PREGAME: Rd 11 vs St. Kilda

[binman 44,824]

6 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

Well in 2022-23 we were flying along nicely at this time of the year before injuries and poor goalkicking cost us

We are still four months away from the business end of the year 

Its almost as if goody was not joking when he has repeatedly said our goal is to be playing our best footy come September or that the team who improves the most during the season are the ones contending at the pointy end of the season.

I mean, I guess he might have some evidence to support that supposition. Like the blues and swans last year.

And the lions too for that matter, who were 6-4 after 10 games and were flogged by thr hawks, who finished the season in 16th (and beat the pies in round 21), in round 10.

It's almost as if goody has done some analysis of why we went out of the finals in straight sets the last two years and what other clubs that have done well have done. 

[chook fowler 19,772]

5 minutes ago, binman said:

Its almost as if goody was not joking when he has repeatedly said our goal is to be playing our best footy come September or that the team who improves the most during the season are the ones contending at the pointy end of the season.

I mean, I guess he might have some evidence to support that supposition. Like the blues and swans last year.

And the lions too for that matter, who were 6-4 after 10 games and were flogged by thr hawks, who finished the season in 16th (and beat the pies in round 21), in round 10.

It's almost as if goody has done some analysis of why we went out of the finals in straight sets the last two years and what other clubs that have done well have done. 

I'm sure getting our asses kicked by MethCoast wasn't part of the grand plan

[titan_uranus 25,255]

12 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

The context to this quote is that he was arguing that we’ve tried playing a different way to 2022-23, it isn’t working well enough to win the flag, but it’s not too late for us to adjust back to something which more closely resembles 202-23, which he expects we will do. 

[picket fence 18,184]

11 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

You have had your head in the sand for the last year and a half. He's not the player he once was. Laurie has copped it unnecessarily when he hasn't been given a chance to cement his spot.

Yeah maybe, but whilst I will concede Clarry is not operating at the same "Stellar" levels as previous he STILL is playing very good footy, not exceptional but still very good! I'll double down on Laurie and say he won't cut it. FWIW I rate Woey as the big improver as he travels the journey!

[picket fence 18,184]

11 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Personally if we don't win a final it will be a failure of a year and I'll be calling for Goodwin's head.

Now Werridee...THIS I CAN AGREE WITH!! 😄

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,728]

I don't think Tomlinson is suited in the role to cover Lever, so would prefer we send Petty back there. I also wonder if we can get our forward line functioning without Petty, would that open the door to play May, Tmac, Lever and Petty in the same backline?

In any case I would like to see the following for this weekend:

Outs: Lever, Brown & Howes

Ins: Van Rooyen, Fullarton & Langdon

B:         McVee         May            Petty

HB:      Rivers          TMac          Bowey

C:        Langdon      Oliver          Windsor

HF:     Pickett         Fullarton      Neal-Bullen

F:       McAdam      JVR              Fritsch

R:       Gawn           Petracca       Viney

Int:     Sparrow      Woewodin     Chandler     Salem

Sub: Billings

If Bowey doesn't get up then Howes is in for him.

We need to reward form and Woey was easily in our better handful of players and can play half-back and wing. Howes has been pretty underwhelming of late and needs a spell in my mind.

Fullarton definitely hasn't been setting the world on fire at Casey, but we need to give him a crack given we have no other options and we know what Brown offers now.

[Fromgotowoewodin 1,606]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Its almost as if goody was not joking when he has repeatedly said our goal is to be playing our best footy come September or that the team who improves the most during the season are the ones contending at the pointy end of the season.

I mean, I guess he might have some evidence to support that supposition. Like the blues and swans last year.

And the lions too for that matter, who were 6-4 after 10 games and were flogged by thr hawks, who finished the season in 16th (and beat the pies in round 21), in round 10.

It's almost as if goody has done some analysis of why we went out of the finals in straight sets the last two years and what other clubs that have done well have done. 

