Time for a Change….Don’t wait another 2 years…

[drysdale demon 4,830]

21 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Thank god we don’t have a voice at the footy department!!!

Exactly thank god for that, would have folded years ago.

[Hellfire Dub 156]

10 hours ago, Hellfire Dub said:

It's so painful to see us kick 6:15 and that hateful team kick 14:5.  

Poor old Petty with twelve touches and zero score.  We've carried him for weeks for some reason I can't fathom and effectively been a man down all game.  It's starting to look like cruelty. 

Then you have Billings, Chandler, Laurie all 0.0.  and Turner 0.1.  I think our coaches think they're tactical geniuses who can do stuff that's never historically worked for anyone else and somehow make it work for us. 

The Grundy thing was wishful thinking, but the recurring effort to turn alright full backs into key forwards is just bizarre.  Why do we persist with the forward coaching setup that is clearly not delivering?  

Many of our players are poor kicks but great competitors so why suddenly try to have them avoid all contest and force them to play some over elaborate version of the beautiful game?  All around the field we keep kicking or handpassing the ball to opposition players and killing ourselves with demoralising turnover goals. 

The past couple of years we just needed to stop butchering the ball out of midfield and bombing it long to outnumbered contests.  I thought we could keep most of the rest of the game and just lower our eyes to players who should be making leads - like natural forwards would do instinctively unlike converts from full back.  

I don't rate Longmuir as a coach and think he often looks out of his depth but then I look at the humiliation he engineered for us last week.  What does that say about our coach.  

I was never convinced about the merits of our coach, but I think he's an absolute liability since Yze went.  22 and 23 were hard years watching us play, even during the games we won, but there's no tactical nous or in-game strategic responses.   I wish we'd elevated Yze (or someone else) instead, because SG was a known quantity and apart from the flag I always felt he underperformed. 

At the moment we're not even competitive we're embarassing.  I'm a fair person and don't like having a go at the man, but as a competitor you have to hope he'd be honest enough to admit he's not doing a great job, or that he's not going about it the right way. 

I'm pessimistic about the rest of the season and future years under him.  At least if the coaching situation changed we could try to restore some spirit and pride in the team and play some enjoyable competitive football, rather than repeating the same mistakes.  I fear there will be an exodus of players through retirement and frustration.  

From my background playing Gaelic Football, Rugby and even over 35s over here I feel like some players are lacking team spirit and pride right now.  I'm not sure the cause and I know they're professionals and it's a small community, but I think we're too soft and gentlemanly.  Stuff like the unnecessary friendliness to the Scumbag with the Skunk haircut doesn't sit well with me, nor does the failure to stick up for Max clearly getting belted.  

And before people have crack at me I am a redleg and go to almost every home and Marvel based game subject to occasional young family circumstances.  I really want us to improve and turn it around because honestly apart from a flag I watched on my couch in the company of some friends on skype screens there has been a lot of frustration in recent years, such as 2019 (I know injuries etc,) Straight sets and now West Coast, Freo Collingwood and I'm dreading what we'll dish up next.  Those losses and almost games were tolerable when we were being competitive, but that's hardly how I'd describe our recent form. 

Sigh.  

 

 

I wrote this in the post game thread last night, but it really belongs in this thread instead.  

[640MD 3,359]

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Yes that’s the footy department that 

wins inside 50s count for 3 years as a team but has constant “forward of centre” issues with scoring and conversions and says we are working on it 

uses James Jordon as a sub for 11 times in a season and refuses to give him game time and queries why he departs when his contract expires 

recruits Grundy and after 9 weeks says that’s enough, experiment over 

recruits Shane McAdam as an injury riddled 28 year old after 50 games in 8 years

recruits Hunter and Billings as ineffective,butter like, small non physical players to assist the salary dump from other clubs 

signs Laurie up for a 2yr extension as he shows nothing for 3 years and is way off becoming a league player 

alienates Tomlinson by playing him for one game, he plays well and gets dropped whilst others have 6-7 weeks of poor form and stay in 

alienates Woey jnr by playing him as a sub for 5/6 weeks and then dropping him whilst others are worse and keep getting games (Chandler, Billings, Hunter)

pushes Tom Sparrow up as a next gen midfielder but his skills and ballhandling and run is deteriorating

Pursues Petty as a key forward despite him being a premiership key defender 

Turning young Turner from a competent defender into a flawed forward option 

Keeping an aged Ben Brown on one leg and a dodgy back for another year 

Thank god we don’t have a voice at the footy department!!!

