Elite decision makers

[rjay 24,928]

1 hour ago, JimmyGadson said:

It's hilarious listening to one poster talk about how well our forwardline functioned when we had both Fritsch and Petty out at one stage and then another use the excuse that we've had no forwards this year because of injury.

Which one is it?!

Outside of demonlanddddd, it is common knowledge that we butcher the footy far more than a team with this level of 'talent' should.

It's an unbalanced list, it needs addressing and so does our method.

It's pretty simple 'Jimmy' even for you.

2 posters have different views.

What point are you trying to make.

You have just given 2 diametrically opposed views in this post alone. You alone not 2 different posters.

What is it...do we need more talent as you've been banging on about or as you've stated here should the talent we have be able to use the ball better.

I would think it is a mix of a few things...one with better forward talent our connection will improve and two, it's always good to have more talented players with good kicking and decision making skills, particularly if they can get the ball to use them.

A good penetrating kick on the wing would never go astray as long as they cover the ground forward and back as is our game style mens and women's...

[Roost it far 8,276]

52 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

How could I know if the stat is bad ... it never gets used! You referenced the only time I've seen it where it was still shown out of context.

I am someone who cares about the data and I try to use it whenever I can to tell a story about whatever it is I'm posting about. I try to use good sources and I don't know if this is a good source because there's no context around it with which to judge it. You said that we have 3 of the 10 worst kicks int he AFL. It's up to you to prove that this is the case and I don't know if the stat that you provided does that. 

There are several stats that could indicate poor disposal or poor decision making. For instance, you could talk about average turnovers as being a stat for this, which has Jack Viney as the 2nd worst in the league and Clayton Oliver as the 4th worst. That make sense to you ..... but the context is that Tim Kelly was the worst and Errol Gulden was 3rd worst, so it doesn't really pass the sniff test as a measure. 

Or you could use Disposal Efficiency %, which would make sense. However looking at the context for this data shows that all those with the lowest DE% are forwards and all of the highest are defenders (Melksham 3rd worst 50.5% vs Dougal Howard 4th best 88.8%), so that's clearly not a good measure as it's biased against forwards and towards defenders.

The stats that you use to measure something are important and each of them tells a different story. The AFL Kick Ratings stat is seldom used or reported upon, and when it is it done so without context, which makes it very difficult to trust as a proper measure. If we had more information about it and more data from it then perhaps it could mean something but it's difficult to trust as it is.

Dude, regardless of how kicking is measured it’s if no surprise that our mids rank poorly on any kicking scale. It’s laughable to suggest as others have that their poor kicking is in part due to our forward line. Trac, Oliver and Gawn barely even look where they’re going to kick so blaming the forwards is just wrong. 

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

So Jimmy let's just agree that Oliver, Petracca and Gawn aren't very good kicks,  I can live with that.

What is your suggestion as to how we proceed.  How do we deal with their kicking issues, how do we get better?  What are the main areas of need?  Are you all in for a gun forward and if so who?  What would you pay for him? 

 

[adonski 12,144]

3 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

 

Part I don't get is even if you believe it's just the forwards and our midfield is fine. Surely there has to be some doubt? None whatsoever? Really?

We've tried different forward set ups, kinda worked, kinda didnt??  Why didn't we even try some different midfield set ups by putting in for a quarter some better users. Put Clarry forward for a quarter to see if his generational ground ball game helped create chances.   Hmm maybe? Is our system sooo fragile that it would have fallen apart.  You're trying to make an AA ruckman a forward, but you cant have Salem, Bowey or McVee take a centre bounce and get on the end of a Trac forward handball. Lol. 

Carry on, same input, same result in the likely result here 

 

Sooo astute as usual 

[old55 23,576]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

It must be a nice bubble that you're in Old!

We're not going to change our game style approach under Simon Goodwin, although at times during the year we did use the ball more creatively going inside 50 - e.g. the Carlton SF was better than the Collingwood QF.  But it's still within the same approach of a contest/territory game and weight of numbers of i50s.  And we're not going to trade Max, Clarrie, Christian or Jack for "better users".