It’s nice in theory, but we’ve held similar theories the past 2 years when things have looked wobbly mid-year. 

We’re scoring less than the last three years, taking less marks i50, opponents are scoring about the same but taking more marks i50 (which will get worse over the next month without Lever) and for the first time in 4 years we’re losing i50s which with our forward line conversion isn’t great. 

Now trying the same thing over and over and getting the same result is not recommended so I acknowledge Goody and co are trying some different things, that might have us flying by September but I’m really only going to believe that when I see it. 

On the plus side we’re 6-4, we were 7-4 last year and turned that into 16-7 so all is not lost but we need to start winning imminently. 2-1 from the next 3 is required, no single game is a litmus test as you point out on the pod but 7-6 puts  the double chance out of reach I would think. 

[Ted Lasso 19,586]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Its almost as if goody was not joking when he has repeatedly said our goal is to be playing our best footy come September or that the team who improves the most during the season are the ones contending at the pointy end of the season.

I mean, I guess he might have some evidence to support that supposition. Like the blues and swans last year.

And the lions too for that matter, who were 6-4 after 10 games and were flogged by thr hawks, who finished the season in 16th (and beat the pies in round 21), in round 10.

It's almost as if goody has done some analysis of why we went out of the finals in straight sets the last two years and what other clubs that have done well have done. 

are you suggesting Simon Goodwin the AFL premiership coach might know more about what he's doing than some of the fans on Demonland!?! outrageous 

[binman 44,824]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

The context to this quote is that he was arguing that we’ve tried playing a different way to 2022-23, it isn’t working well enough to win the flag, but it’s not too late for us to adjust back to something which more closely resembles 202-23, which he expects we will do. 

I haven't listened to his slot yet (but will), but if that's what he said i wholeheartedly agree.

In fact it is basically the same thing I have posted on a number of occasions- ie implement a less bruising, less physically taxing method during the home and away season and transition back to our normal forward half model come finals  (which is basically what the pies did last year).

The key learning fron 2022 and 2023 is that playing the brutal model we have used since the start of 2020 is not sustainable for 23 rounds plus finals as evidenced by the contact and other injuries that decimated us come finals the last 2 seasons.

It's funny, many posters made that exact argument inthe last 2 seasons (ie an unstainable model for a fill season).

And they were proven right.

Anyone who made that argument should be well pleased that their advice has been heeded.

The downside to goody having done so is we are going to lose more games this home and away season than in the ladt three seasons.

Edited May 22, 2024 by binman

[Demon Dynasty 17,165]

4 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

@dpositive agreed. Goodwin does seem to have so much faith in the process that he doesnt employ taggers. 
 

its another reason (reason 4 I think) why we scratch our heads at Goodys lack of strategy.  He comments on how effective teams are on Trac or Clarry and having to adjust to put Trac forward (hardly amazing).  Why didn’t we tag Reid/Kelly like the pies did or tag Walsh.  Whilst we have midfield strength, it’s arrogance not to look to shutdown or restrict the opposition best mid.  

100% ... to not consider tags or coolers on the likes of Cripps, Walsh, DeGoey, ND, Butters, JHF & Reid is just pure coaching insanity of the highest order.

Goodwin is not alone either as the theory goes "you will upset the team defence".  Well so what.  If you don't you are more than likely going to lose anyway.

Edited May 22, 2024 by Demon Dynasty

[dazzledavey36 56,334]

3 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

Well in 2022-23 we were flying along nicely at this time of the year before injuries and poor goalkicking cost us

We are still four months away from the business end of the year 

Other clubs had their fair share injuries as well during finals. Every team are carrying banged up players through the finals.

The ongoing excuses that supporters continue to trot out.. 

The record speaks for itself. Our september record since 2021 is 0-4, there is no sugar coating this.

The immense pressure this club will have on its shoulders come september to avoid this hoodoo will huge and we don't deal with pressure and expectations well.