 

G'day    I do think most of your points are valid,  there are reasons for some, but arbitrating contracts should be part of negotiating.

I agree re  Jordan (needed more game time especially in 2021), Grundy, McAdam, Billings and Hunter, Laurie, Tomlinson and Woey, Sparrow and Turner.

I also wonder about Schache, and Fullarton.  We got rid of Weideman and other NQR players.  Absolutely no disrespect to those players.

Some, including the Coach will always be champions for the club and 2021,  We were the dominant team,   No Question,

Some should retire this year, better still now.   Give time to players  with not enough games to prove anything/ something.  2024 is done n dusted    2025 will be here very soon.    Once you reach the cliff or lean out the Premiership Window. its a long way down,  you either bounce like a live cat or a dead cat.

North Melbourne will think they have a huge chance and I dont think we are much better.

Go Dees

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

Given Tracs prognosis, 2024 is firmly shaping up as a failure. I am at peace with this. Once all the Melbourne bashing is done this week - as it will be the focus of the media 100% - it will be easier to move on. 

There is no need to fight this year. I mean what’s the point? Tank and tank hard. Get those surgeries done now, play the youth to work out who has AFL potential. 

We should finish bottom 6-8 which will give us a top 10 pick. Trade Petty and/or Oliver to give us another 1-2 1st rounders. This will restock our team prior to the Tassie pooshow that will envelop the comp in a few years time. 

At the same time we need to work out how we want to play. Are we going to be a ball movement team or a forward half territory team. Both though need to focus on turnover efficiency, which means having 1-2 good kickers, speed and agility on all lines. 

This l, I think will determine the fate of players like Oliver, Sparrow, Petty et al. Where teams have gone wrong is cutting too deep too quickly but I think we have the leadership in Trac, Lever and Gawn to get us through the tough times. 2025 will not be much better and we’ll add in another 1-2 1st rounders. 
 

The other option is to try and extend the window by bringing FAs but run the risk of falling off a cliff during Tassie related compromised draft. 

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,664]

It's quite obvious that the 2024 season is done from a premiership perspective, whether we sneak into finals probably doesn't matter other than from a draft pick number.

I'm hoping to see the following changes v the Roos and for the remainder of the year:

- Fullarton to come in as our ruck/forward and Turner out. Let JVR focus on being the full forward and what a player he will be from next year onwards. Enough with rucking him other than as the forward ruck like a Tom Hawkins.

- Trac is obviously injured so time to play the Kolt through the middle for the remainder of the year to get him ready for 2025

- Petty to go back to the backline to either up his trade value if he wants to leave, or get him ready for 2025 and the coming years. He's not a good forward.

- Move Rivers to the midfield and see if AMW can make it at half back

- Brown should maybe retire mid-season to enable Jefferson, Verrall and Kentfield to be the main talls at Casey for the remainder of the year so their development isn't stunted. I would keep Brown at the club though to help with the forward line coaching, as god knows we need it!

In regards to the off-season, we will likely have a top 10 pick which will enable us to pick another high class midfielder. Knowing the way we operate we will also probably try trade up for another top 20 pick as well.

We need to go very very hard at some ready made, HIGH QUALITY players in the age bracket of 23-25. We will have the salary cap space with all of our delisting/retirements, so using free agency and future picks will be key. And please for the love of god find some quick, high pressure players for our forward line. Chandler just isn't able to do it.

2024 could be a blessing in disguise if we can get our off-season right and get more out of our young players next year. Oh and Clarry please get a full pre-season into you and come back a man with a point to prove.

Edited June 11 by DistrACTION Jackson

[SFebes 4,884]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/06/11/ive-never-been-more-disappointed-melbourne-great-rips-into-former-club/?
 

[Demonsone 2,036]

Blow torch needs to be put on Goodwin game plan his coaches & recruiters, what’s occurred  since our premiership is poor, what they have brought in player wise , With questionable off field issues player from the Dogs and the quality of Shache, billing’s, Fullerton , Mccadam (too soo to say) Grundy disaster, our mids getting smashed, to Oliver as why he was allowed to play in the seniors so quick instead of earning his spot which sets culture 

[Demonsone 2,036]

3 minutes ago, SFebes said:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/06/11/ive-never-been-more-disappointed-melbourne-great-rips-into-former-club/?
 