Given all that, I'm in the "we need better finishers forward" camp, and as @rpfc predicts - if we have them then delivery will also improve as a result - I think that was borne out when Petty was operating at his peak. It's the least disruptive change and we weren't far off.

McAdam sounds like a good acquisition.  Petty, JVR, Fritsch McAdam, Kossie, and we all know ANB will be in there. Another elite finishing small would be good but they're hard to acquire, maybe adding McAdam and getting full seasons out of Petty and Fritsch is enough.

We can get some organic improvement too.  I think Chandler is a good player who ran out of steam as the season progressed, maybe with another pre-season he can improve further.  Laurie has some very nice skills and vision, and if he can get really fit over summer, like McVee did, then he could be a contributor. AMW shows some promise at Casey. I think Woey is a bit vanilla for the forward role and fits in the midfield depth roster in place of JJ and Harmes.  If I was Spargo I'd be looking at my options elsewhere.

Edited September 25, 2023 by old55

[DeeSpencer 25,711]

2 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

So Jimmy let's just agree that Oliver, Petracca and Gawn aren't very good kicks,  I can live with that.

What is your suggestion as to how we proceed.  How do we deal with their kicking issues, how do we get better?  What are the main areas of need?  Are you all in for a gun forward and if so who?  What would you pay for him? 

 

Lack of forwards and lack of backline run play a major role, but at the end of the day our mids are poor kicks and we need them to be at least borderline ok. Not a giant improvement but noticeable change.
 

1. Gawn: kick less. He simply has to play to his strengths and weaknesses and not try to be the hero. He can dish off handballs like most rucks do.

2. Viney: time to make him a heavy defensive half forward rotation player. Not quite Taylor Adams but close to 50/50 forward mid assuming we have our best side to pick from.

3. Petracca: Tracc’s always going to be risk reward. Again, more half forward. Big targets will help him. Keep grinding away at the goal kicking at hope it changes.

4. Clarry. The biggest challenge because we need him playing on ball and getting 30+. A left foot would be a good idea. Getting more run in to the side so he’s got handball options and can get it on the run himself would both help. Do some technique work with Choco. Stay healthy, don’t end up in hospital mid year!

The important question is who’s going to fill the midfield minutes. Obviously can’t just be Gus, Sparrow (or shudder even Harmes if he stays), that’s lateral at best. I’d use all of Salem, Rivers, ANB, Pickett, Laurie, a taste of Bowey, McVee, Howes, some Woey, some Chandler over summer plus draft picks. Give everyone a run and see how it goes.

[rpfc 28,433]

2 hours ago, old55 said:

We're not going to change our game style approach under Simon Goodwin, although at times during the year we did use the ball more creatively going inside 50 - e.g. the Carlton SF was better than the Collingwood QF.  But it's still within the same approach of a contest/territory game and weight of numbers of i50s.  And we're not going to trade Max, Clarrie, Christian or Jack for "better users".

Given all that, I'm in the "we need better finishers forward" camp, and as @rpfc predicts - if we have them then delivery will also improve as a result - I think that was borne out when Petty was operating at his peak. It's the least disruptive change and we weren't far off.

McAdam sounds like a good acquisition.  Petty, JVR, Fritsch McAdam, Kossie, and we all know ANB will be in there. Another elite finishing small would be good but they're hard to acquire, maybe adding McAdam and getting full seasons out of Petty and Fritsch is enough.

We can get some organic improvement too.  I think Chandler is a good player who ran out of steam as the season progressed, maybe with another pre-season he can improve further.  Laurie has some very nice skills and vision, and if he can get really fit over summer, like McVee did, then he could be a contributor. AMW shows some promise at Casey. I think Woey is a bit vanilla for the forward role and fits in the midfield depth roster in place of JJ and Harmes.  If I was Spargo I'd be looking at my options elsewhere.

