POSTGAME: Match SIM vs St. Kilda

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

5 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Not much coverage of the game here in Delhi but I assume from the lack of comment that Brayshaw didn't play. Is he injured ?

Brayshaw played, was the usual solid Gus game in the backline.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Dee Zephyr

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

52 minutes ago, Macca said:

The following is not necessarily particular to yesterday's game (but some instances pertaining did occur)

Bombing it deep when we're outnumbered deep often leads to uncontested marks to the opposition.  And when our forwards get to the contest from those long bombs we rarely take marks anyway.  As a percentage play, it doesn't work consistently enough

Far more thinking is required with our forward 50 entries.  And all our forwards need to be on the move too in order to create multiple options.  Playing in front and/or creating separation is a must

It's really not all that complicated ... lowering the eyes should be a prerequisite for our midfielders

Hate to say it but we could learn a bit by how the Pies go about it

So we get the first bit right ... a midfield that gets an abundance of the ball thus creating lots of forward 50 entries

If we want to win another flag we need to be far more efficient heading into the forward line

I don’t think it’s entirely fair to compare with a side like the Pies who are an all out attacking force. 

They hit up quality inside 50’s because they stream from half back and through the corridor. Do that and you’ll get open spaces to lead in to.

Whilst we are clearly encouraging more risk and speed of ball movement from half back it’s not entirely how we want to pay. We’re happy to have slower build ups, to use the boundary more and to then attack in to a more crowded 50 that allows us to lock it in.

I thought we showed an appropriate level of rebound and run from half back for the first game out. If we keep building on that we’ll get attacking looks inside 50

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,800]

54 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Disagree.

He was best 22 everyday of the week from about 2018-2020.

The premiership is coming up 2 years ago.

We need to stop this whole narrative of always going back to that moment in justifying a players position in our current team. History will tell you that.

There are players that are putting pressure on spots and right now I don't know if Harmes is exactly best 22. The likes of Laurie, Howes, Woewodin, AMW, Chandler will be putting huge pressure on Harmes to perform.

I saw more exciting things from the likes of Chandler, Woewodin and AMW then I did from Harmes yesterday. 

I'm not disagreeing with much of this either Daz only to say that the two players you mentioned played at the level below.  I thought Laurrie was decient.

I'm not sure that Harmes was best 22 from 2018 - 2020 on this forum.  Always seems to attract comments questioning if he's good enough.  But he still seems to play majority of games most seasons.

I think we've agreed to disagree on this topic, but personally I think write James Harmes off at your peril.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Disagree.

He was best 22 everyday of the week from about 2018-2020.

The premiership is coming up 2 years ago.

We need to stop this whole narrative of always going back to that moment in justifying a players position in our current team. History will tell you that.

There are players that are putting pressure on spots and right now I don't know if Harmes is exactly best 22. The likes of Laurie, Howes, Woewodin, AMW, Chandler will be putting huge pressure on Harmes to perform.

I saw more exciting things from the likes of Chandler, Woewodin and AMW then I did from Harmes yesterday. 

It’s Harmes v Chandler for the last spot in the 22 right now if everyone gets through healthy the next 2 weeks.

Not sure most of the young guys are pressing for spots yet but I’d like to see Woey played forward/mid in the VFL so he can push more. And for AMW to build fitness and form and get his defensive pressure more consistent.

Even if Harmesy stuffs up a lot he has versatility and height which is why I’d still have him right in the frame. I don’t think a wing rotation of Langdon, Hunter and ANB is sustainable once a team rolls out a 190cm+ winger. Unless the back up plan is something like Gus and Hunter swap but then we’re short down back.

Similarly the 4 small forwards in the same line up can work if Kos goes on ball and ANB in spurts to the wing but it just leaves us light on for contesting longer kicks to half forward.

It’s up to Chandler to really nail that spot next week to show his skill is more important than the size and versatility of Harmes.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

One thing I noticed yesterday was with McVee for Hibbo, Hunter for JJ and Chandler for Fritsch we’re actually fairly short through the wings and flanks now.

Especially when big bodied mids and flankers has been a core part of our plan for the last few years.

With Rivers and Gus down back we still have some size but we’ll have to get the match ups right to not expose Bowey and McVee.

Fritsch will give us more height up forward and with 3 talls we aren’t exactly short but it helps if more forwards can halve or win one on ones.

The wing is the position where we seem to have gone from big mids to smaller runners and we just have to be sure to have a plan to make sure teams can’t exploit that.

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,926]

6 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It’s Harmes v Chandler for the last spot in the 22 right now if everyone gets through healthy the next 2 weeks.

Not sure most of the young guys are pressing for spots yet but I’d like to see Woey played forward/mid in the VFL so he can push more. And for AMW to build fitness and form and get his defensive pressure more consistent.

