard_Grimes

38 minutes ago, Howard_Grimes said:

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time.

It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk.

And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime.

The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue.

Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain.

Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it.

Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us.

Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example.

And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add.

If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue.

Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care.

Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways.

But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'.

No.

The same entirely goes with loading.

I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss.

Also no.

Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag.

Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

CARE TO APPLY FOR THE 2026 MELB GIG??? U GOT MY VOTE😇🤩

8 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time.

It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk.

And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime.

The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue.

Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain.

Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it.

Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us.

Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example.

And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add.

If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue.

Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care.

Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways.

But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'.

No.

The same entirely goes with loading.

I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss.

Also no.

Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag.

Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

Someone gets it.

Astute observation; knowledgably interpretated and very well articulated. Instead of leading folk down the rabbit hole of mumbo jumbo new-science explanations ( ne excuses ) here we have an opinion ( we all have them) which seeks to simply pull back the curtains and see what is , for what it is. But imho... here an opinion is underwritten by actually pointing out the matters of fact.

It's akin to a cerebral sorbet when many and sundry continually offer up trifled treatments.

I wish more would read your post @Howard_Grimes as to use a oft quoted idiom.

You've nailed it

Excellent post. Thankyou

9 hours ago, Superunknown said:

Look I just want to get back to winning games like 21-23

9 hours ago, Superunknown said:

Look I just want to get back to winning games like 21-23

Yes that would be nice. I presume this is what Goodwin means when he says 'we're in an outcome based sport'...the latest corporate cliche he has picked up in some seminar or other. I've defended him for 2 years with family and friends. But enough. The real worry is that so many players have either stagnated or done backwards...Windsor, Van Rooyen etc.

Can't think of a more obvious sporting case where a coaching cleanout is required.

5 minutes ago, Redlagged said:

Yes that would be nice. I presume this is what Goodwin means when he says 'we're in an outcome based sport'...the latest corporate cliche he has picked up in some seminar or other. I've defended him for 2 years with family and friends. But enough. The real worry is that so many players have either stagnated or done backwards...Windsor, Van Rooyen etc.

Can't think of a more obvious sporting case where a coaching cleanout is required.

And it is outcome based. Really what other metric is there at this level. Club footy, country teams are much more than simply the scoreboards they're about social fabric and neighbourly comraderies. AFL...it's the elite pointy end and it is very simply about winning. Competing alone is not enough.

As such it goes beyond 'personalities' as the driver. No only is it about outcomes it's about elements. What are the essentials to win ? The team and the method. These can be any as long as they work. Once they don't you seek those that do. To be cliche it's not personal and possibly this is where too many get caught up with our current demise. But ...but.. Simon's a nice guy, he's trying, he's only human... on and on. They're irrelevant . He's had a go. Managed a Flag ( with a lot of help ) but he did. Since then he hasn't provided the required outcomes.

The logical next step stares all in the face.

The club needs to take it.... if they want better outcomes.

I don’t see our problems as list issues, which is not saying we can’t improve in that area. I’m of the opinion on that MacRae would have this list in the top handful. Collingwood’s list is thin, Frampton, Markov and there’s others all slot into a system that is so well drilled that they keep winning. So where does that leave us? I’m ready for a new coach but get it wrong and we really are in trouble as we could easily do worse. We weren’t miles off this season but again the same issues persist which has to fall on the coaches.

One point to remember in all this is Goodwin was also dealt the Oliver and Petracca disasters. They weren’t his fault and he’s now playing his 2 Aces when in actual fact he’s holding a 10 of spades and a Jack of Clubs. Put those 2 back at their very best and we possibly aren’t having this conversation. Imagine if Richmond after 2017 had a 20% drop in form from Martin and Cotchin? Anyway I’ll continue to oscillate from absurd confidence to general malaise. At least Kozz ain’t leaving at years end!

Edited June 28Jun 28 by Roost it far

Many saying the cost of moving on Goodwin on, the reality is what’s it costing the club on gate receipts finishing bottom 6 , memberships ? How many coaches in their 10th season after winning a flag have climbed the mountain again, apart from Scott who got a premiership team still in the flag clock in 2011 every other coach was done , Clarko, Simpson, Hardwick & Longmire, who all overstayed their time, time for a new voice new ideas waiting for 2026 for what, take example of how the exits of Longmire, Simpson and Hinkley have been handled with respect.

Edited June 28Jun 28 by Demonsone

If the board can’t see we ALL need a fresh start in 2026 with a new coach then I hope they’re not shocked when the crowd numbers are even lower, when we finish bottom 2, when membership numbers are even lower than this year, When more players want to leave and are unhappy. They better not ask us to step up and get to games and buy a membership. They know where the fans stand and what they want. Even I feel drained from this year and the last two… I can’t imagine how the players feel.

12 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

Many saying the cost of moving on Goodwin on, the reality is what’s it costing the club on gate receipts finishing bottom 6??? How many coaches in their 10th season after winning a flag have climbed the mountain again, apart from Scott who got a premiership team still in the flag clock in 2011 every other coach was done , Clarko, Simpson, Hardwick & Longmire, who all overstayed their time, time for a new voice new ideas waiting for 2026 for what, take example of how the exits of Longmire, Simpson and Hinkley have been handled with respect.

Don't forget the further damage to our list that keeping Goodwin could cause.

Players devoid of confidence or lack of improvements.

No FA wanting to come to a sinking ship.

12 hours ago, BW511 said:

Remember last year when Trac, Clarry and Koz all wanted to leave?

That horse has bolted, Clarry and Trac are stuck against their will and both are playing like it.

The only reason they would be stuck here is because neither is prepared to give up the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

Clarry in particular could easily leave at year end if he was prepared to renegotiate his contract. But he won't be traded if we're still paying him $500K a year.