Yeah, you play to your cattle - every FD knows their players best - our fwd line need healthy, ‘forwards’, in their prime, and in form. A lot of that will come from Kozzie getting older and wiser, Petty and Fritsch coming back, and hopefully Chandler showing more consistency and aggression with the footy (love the fact he cares about the zone, but mate, pointing doesn’t get you kicks). I would love another tall and a small but it’s a hard game. JVR is about to enter his third season as a KPF possible back up ruck - he is gravy - we can’t expect he holds up a post in flag contending team.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

10 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

How could I know if the stat is bad ... it never gets used! You referenced the only time I've seen it where it was still shown out of context.

I am someone who cares about the data and I try to use it whenever I can to tell a story about whatever it is I'm posting about. I try to use good sources and I don't know if this is a good source because there's no context around it with which to judge it. You said that we have 3 of the 10 worst kicks int he AFL. It's up to you to prove that this is the case and I don't know if the stat that you provided does that. 

There are several stats that could indicate poor disposal or poor decision making. For instance, you could talk about average turnovers as being a stat for this, which has Jack Viney as the 2nd worst in the league and Clayton Oliver as the 4th worst. That make sense to you ..... but the context is that Tim Kelly was the worst and Errol Gulden was 3rd worst, so it doesn't really pass the sniff test as a measure. 

Or you could use Disposal Efficiency %, which would make sense. However looking at the context for this data shows that all those with the lowest DE% are forwards and all of the highest are defenders (Melksham 3rd worst 50.5% vs Dougal Howard 4th best 88.8%), so that's clearly not a good measure as it's biased against forwards and towards defenders.

The stats that you use to measure something are important and each of them tells a different story. The AFL Kick Ratings stat is seldom used or reported upon, and when it is it done so without context, which makes it very difficult to trust as a proper measure. If we had more information about it and more data from it then perhaps it could mean something but it's difficult to trust as it is.

All reasonable and fair points. 

At what stage do your eyes tell you the broader picture for all you stat lovers? 

For instance, the Gulden one fascinates me. I'd love to know how many of his kicks (when under no pressure) going inside 50 result in either marks/shots in goal compared to Viney, Petracca, Oliver. I mean, my eyes alone tell me he is far better by foot than any of our mids. Clearly that first stat must be a retention post kick stat that takes all kicks into account. 

I'm happy for others to dig that up. 

Regardless of any of that, what do your eyes tell you axis? 

When watching Viney, Oliver and Petracca streaming forward under little pressure, how do you think they fair? And do you think they should be giving us better return? 

Because I do and many other Melbourne supporters do. Why is that?

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

9 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

So Jimmy let's just agree that Oliver, Petracca and Gawn aren't very good kicks,  I can live with that.

What is your suggestion as to how we proceed.  How do we deal with their kicking issues, how do we get better?  What are the main areas of need?  Are you all in for a gun forward and if so who?  What would you pay for him? 

 

My suggestions are multi-faceted. 

I think that Goodwin instructs us to play a style and a method that suits our list's skill set predominantly which lends itself to issues like ball movement, use and efficiency. 

He puts a premium on playing forward-half football which also plays to our defensive strength given our elite intercept players. This is all well and good if you're turning that forward half, contest dominance into scoreboard dominance. But how many losses would you say come from an inability to turn that dominance into a score? And for how long has it been costing us? 

It's just not working, no matter how many times you hear his tiresome "we need to get better/we need to connect better forward of centre" post match talk. 

I actually don't think it matters what kind of key forward we have if we continue to play the way we do. Which is why I'm concerned about throwing the farm at a big name forward if we continue to play the way we are. All that is important to Goody with this plan is an ability to contest in the air and bring ball to ground. Because we don't put a premium on hitting leads and it seems we don't even like leading up. When I watch our ball movement in free play the majority of the time, we are completely conditioned to move the ball in a way that gives us the best chance to keep the ball locked in our forward half at the cost of actually getting a real look at goal. To keep defensive structural integrity yeh yeh. Fritsch leads toward goal to often, Melksham does and T Mac does. Deep entries to lock it in yeh? But I ask again, at what cost?

At the cost of losing big games and  big moments it seems. 