Spot on Schwartz what’s occurred lays at the feet of Goody & the coaches a complete balls up if blowing away another flag, they are cooked, make the changes or we will just become irrelevant again 

[Davos 851]

We can bounce back to contention next season, but we won't without making some considered changes. 

Sacking Goodwin isn't the answer - 3 top 4 seasons in a row means he's earned the right to attempt a turnaround. 

I'd start by reverting to our method of the past 3 seasons. We built the team to play a heavily contested and defensive style of football, not to move the ball quickly via slick (skilled) ball movement. We aren't Pep Guardiola's Barcelona or Manchester City, but we can be any of Jose Mourinho's title winning teams at their peak. 

You'd hope Clarry can find his mojo again with a full pre-season - he's clearly out of shape at the minute and not playing with any confidence (like most of the team).

Can't see how we continue with the same coaching group. From the outside looking in, it seems the players are tired of the same voices and some fresh ideas are required. Although I'm a fan of Choco, he's a big personality and can be overbearing. As has been discussed, Stafford seems to be a "good bloke" hire - the forward line constantly underperforms, even without elite personel to work with. 

We have to change the way we recruit via FA and trade. Although I understand the thought process behind pursuing AFL proven players for mid draft picks (Hunter, Billings, Fullarton, Schache, Dunstan), I think it's pretty clear now that we'd be better off taking the kids and using the cap space currently spent on bang average depth pieces to throw our hat in the ring for higher quality free agents and trade targets. We should be either getting a sure fire best 22 player, or we go to the draft and back our ability to develop over time. Of the players we've been linked to, I don't mind the noise around Josh Battle but Angwin seems extremely mid. 

Lastly, you would hope this is the worst our forwardline will ever look. Jefferson should offer more than Disco (and this season's version of Petty) next year, and JVR will have another pre-season under his belt. I can see a world where Petty becomes a competent forward again a year removed from his foot injury, or you could swing him back to the backline and get the premiership winning band back together (if he's still around). 

This season is a write off, but I'm not buying the "window closed" noise. Yet. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

6 minutes ago, SFebes said:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/06/11/ive-never-been-more-disappointed-melbourne-great-rips-into-former-club/?
 

Can’t argue with any of that….

[The Stigga 1,094]

Everyone on the trade table for mine.

Need to get as many early picks as possible before Tassie come in.

It was a fun ride while it lasted.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,664]

5 minutes ago, The Stigga said:

Everyone on the trade table for mine.

Need to get as many early picks as possible before Tassie come in.

It was a fun ride while it lasted.

Great idea…. Let’s go back to 2012 hey? 🙄

[BDA 22,735]

Schwarz didn’t hold back. Not sure there’s value in a club great coming out and swinging at the coaches like that. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

19 minutes ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

It's quite obvious that the 2024 season is done from a premiership perspective, whether we sneak into finals probably doesn't matter other than from a draft pick number.

I'm hoping to see the following changes v the Roos and for the remainder of the year:

- Fullarton to come in as our ruck/forward and Turner out. Let JVR focus on being the full forward and what a player he will be from next year onwards. Enough with rucking him other than as the forward ruck like a Tom Hawkins.

- Trac is obviously injured so time to play the Kolt through the middle for the remainder of the year to get him ready for 2025

- Petty to go back to the backline to either up his trade value if he wants to leave, or get him ready for 2025 and the coming years. He's not a good forward.

- Move Rivers to the midfield and see if AMW can make it at half back

- Brown should maybe retire mid-season to enable Jefferson, Verrall and Kentfield to be the main talls at Casey for the remainder of the year so their development isn't stunted. I would keep Brown at the club though to help with the forward line coaching, as god knows we need it!

In regards to the off-season, we will likely have a top 10 pick which will enable us to pick another high class midfielder. Knowing the way we operate we will also probably try trade up for another top 20 pick as well.

We need to go very very hard at some ready made, HIGH QUALITY players in the age bracket of 23-25. We will have the salary cap space with all of our delisting/retirements, so using free agency and future picks will be key. And please for the love of god find some quick, high pressure players for our forward line. Chandler just isn't able to do it.