14 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

Many saying the cost of moving on Goodwin on, the reality is what’s it costing the club on gate receipts finishing bottom 6??? How many coaches in their 10th season after winning a flag have climbed the mountain again, apart from Scott who got a premiership team still in the flag clock in 2011 every other coach was done , Clarko, Simpson, Hardwick & Longmire, who all overstayed their time, time for a new voice new ideas waiting for 2026 for what, take example of how the exits of Longmire, Simpson and Hinkley have been handled with respect.

Btw, on Scott.

He was basically on the cusp of winning another premiership every season.

Perennial top 4 team and for the most part reaching Preliminary Finals.

Simon, on the other hand, bar 2018 and 2021 has an abismal record 0-4 in finals (all played at the MCG).

You can add to that list some finals like games:

• Last Rd in 2017 against Collingwood

• The North Queensland adventure against Fremantle and Sydney in 2020

8 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Btw, on Scott.

He was basically on the cusp of winning another premiership every season.

Perennial top 4 team and for the most part reaching Preliminary Finals.

Simon, on the other hand, bar 2018 and 2021 has an abismal record 0-4 in finals (all played at the MCG).

You can add to that list some finals like games:

• Last Rd in 2017 against Collingwood

• The North Queensland adventure against Fremantle and Sydney in 2020

My point is after 10 years history shows premiership coaches haven’t been able to climb the mountain again with the same group. Unlike the Cats our instability at board level continues to impact, cats have a clear strategy of not bottoming out missed finals twice since 07, attract marquee players.

Edited June 28Jun 28 by Demonsone

10 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time.

It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk.

And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime.

The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue.

Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain.

Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it.

Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us.

Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example.

And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add.

If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue.

Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care.

Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways.

But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'.

No.

The same entirely goes with loading.

I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss.

Also no.

Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag.

Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

Of course fitness plays a huge part but you are right that it’s probably more psychology than anything.

But what is your explanation for our amazing 37-7 run that took in the flag? During that run it was the same players and skill level. Interestingly we were either behind or even at 1/2 time or after in 26 of those games yet only lost 7. That is not a first half record of a team that would normally even make finals. If we were not super fit and mentally didn’t believe we were super fit during that run we probably finish bottom 6 in 2021.

Hayden Skipworth to replace Simon Goodwin

John Longmire to replace Alan Richardson

Bring on 2026!

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

It's akin to a cerebral sorbet when many and sundry continually offer up trifled treatments.

Good god, you have such a way with words… love it!!

The issue with Binman's stats is that mindset cannot be measured by Campion Data. It is measured with your eyes, and we all saw that we were ranked 18th for it yesterday. It has been the biggest issue in the last four seasons is the big ego players only buy into their own way of playing selfish footy. Trac wants to play mid at the detriment of the team to increase his Brownlow votes (quote from a very high Melbourne person no longer at the club).

I like Goody and want him to see it through to the next flag. He is a winner and definitely has it in him. There is a definite need for Assistant Coach replacement in full. He has a great relationship with the players and it would be sad to see him go. Even yesterday we were a huge change to get close to pinching it when Melk and Fritsch missed goals that other clubs would just nail. Again more points than goals. Mak no mistake this in between the ears stuff has cost us finals, flags, momentum, matches and is just embarrassing. What an opportunity the boys have blown.

Edited June 29Jun 29 by Wizard of Koz
becuase I typed like a gorilla with hemorrhoids

13 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time.

It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk.

And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime.

The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue.

Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain.

Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it.

Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us.

Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example.

And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add.

If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue.

Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care.

Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways.

But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'.

No.

The same entirely goes with loading.

I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss.

Also no.

Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag.

Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

Might be post of the year 👏

The worst thing that could happen to a club is to lose that heart beat.

It has happened to Mebourne in losing Gus and then Nibbler. (We still have Gawny). These people provided backbone and quality in their approach ( interesting how Adelaide have benefited from Nibbler's involvement and the respect he took to a new Club by their making him a V-C.

Lever has gone downhill (and now spends more time telling others what to do ). Maysie is still trying (to get Gawny to pass it to him. Fritta has dropped back (family ??) . Rivers has not quite kicked on and JVR has lost soem of the exhuberance.

Bowey plays above his height.

Langford,The Duke, McVee & Herbert are our future. Langford is the closest to Viney's Grunt.

We are in Transition !!!

Pickett, do you have that number for other teams? that might be damning and revealing!

19 hours ago, picket fence said:

Would'nt have thought it was that many!

2 hours ago, demoncat said:

Might be post of the year 👏

You clearly haven't been reading my posts.

2 hours ago, dimmy said:

The worst thing that could happen to a club is to lose that heart beat.

It has happened to Mebourne in losing Gus and then Nibbler. (We still have Gawny). These people provided backbone and quality in their approach ( interesting how Adelaide have benefited from Nibbler's involvement and the respect he took to a new Club by their making him a V-C.

Lever has gone downhill (and now spends more time telling others what to do ). Maysie is still trying (to get Gawny to pass it to him. Fritta has dropped back (family ??) . Rivers has not quite kicked on and JVR has lost soem of the exhuberance.

Bowey plays above his height.

Langford,The Duke, McVee & Herbert are our future. Langford is the closest to Viney's Grunt.

We are in Transition !!!

Being in Transition doesn't account for the first quarter and an inability to hit a target or kick a goal

29 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Being in Transition doesn't account for the first quarter and an inability to hit a target or kick a goal

This transition BS I don’t see the last 3 premiers finishing bottom 6 for 2 yrs in a row! Grant it both pies & cats missed finals after winning flags but they have bounced back with strengthen their lists vs our VfL recruits!