No longer can you lot use the 21' flag as proof of our impenetrable game-plan. Because as I've said so many times, our losses during h/a season 21 were all replicas of the losses last year and this year. Yes we're hard to play against. But top teams know how to beat us. Yes we have a lot going for us. But Goodwin has been too stubborn and put all his eggs in. 

I disagree with the notion that we've made significant change. Even if the likes of DeeSpencer brings his reasons. It clearly hasn't been meaningful or significant given the way we lose games is identical to that of three years ago.  

Areas of change need to be first personnel and then plan.  

1 x midfield addition (draft/positional) 

1 x half forward addition (be that a positional change or trade/draft) 

1x specialist forward pocket 

The midfielders that consistently kill us are the ones we're missing. Kelly, Gulden, Walsh, Merret, Daicos. 

We just don't possess an outside  midfielder who has the capacity to break lines, hold space at a contest and consistently use the ball. Langdon is not that because he is a poor kick. Another double-edged sword. He is great for maintaining defensive structural integrity. But he also contributes to the ball flying back the other way due to his turnover rate. 

For me, McKertcher is a must from this draft for reasons I've already outline. He would free up one of Salem or Bowey to make a move forward of centre and play a Daicos quarter back role in his first year with some pinch hitting midfield minutes. Salem needs the pre-season of his life and he could be utelised in a number of ways at half forward but his biggest asset coming to us was his leg. And we need it forward of centre. 

I'd get Watson in who is simply a finisher and class user. And given the way we play, you can never have enough class finishes. He can play half forward or pocket and it also would allow picket to play further midfield minutes which I think is also a must next year given his creativity in congestion, vision, ball use. 

Maybe I went overboard with the key forward comment. I just don't see it as a pressing need given the way Goody likes to play. 

I think there's just got to be a few additions to this side in the right spots including a new move for Salem and a bit more licence for those with the footskills to work angles and go for their kicks. Goodwin needs to release the shackles a bit for those players who thrive with ball in hand. That is not Oliver, Viney and even Petracca. They need to know their limitations but also get better at kicking to the advantage of a forward. That needs to be drilled into them in the off-season. Kick to the advantage of. They're never going to be consistently hitting targets, it's just not them.

We're not far off. 

It just does my absolute nut in that we haven't addressed this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rjay 24,928]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

No longer can you lot use the 21' flag as proof of our impenetrable game-plan.

I haven't seen anyone talk of impenetrable game plans & I don't know who "you lot" are but apart from that thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts. 

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I think that Goodwin instructs us to play a style and a method that suits our list's skill set predominantly which lends itself to issues like ball movement, use and efficiency. 

 

I think that's correct & probably the right way to go about it. He needs to maximise what he has.

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

actually don't think it matters what kind of key forward we have if we continue to play the way we do. Which is why I'm concerned about throwing the farm at a big name forward if we continue to play the way we are. All that is important to Goody with this plan is an ability to contest in the air and bring ball to ground. Because we don't put a premium on hitting leads and it seems we don't even like leading up. When I watch our ball movement in free play the majority of the time, we are completely conditioned to move the ball in a way that gives us the best chance to keep the ball locked in our forward half at the cost of actually getting a real look at goal. To keep defensive structural integrity yeh yeh. Fritsch leads toward goal to often, Melksham does and T Mac does. Deep entries to lock it in yeh? But I ask again, at what cost?

I wouldn't sell the farm either...

I think when we had Petty forward we did adjust the way we played & started hitting up leads...we were prepared to give up a few goals the other way.

Adding some class forward of centre has got to be a priority & looks like it is with the McAdam move coming early in the trade cycle.

Scott Lucas believes better forwards create better disposal from further up the ground. They read the play better & connect better. I think he is right & if we fix this we go a long way to improving a lot of our game.

It doesn't mean I don't think we could do with better ball users up the ground & even use our current players in more damaging areas like you suggest with Salem.

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

But top teams know how to beat us.