Based on what I've seen so far I've seen nothing to suggest we've approved from 2022-2023. The stats will back that up.

[Lexinator 1,931]

3 hours ago, chook fowler said:

I'm sure getting our asses kicked by MethCoast wasn't part of the grand plan

You mean MethCoke E-agles?

...Sorry.

[Bring-Back-Powell 15,548]

St Kilda do not have a single established player on their injury list, with B Crouch, Butler and Hunter Clark available this week.

Going to be a tough assignment despite St Kilda being out of form.

[Dee Viney Intervention 2,028]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Other clubs had their fair share injuries as well during finals. Every team are carrying banged up players through the finals.

The ongoing excuses that supporters continue to trot out.. 

The record speaks for itself. Our september record since 2021 is 0-4, there is no sugar coating this.

The immense pressure this club will have on its shoulders come september to avoid this hoodoo will huge and we don't deal with pressure and expectations well.

Based on what I've seen so far I've seen nothing to suggest we've approved from 2022-2023. The stats will back that up.

Agree with everything you have said Dazzler. Don’t worry about the stats, the naked eye tells you everything. That first half against Richmond was utter garbage. Couldn’t hit a handball under zero pressure against a bog ordinary side. Then that effort against West Coast.  Backline has been great and has saved us. Midfield has gone backwards and our forward line and mids to forward connection has been a construction zone for years. We have regressed this year. Be less pressure on us and I believe better chance of success if we finish bottom half of ladder and have to play a final away from the MCG which we are every chance to do. We have failed the test there over the last two years.  Unfortunately teams are going past us, not necessarily giving us windburn but I genuinely can’t see us challenging. Genuinely hope I am wrong there though.

I will always love the Melbourne Football Club that will never change.However I really struggle to enjoy watching our game style. I seriously question whether the players actually enjoy executing or attempting to execute it on a weekly basis. If it’s not fun to watch, is it fun to play.

Edited May 22, 2024 by Dee Viney Intervention

[spirit of norm smith 16,679]

27 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

St Kilda do not have a single established player on their injury list, with B Crouch, Butler and Hunter Clark available this week.

Going to be a tough assignment despite St Kilda being out of form.

Saints all full strength. At one stage they had 7 or 8 injured or unavailable of their best 22. Not this week !!! 

[spirit of norm smith 16,679]

1 hour ago, Demon Dynasty said:

100% ... to not consider tags or coolers on the likes of Cripps, Walsh, DeGoey, ND, Butters, JHF & Reid is just pure coaching insanity of the highest order.

Goodwin is not alone either as the theory goes "you will upset the team defence".  Well so what.  If you don't you are more than likely going to lose anyway.

Learnings ?? 

Memo to Goodwin.  Hill. Wanganeen-Milera, Bonner.  All used as the saints rebound quarterbacks. For me, time to put tag on Hill.  He can create and run and hit targets.  Under pressure that’s harder 

Memo to Goodwin.  Windhager or Ross will be used to tag Trac or indeed Oliver if Trac goes forward. Learn to beat the tag or bring others to help block or negate the tag.  
 

Memo to Goodwin.  Howard is their defensive marker.  Don’t just have players kick to him in a contest. Have him play deeper in our key forward.  Petty or JVR. 
 

Memo to Goodwin.  Owens is their wildcard forward who can kick 3/4 goals and get their momentum.  Ideally we’d have Lever or Hore type of defender on him.  Please not Tmcd !!! Maybe use Howes but he’d need to go a bit harder than last week and be more defensively physical. Zero tackles was another poor effort.  
 

[Fromgotowoewodin 1,606]

8 minutes ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

I will always love the Melbourne Football Club that will never change.However I really struggle to enjoy watching our game style. I seriously question whether the players actually enjoy executing or attempting to execute it on a weekly basis. If it’s not fun to watch, is it fun to play.