2024 could be a blessing in disguise if we can get our off-season right and get more out of our young players next year. Oh and Clarry please get a full pre-season into you and come back a man with a point to prove.

Agree it’s a mini rebuild, but I think it’s a 2-3 year mini rebuild not a 1 year reset. We have 3 years worth of this and if you look at the 2019 season it took us 2 years to have a tilt at the flag. It feels a little more significant now then it did in 2019 but that’s just my view.

[The Stigga 1,094]

3 minutes ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

Great idea…. Let’s go back to 2012 hey? 🙄

Ok, lets bring in the same blokes next time that we omitted yesterday

That'll do it.

Edited June 11 by The Stigga

[Jaded No More 68,867]

12 minutes ago, The Stigga said:

Everyone on the trade table for mine.

Need to get as many early picks as possible before Tassie come in.

It was a fun ride while it lasted.

Ridiculous over reaction.

You're trading Trac, Lever, Gawn, Fritta and Kosi are you?

Let's rip the guts out of the team, and just bottom out again and go for draft picks, because that worked out so well for literally every club that's done it.

We still have a good nucleolus, but we need to bring in some key players to plug obvious holes. That's not the easiest thing to get right, but it can be done. We did it in 2018/2019, and went on to win a flag in 2021.

 

[JJJ 1,220]

It’s a pretty sad state of affairs. A lot of Dees supporters have, quite vocally, called out the lack of adaptation of our game plan. Our lack of youth pushing through.

Ive been at functions where footy dept types and board members, arrogant and dismissive, have pushed back on the above by stating that our game plan is fine and successful clubs can’t develop youth due to competing priorities. 
 

Now we find ourselves with an unbalanced list regarding age profile and position and a game plan that is considered legacy.

If you move aside the top liners such as Lever, Petracca, Gawn etc and look at the list of U23 who have shown they have a future, it doesn’t read well.

Backs: McVee Bowey Rivers Howes

On ballers: Windsor and maybe Woewodin…

Forwards: Pickett, Van Rooyen 

That might be the worst group in the AFL or at least the shallowest in terms of number.

We still have a couple who are yet to play or haven’t had enough exposure.

Backs: AMW, Turner, Adams 

Mids: K.Brown, Verrall, Laurie

Forwards: Sestan, Tholstrup, Kentfield, Jefferson

Again, not a great looking crop of talent.

I heard the club is very high on Sestan, Tholstrup, K.Brown & Verrall so I’ll give them a pass when creating a team below:

Howes, May, Bowey 

Rivers, Lever, Salem

Windsor, Viney, Langdon

Tholstrup, McDonald, Pickett

Sestan, Van Rooyen, Fritsch

Gawn, McVee, Oliver

ANB, Tomlinson, Chandler, K. Brown

Laurie, Jefferson, Sparrow, Woewodin, Turner, AMW

Injured or requiring a reset:  Petracca McAdam Petty

The rationale is to choose players with upside for next year and need some time mixed with senior players who are proven and set the right example to the young guys. We should be rotating young players. We need depth next year otherwise in 2026 we’ll have no May, Gawn, Viney and nothing to show for it in 2025.

(I put T-Mac up forward as it kills me ti see JVR playing without another senior tall to help him out. FFS, he is our only tall asset forward of centre, don’t kill him)

[The Stigga 1,094]

4 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Ridiculous over reaction.

You're trading Trac, Lever, Gawn, Fritta and Kosi are you?

Let's rip the guts out of the team, and just bottom out again and go for draft picks, because that worked out so well for literally every club that's done it.

We still have a good nucleolus, but we need to bring in some key players to plug obvious holes. That's not the easiest thing to get right, but it can be done. We did it in 2018/2019, and went on to win a flag in 2021.

 

 

How do you bring in 'key players'?

Free agency? - The number of quality players has dwindled significantly over the past couple of months, nearly nothing left.

Trade good draft picks? - Don't have that many, will we empty the draft bank for the next two years to get such players in?

I think many vastly overrate our list, especially with the fact that that game has evolved to a point that just being great at 'contested' and 'defensive' footy ain't going to cut it anymore...in fact the shift is such that reliance on these style/s is rather archaic.

[JJJ 1,220]

Free agency this year might get us a solid player but we need to be aggressively looking at “pre-agents” like LDU from North. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

2 hours ago, drysdale demon said:

Stay calm for a start, there is no doubt changes will occur at years end in both footy dept. personal and playing list.