Not so sure on this point...I think this is probably more true of last season. if we look at the 2 finals, Brayshaw doesn't get taken out early in the first I reckon we win and are in a GF this weekend...but unfortunately we will never know.

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

For me, McKertcher is a must from this draft for reasons I've already outline. He would free up one of Salem or Bowey to make a move forward of centre and play a Daicos quarter back role in his first year with some pinch hitting midfield minutes. Salem needs the pre-season of his life and he could be utelised in a number of ways at half forward but his biggest asset coming to us was his leg. And we need it forward of centre. 

I'd get Watson in who is simply a finisher and class user. And given the way we play, you can never have enough class finishes. He can play half forward or pocket and it also would allow picket to play further midfield minutes which I think is also a must next year given his creativity in congestion, vision, ball use. 

...both these players might be gone by our picks but I guess we wait & see if we can trade up. Not sure how we can get both though. Sanders might be available & on highlights looks a good decision maker & ball user.

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I think there's just got to be a few additions to this side in the right spots including a new move for Salem and a bit more licence for those with the footskills to work angles and go for their kicks. Goodwin needs to release the shackles a bit for those players who thrive with ball in hand. That is not Oliver, Viney and even Petracca. They need to know their limitations but also get better at kicking to the advantage of a forward. That needs to be drilled into them in the off-season. Kick to the advantage of. They're never going to be consistently hitting targets, it's just not them.

We're not far off. 

It just does my absolute nut in that we haven't addressed this. 

I agree with most of this...but I think you've also answered some of why Goody hasn't released the shackles. He's trying to maximise what he has & for a lot of the season didn't have a fit Fritsch, Tommy & BBB were shot, the Grundy experiment had failed and the only KPF we had was a kid (in JVR's own words, he's not a lead up forward).

I think we will kick more to advantage when we have the right players to take advantage...

So, we're in a good & unique position to go to trade & draft. We should address some of the issues and see a bit more freedom going forward.

Don't think for a minute that I'm not disappointed with where we finished. My rationalisation is just different. I think luck played a big part in the end. Even that Carlton touched goal...a wrong decision which would have seen us finish in 2nd place. Injuries to Petty & Melk, Brayshaw getting taken out, Fritsch not at 100%, Maxie and his big toe etc.

Also don't think I can't see the holes in the list (I'm sure Goody & the FD can see them) but when you're in the top part of the table it can be hard to address them unless you find a gun player ready to move like Geelong have with Danger & Cameron.

This trade/draft period is going to be fascinating for us but in the meantime I'm going to enjoy our AFLW team. 

 

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

My suggestions are multi-faceted. 

I think that Goodwin instructs us to play a style and a method that suits our list's skill set predominantly which lends itself to issues like ball movement, use and efficiency. 

He puts a premium on playing forward-half football which also plays to our defensive strength given our elite intercept players. This is all well and good if you're turning that forward half, contest dominance into scoreboard dominance. But how many losses would you say come from an inability to turn that dominance into a score? And for how long has it been costing us? 

It's just not working, no matter how many times you hear his tiresome "we need to get better/we need to connect better forward of centre" post match talk. 

I actually don't think it matters what kind of key forward we have if we continue to play the way we do. Which is why I'm concerned about throwing the farm at a big name forward if we continue to play the way we are. All that is important to Goody with this plan is an ability to contest in the air and bring ball to ground. Because we don't put a premium on hitting leads and it seems we don't even like leading up. When I watch our ball movement in free play the majority of the time, we are completely conditioned to move the ball in a way that gives us the best chance to keep the ball locked in our forward half at the cost of actually getting a real look at goal. To keep defensive structural integrity yeh yeh. Fritsch leads toward goal to often, Melksham does and T Mac does. Deep entries to lock it in yeh? But I ask again, at what cost?

At the cost of losing big games and  big moments it seems. 

No longer can you lot use the 21' flag as proof of our impenetrable game-plan. Because as I've said so many times, our losses during h/a season 21 were all replicas of the losses last year and this year. Yes we're hard to play against. But top teams know how to beat us. Yes we have a lot going for us. But Goodwin has been too stubborn and put all his eggs in. 