This is almost a bigger frustration for me than the lack of a second flag (ok it’s not almost but it is a big frustration). I really feel like I should’ve enjoyed the past 3 years more than I did.

I’m sure Hawks fans in the early 2010s, Geelong fans over the past far too long, Tigers fans up to 2020 must’ve had a more fun time than we have over our period of dominance.

I can’t work out if it’s the game style stifling a talented list or the game style is keeping a so-so list at the top of the ladder but I would’ve expected if we had 3 years in the top 4 that I could roll up to the G and see us dismantle teams and stomp on their bleeding bodies but it hasn’t felt like that at any point really, except the finals which I saw on TV - the ones I saw live felt like I was having my body stomped. 

[DeeSpencer 26,675]

It’s a lot to ask of a second gamer but what if we bring Kolt in and give him the Nas match up? He has a good tank, he’s a good tackler and he seems coachable.

I think our players could really rally around a young kid coming in and doing a team first job and doing it with a bit of passion, energy, mongrel even. We are in desperate need for some mongrel.

Let’s go small with Pickett, ANB, McAdam, Chandler, Kolt all forward at times and try to bring some hunt and aggression.

Let’s concede that we will be out-marked at times no matter what and embrace a proper aggressive physical pressure game. 

[Demonsone 2,056]

14 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

He played as a forward with GWS for a few years early on and never really established himself here.

I'm not adverse to the 'idea' Deevs but i reckon that experiment would need to be trialled via Casey for a good block of games first.

See how he fares and go from there.

A premiership team trialing defenders as fwds, is this a failure by our club to trade for gun fwds, understand they don’t grow on trees but the opportunity to have struck whilst the iron was hot & win another flag will be seen as a failure 

[Fat Tony 5,337]

4 hours ago, binman said:

I haven't listened to his slot yet (but will), but if that's what he said i wholeheartedly agree.

In fact it is basically the same thing I have posted on a number of occasions- ie implement a less bruising, less physically taxing method during the home and away season and transition back to our normal forward half model come finals  (which is basically what the pies did last year).

The key learning fron 2022 and 2023 is that playing the brutal model we have used since the start of 2020 is not sustainable for 23 rounds plus finals as evidenced by the contact and other injuries that decimated us come finals the last 2 seasons.

It's funny, many posters made that exact argument inthe last 2 seasons (ie an unstainable model for a fill season).

And they were proven right.

Anyone who made that argument should be well pleased that their advice has been heeded.

The downside to goody having done so is we are going to lose more games this home and away season than in the ladt three seasons.

Hoyne argues that we need to go back to kicking down the line and get more numbers to the contest. He basically states that the losses in finals were due to bad goal kicking and not due to our method. (I agree with this, although we could definitely be more efficient with some of our entries when playing a territory game.)

Hoyne did not elaborate much on how we are not defending deeper. IMO this has been partly personnel driven and we struggle to put on a decent press with Brown in the side.

Part of the way we are playing at the moment might be to protect Max. But I think a lot of it is our top midfielders have dropped a peg and aren't playing like elite top line AFL players anymore.

[monoccular 17,760]

10 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Yep and we also (STILL) don't deal with expectations very well it seems.

I'd love to see the W L ratio in games where we are odds on fav to win like Sunday.

I doubt it would be very pretty.  There's still a problem in the upstairs dept alot of the time.

That shows in the way we open matches too.  Far too meek and mild.  There's no manic white line fever across the board of late with this group bar a few usual exceptions that comtinue to fly the flag.

The hunger for the attack and manic pressure for four quarters (across the board) is no longer happening for whatever reason.

A fair amount of complacency appears to have set in to this group so far this season which is a real worry.

Possibly the lack of depth on this list and pressure for positions in general?

Re-signing the likes of Schache, the failed Grundy experiment i(nstead of going after another quality mid) and extending fairly lengthy contracts to those who are barely just fringe players couldn't have helped surely.