I, for one would have held Grundy to his contract, also would have tried to coax BBB into retirement.

Yes, but what is it you disagree with and think is humorous?

I stand by everything i have said. The last 3 years have been a very poor Failure, with the Club not addressing issues, we all know exist. 
Too many people stay Calm at the MFC whilst others Clubs just carve us up…

Edited June 11 by Sir Why You Little

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

2 minutes ago, The Stigga said:

 

How do you bring in 'key players'?

Free agency? - The number of quality players has dwindled significantly over the past couple of months, nearly nothing left.

Trade good draft picks? - Don't have that many, will we empty the draft bank for the next two years to get such players in?

I think many vastly overrate our list, especially with the fact that that game has evolved to a point that just being great at 'contested' and 'defensive' footy ain't going to cut it anymore...in fact the shift is such that reliance on these style/s is rather archaic.

100% agree. We banked on contest and defence and the were the best at it. However, we won the premiership that year as a statistical anomaly in that our ability to generate score was mainly from stoppage. I think it’s happened 1 other time in the last 2 decades. 

Defending from stoppage is easy to curtail and the league adapted to our game plan and that’s why we haven’t really reaped the benefits - it was unsustainable . The turnover game which was the hallmark of Tigers and Hawks dynasties is what you want and I think we were good in 2021 but not top 4. 

Trying to extend this game plan is high risk and we would need to bring in another 2-3 readymades to have another tilt using this method. Get it wrong and not only would we have wasted this list, it would take a decade or more to fully recover. 
 

 

[BoBo 2,941]

21 minutes ago, BDA said:

Schwarz didn’t hold back. Not sure there’s value in a club great coming out and swinging at the coaches like that. 

I’d agree if the criticism was incorrect, premature or over the top but I think he’s pointing out things that everyone already knows and has been spoken about for more than 3 years (like Schwartz said). I’m happy that someone associated with the club is talking with some passion and representing the frustrations of the supporter base. 
 

I agree with you as a general rule though. I think in this instance it’s necessary. 

[Age 485]

Whilst I respect people's thoughts that winning a flag and top 4 in the previous 2 years should give Goodwin the right to stay and fix the problems, I am completely the other way. 

We lose the same way every single time, we have no forward line and I know this is a first world problem,  but even when we have won in the last few years, I doubt many of us would have been happy and excited with the win. When we were rubbish, we were consistently belted by the top teams, when we became a top team, I had hoped that we would give back some of these beltings but we very rarely ever did. 

A good coach will implement a plan that hopefully gets the best out of his players, ours has instead gone away from a plan that was at least somewhat working over the last few years to something that our list simply cannot do. 

For those reasons I cannot give him a pass to right things, he has to go. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

5 minutes ago, Age said:

Whilst I respect people's thoughts that winning a flag and top 4 in the previous 2 years should give Goodwin the right to stay and fix the problems, I am completely the other way. 

We lose the same way every single time, we have no forward line and I know this is a first world problem,  but even when we have won in the last few years, I doubt many of us would have been happy and excited with the win. When we were rubbish, we were consistently belted by the top teams, when we became a top team, I had hoped that we would give back some of these beltings but we very rarely ever did. 

A good coach will implement a plan that hopefully gets the best out of his players, ours has instead gone away from a plan that was at least somewhat working over the last few years to something that our list simply cannot do. 

For those reasons I cannot give him a pass to right things, he has to go. 

Why do people continue to think it’s a forward line issue? On paper, our forward line was better than the Pies. It’s our f50 connection and our ability to transition ball into f50 on turnover. It is that simple. Get it to f50 quickly and our forwards will beat most defences 1 on 1. JVR case and point. We are turnover merchants and panic with ball in hand bar 1 or 2 individuals. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

1 minute ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Why do people continue to think it’s a forward line issue? On paper, our forward line was better than the Pies. It’s our f50 connection and our ability to transition ball into f50 on turnover. It is that simple. Get it to f50 quickly and our forwards will beat most defences 1 on 1. JVR case and point. We are turnover merchants and panic with ball in hand bar 1 or 2 individuals. 

No. That’s too simple for a problem that is at least 3 Years old. 
The Forwards are just as much to blame