I disagree with the notion that we've made significant change. Even if the likes of DeeSpencer brings his reasons. It clearly hasn't been meaningful or significant given the way we lose games is identical to that of three years ago.  

Areas of change need to be first personnel and then plan.  

1 x midfield addition (draft/positional) 

1 x half forward addition (be that a positional change or trade/draft) 

1x specialist forward pocket 

The midfielders that consistently kill us are the ones we're missing. Kelly, Gulden, Walsh, Merret, Daicos. 

We just don't possess an outside  midfielder who has the capacity to break lines, hold space at a contest and consistently use the ball. Langdon is not that because he is a poor kick. Another double-edged sword. He is great for maintaining defensive structural integrity. But he also contributes to the ball flying back the other way due to his turnover rate. 

For me, McKertcher is a must from this draft for reasons I've already outline. He would free up one of Salem or Bowey to make a move forward of centre and play a Daicos quarter back role in his first year with some pinch hitting midfield minutes. Salem needs the pre-season of his life and he could be utelised in a number of ways at half forward but his biggest asset coming to us was his leg. And we need it forward of centre. 

I'd get Watson in who is simply a finisher and class user. And given the way we play, you can never have enough class finishes. He can play half forward or pocket and it also would allow picket to play further midfield minutes which I think is also a must next year given his creativity in congestion, vision, ball use. 

Maybe I went overboard with the key forward comment. I just don't see it as a pressing need given the way Goody likes to play. 

I think there's just got to be a few additions to this side in the right spots including a new move for Salem and a bit more licence for those with the footskills to work angles and go for their kicks. Goodwin needs to release the shackles a bit for those players who thrive with ball in hand. That is not Oliver, Viney and even Petracca. They need to know their limitations but also get better at kicking to the advantage of a forward. That needs to be drilled into them in the off-season. Kick to the advantage of. They're never going to be consistently hitting targets, it's just not them.

We're not far off. 

It just does my absolute nut in that we haven't addressed this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the response JImmy, a 3am post!

Rjay has raised most of what I would.  Your suggestions of McKercher and Watson seem to be out of reach.  When you go shopping you can only buy what's there, so we'll have to look elsewhere for the forward pocket and half forward.  McAdam my fill one need.  And if it happens that Watson is there at our first pick I'd still probably go O'Sullivan for structual purposes in preference although I really liked Nascent's suggestion of Sanders/Watson and Murphy but I don't pretend to know too much of those in the ND to judge.

You suggest we teach Oliver, Petracca and Viney to play within their limitations.  What does that mean, get the ball but not dispose of it?!  I'd suggest that whilst that is "doing your head in" it's been a focus over the years and is unlikely to improve significantly. They have their strengths and weaknesses and none of them are elite ball users. If it's a real issue what do you propose doing about it?  

I see we are in agreement about a KPF.

But I think there is something we really need to learn and it's from Collingwood.  During the year we've around 11 games decided by less than 2 goals and won 4.  Collingwood have had around 9 and guess what.  They've lost one, against us.

If I was Goody this is the area I'd concentrate on over the PS.  I think we've got as good a list as anyone (not better) and it will improve this year.  I'm with Rjay, if Brayshaw plays the two finals we are in a GF.  Same with Petty.  None of this doesn't mean we don't try and improve in all areas but I've highlighted where I'd concentrate.  I think everyone would agree we need some more polish on the outside.  Gulden, Coleman and Merritt would be great but we most likely won't solving this issue immediately unless we can get Salo or someone like Bowey or McVee into the mid mix.  I'd also look at this over the PS.

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

Feels like we're all agreeing here but not in exactly the same ways. 