To be fair we were cruelled with late season injuries in 2023 which derailed our finals campaign.

However the ruthlessness Goodwin preached (that was needed throughout the club) at the end of 2020 and became apparent through 21 and much of 22 & 23 doesn't feel all that apparent in 2024 for mine.  Not across the board anyway and for four quarters anyway.

Thanks DD - agree with most of that summation

9 hours ago, Kent said:

We have needed another tall for years the club seems incapable of finding one   Grundy should have worked for us 

Egos and low IQs got in the way If Schacke Fullerton Jefferson and Tomlinson are no good get them out and start  again 

Verrel is not the answer or he would be played its a complete mess 

Verrall is a second year tall ruck - Max I don't think (yes, also injured) a go for 3 years or so and he has gone OK.  

Throwing him to the wolves is not necessarily a great idea (though I did think a bench role against an "easy beat" like WCE 😮 may have been worth a try)

[titan_uranus 25,255]

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

Hoyne argues that we need to go back to kicking down the line and get more numbers to the contest. He basically states that the losses in finals were due to bad goal kicking and not due to our method. (I agree with this, although we could definitely be more efficient with some of our entries when playing a territory game.)

Hoyne did not elaborate much on how we are not defending deeper. IMO this has been partly personnel driven and we struggle to put on a decent press with Brown in the side.

Part of the way we are playing at the moment might be to protect Max. But I think a lot of it is our top midfielders have dropped a peg and aren't playing like elite top line AFL players anymore.

That's right - he looks at xScore to argue that we should have beaten Brisbane in 22 and both Collingwood and Carlton in 23, but botched our goal-kicking relative to our opponent. He therefore says that what we were doing in those years was good enough, and is better than what we're doing right now.

The difference between him and @binman is that he proceeded on the basis that we have changed how we play because we want to play differently in 2024. Binman, I believe, argues that we've changed how we play in early 2024, but not necessarily all of it, as a fitness/key player protection measure, and that we have planned or will plan to return to the 22-23 method later in the year. 

And I fully agree with you that our midfielders are down on previous years, which is something I don't think Binman agrees with.

[Pennant St Dee 13,452]

8 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The context to this quote is that he was arguing that we’ve tried playing a different way to 2022-23, it isn’t working well enough to win the flag, but it’s not too late for us to adjust back to something which more closely resembles 202-23, which he expects we will do. 

Yes but the full quote doesn’t have the same effect for the narrative.

I don’t know if we’ll fully go back, I think a few tweaks because we have clearly changed things up a little and I would expect a compromise of sought between relying on slingshot from turnover and just brutality at the stoppage and locking it inside F50

Carlton changed mid last season to going back to being brutal contested beasts. 

[binman 44,824]

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Yes but the full quote doesn’t have the same effect for the narrative.

I don’t know if we’ll fully go back, I think a few tweaks because we have clearly changed things up a little and I would expect a compromise of sought between relying on slingshot from turnover and just brutality at the stoppage and locking it inside F50

Carlton changed mid last season to going back to being brutal contested beasts. 

Yes, that's my take.

We will largely revert to 'our' tried and true method, but hopefully retaining some of the elements of our current method, eg hitting some high risk corridor kicks, using the lions style 20 metre foreard kicks on rhe 45, and some run and dare off the hb. 

Those elements are important I think in terms of reducing the frequency of rentries back into a crazy crowded inside 50 (which had historically been a big driver of our low score to inside 50 ratio - or inefficiency as it is oft described)

Which, as much as I hate to say it, almost 100% describes the method the pies used come finals.

On the quote, it was no doubt deliberatety used out of context in the text to rile dees fans and create a false narrative about where we are at.

Instructive it was then quoted on here.

[M_9 2,216]

Leigh Montagna pulling Saints forward structure to pieces . Ranked last in most categories. 
Petty playing back (if it happens) will have a field day.