Facts:

• we have contested midfield bulls that win their own ball and fall into the trap of bombing the ball forward 
• Goody places the highest value on contest, defence and time in forward half 
• in 2021 we had two experienced, smart big forwards who were mobile enough, drew serious defenders and took their chances when kicking for goal (McDonald 33 goals, 22 behinds, Brown 25 goals, 13 behinds)

This year we started and ended the season with zero big targets forward for the ball capable of holding the fort for a whole season

Facts:

• Brown started well but was troubled with injury after only a few rounds and barely fired a shot after (for MFC or Casey) 
• McDonald never got going and unfortunatley it seems the game has gone past him 
• we lucked in with Petty being more than capable only to be struck down by injury 
• we found JVR to be suitable, a real competitor but he is 19, doesn't have the experience and was always going to fatigue 
• Gawn and Grundy just aren't forwards 

Without those targets (& Fritsch) Goody had no choice but to try and piece a forward line together and win games with 10 - 12 goals, and the players executed that goal. No doubt we have ordinary kicks in our midfield but they were being instructed to kick the ball to a pack inside 50 so it can be brought to ground and held in our forward line. Even if they were better kicks they would have fallen into this team rule (which they no doubt found comfort in). 

In reality only Melkshams stellar form kept us winning games in the back half of the season. Take him out and we don't finish top 4. 

My take;

• this year every game, bar 1, that we lost we could've won with minutes remaining on the clock 
• largely, the game plan suits our strengths and keeps us in games, no need for whoesale change 
• fix the glaring gaps;
  1. find a forward target or 2 who can draw defenders and hit the scoreboard with 6s, not 1s 
  2. use point 1 to give Gawn a rest and keep him outside F50 (better for his mental health) 
  3. once we have point 1 instruct players to be smarter going inside F50. Real forward targets will create chances for the others and take their own when they come  

Re: point 1, we actually have 2 already who are pretty good kicks at goal (Petty & JVR), we just need another that can ruck 

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:07 AM, rjay said:

Scott Lucas believes better forwards create better disposal from further up the ground. They read the play better & connect better. I think he is right & if we fix this we go a long way to improving a lot of our game.

100%. Our 2021 game style and success points to this exactly. Brown and TMac were not superstars but they were smart (generally more smart than their opponents), knew their limitations and took their chance when they came 

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

2 hours ago, Dee*ceiving said:

Re: point 1, we actually have 2 already who are pretty good kicks at goal (Petty & JVR), we just need another that can ruck 

Nice summary.  Suggestions for the forward that can ruck?

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

Nice summary.  Suggestions for the forward that can ruck?

Hahaha...that's a lot harder mate. I (like many others) could suggest 20 or more names currently on lists but have no clue on their contractual status', expectations and interest. Not sure how much that helps. Perhaps we go aphabetically, I'll start with A

A; Amartey, Joel (Sydney) 

😛

p.s. jesting only...

[Turner 1,514]

59 minutes ago, Dee*ceiving said:

Hahaha...that's a lot harder mate. I (like many others) could suggest 20 or more names currently on lists but have no clue on their contractual status', expectations and interest. Not sure how much that helps. Perhaps we go aphabetically, I'll start with A

A; Amartey, Joel (Sydney) 

😛

p.s. jesting only...

B: brisbane's tom fullarton

[Demonstone 22,526]

C:  Can't believe we'll snag Larkey from North.

[monoccular 17,430]

I may have said it before, but an "elite kick" isn't any use at all if he cannot get the ball.

Accepting that we were a basket case out the time, so who know how any (and others) may have developed in a well run club, Strauss and Maria were drafted as "elite kicks" - sadly they rarely got the ball to display their elite skills,

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:09 PM, Edm said:

Melbourne needs to get some elite decision makers, or this team is done.

Viney, Oliver, brayshaw etc they just bomb the ball in 50 over and over 

How often do u ever see guys like Pendlebury, rozee , butters, degoey continually do that 

Probably the most important thread of the season Edm.

I would go one step further and say that Simon, Taylor & Lamb need to put a caveat on any future trades / draft picks.

That unless they're elite with decision making AND skillls by hand AND foot (preferably both sides) they're overlooked for the next option.

We also desperately need an injection of LEG SPEED (as per Dee Spencer's post above).  Speed creates space which creates time which creates opportunities coming inside.

And a key aspect from those opportunities is better looks for forwards.  In other words taking shots from better angles and/or closer to goal, not so many from the pockets or from 50 plus.

Simon, Taylor & Lamb chose to hang on to dour contested / defending types over leg speed in the past 18 months and its cost us imv.

The likes of Laurie over Bedford and the loss of Hunt (albeit he didn't help his own cause with a shizen 2022) ensures we are really only left with one genuinely zippy player and that's Kozzy.  Rivers goes ok as well.

Time and space can also be created by agility / baulking etc or silky handball skills a la Pendles, Mitchel, Flower, Diesal, Cyril, Ablett Snr & Jnr etc but those types don't come along very often.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[fr_ap 2,488]

Good discussion guys 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:16 PM, Demonstone said:

C:  Can't believe we'll snag Larkey from North.

D:  Demonstone reminding us that we wont (probably should be an F!)

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

44 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

That unless they're elite with decision making AND skillls by hand AND foot (preferably both sides) they're overlooked for the next option.

You'd really hate the players that this drafting rule would make us pick! 🤣

[Wrecker46 2,983]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:56 AM, JimmyGadson said:

 He puts a premium on playing forward-half football which also plays to our defensive strength given our elite intercept players. This is all well and good if you're turning that forward half, contest dominance into scoreboard dominance. But how many losses would you say come from an inability to turn that dominance into a score? And for how long has it been costing us? 

 

Prior to 2021 we were dominating Centre Clearences but not capitilising on that dominance and coverting it into wins. We changed it up in 2021 and stopped winning Centre Clearences at all costs and became more effective both when we did and didn't.

2023 is eerily similar with dominance in i50's rather than Cenre Clearences. I think it will take a small tweak in our game plan to get back to the best.

My guess is we will change how we set up defensively when kicking into our i50 and try and get our intercepts further away from our goal so there is more space when we get our rebound 150's.

We don't need wholesale changes.

[Fat Tony 5,231]

58 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Probably the most important thread of the season Edm.

I would go one step further and say that Simon, Taylor & Lamb need to put a caveat on any future trades / draft picks.

That unless they're elite with decision making AND skillls by hand AND foot (preferably both sides) they're overlooked for the next option.

We also desperately need an injection of LEG SPEED (as per Dee Spencer's post above).  Speed creates space which creates time which creates opportunities coming inside.

And a key aspect from those opportunities is better looks for forwards.  In other words taking shots from better angles and/or closer to goal, not so many from the pockets or from 50 plus.

Simon, Taylor & Lamb chose to hang on to dour contested / defending types over leg speed in the past 18 months and its cost us imv.

The likes of Laurie over Bedford and the loss of Hunt (albeit he didn't help his own cause with a shizen 2022) ensures we are really only left with one genuinely zippy player and that's Kozzy.  Rivers goes ok as well.

Time and space can also be created by agility / baulking etc or silky handball skills a la Pendles, Mitchel, Flower, Diesal, Cyril, Ablett Snr & Jnr etc but those types don't come along very often.

How many players in the AFL have elite decision making, elite skills and leg speed? You are basically advocating that we should trade in or draft Nick Daicos, Josh Kelly or Izak Rankine.

I am keen to add some pace and class, but you need to be realistic. If Mark Blicavs, Dylan Grimes or Alex Rance are on the draft table, you take them.

[whatwhat say what 22,757]

9 minutes ago, Wrecker46 said:

We don't need wholesale changes.

this

we are about tweaks to the list and team structure, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater

in 2024 we're gunning for finals for four years in a row; our best record since the 1950s-60s is five from 87-91 inclusive

arguably it was out lack of a gun tall forward that cost us games back then, when teams were much more reliant upon tall forwards; over the last decade we've seen it's mid-sized talls and smalls that do the scoreboard damage with talls there to compete and ensure that there's not easy intercept marks

i would love to add a superstar to our side, but there's none up for grabs - when the two most talked about players in the free agency & trade period are ben mckay and brodie grundy who is going to be at three clubs in three years, it's slim pickings on the player movement front this off-season