Even if Harmesy stuffs up a lot he has versatility and height which is why I’d still have him right in the frame. I don’t think a wing rotation of Langdon, Hunter and ANB is sustainable once a team rolls out a 190cm+ winger. Unless the back up plan is something like Gus and Hunter swap but then we’re short down back.

Similarly the 4 small forwards in the same line up can work if Kos goes on ball and ANB in spurts to the wing but it just leaves us light on for contesting longer kicks to half forward.

It’s up to Chandler to really nail that spot next week to show his skill is more important than the size and versatility of Harmes.

I also think Chandler will be pushing, Spargo, ANB, Melksham etc. They need to hit the scoreboard more or provide more forward line pressure. Fritsch hits the scoreboard but we need more pressure from him defensively as a medium size player.

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

15 hours ago, binman said:

100% agree on all three.

It looks like Mcvee has Salem's spot for now. Nice kicking action and finds targets.

The team really got around him early when he hit up a forward with a sweet hit that set up a [censored] on goal.

Hunter's kicking inside 50 is exactly what we need. In addition to setting up scores, he creates a problem for oppos trying to bypass Langdon. I love that both have shaved heads.

I think a key factior in how much Grundy improves us will be how well he and maxy combine. It might take the first handful of games to build their chemistry. If/when they click they will be a formidable combo given their size, ruck craft and incredible fitness.

That combo is an improvement on maxy and Jackson. So that's a win right there.

Well said, the changes made, make us have more similar good qualities of  some other good winning teams.

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

16 hours ago, tiers said:

Why are we being constantly outmarked in pack contested?

Have you kindly heard of the words tripping permitted in AFL..

[P-man 13,366]

Pretty excited to see Riv getting more midfield time. He has the build that could see him really excel.

Hunter is going to be an important pick up on that evidence. Not sure if he missed a single target.

Hoping that was a sign of things to come from BBB. He was solid.

Love JVR’s follow up when the ball hits the ground. You can tell he has a great attitude.

[dazzledavey36 54,282]

53 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I'm not disagreeing with much of this either Daz only to say that the two players you mentioned played at the level below.  I thought Laurrie was decient.

I'm not sure that Harmes was best 22 from 2018 - 2020 on this forum.  Always seems to attract comments questioning if he's good enough.  But he still seems to play majority of games most seasons.

I think we've agreed to disagree on this topic, but personally I think write James Harmes off at your peril.

I honestly the only way Harmes can get back to his best is by becoming our number 1 tagger. 

Unfortunately for Harmes sakes the coaching staff have shifted from this since 2019 which has resulted in Harmes slow decline in form 

[58er 6,389]

15 hours ago, Maldonboy38 said:

Agree with much others have written. McVee looked good, but the Saints were horrible, and it looked like he was playing on skinny kids most of the time. I think he is still a bit light and will be shown up badly by mature players with more size. As good as he played, not sure he is a lock for round 1.

More reasons not to read too much generally into result today

• It was a preseason game
• It was very, very hot and very, very windy. Lots of balls going inside F50 dropping short, going over heads, and hooking left and right.
• You could see players from both sides holding back on pressure at times to save from injury

Generally speaking we looked strong and able. 

At what stage was McVee knocked aside in play? He may not be Robbie Flower but might just possess some of his skills with a light body!  
Looked a very finely skilled player off half back with a few tricks in general play as a bonus! 

[layzie 33,752]

Impressive stuff watching the highlights. Trac looks a lot more assured with art shooting. Still drops it a little high but the run up and holding of the ball seem much more consistent 

[monoccular 17,413]

14 hours ago, binman said:

I have to say it was impossible watching at the ground to work out what sort of game plan Lyon is running with. 

And they looked pretty bloody average. 

Has anyone ever, especially those whom he coaches, ever worked out Lyon's game plan?

2 hours ago, kev martin said:

Thought we started the game with some semblance of lowering our eyes and hitting up with short and drilled passes. It was looking like a great change for us. It didn't last long, and as you say we, reverted to the long bomb into them.

Hoping the game revue will show how we started, and they encourage them to keep lowering the eyes. Thus, creating the easy marks inside the 50.

The long bomb is a panic, especially if they don't get any advantage for the forwards. 

I wasn't at the game, but did the forward entry tactic change depending if we were kicking into vs with the gale?

[Macca 16,922]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don’t think it’s entirely fair to compare with a side like the Pies who are an all out attacking force. 

They hit up quality inside 50’s because they stream from half back and through the corridor. Do that and you’ll get open spaces to lead in to.

Whilst we are clearly encouraging more risk and speed of ball movement from half back it’s not entirely how we want to pay. We’re happy to have slower build ups, to use the boundary more and to then attack in to a more crowded 50 that allows us to lock it in.

I thought we showed an appropriate level of rebound and run from half back for the first game out. If we keep building on that we’ll get attacking looks inside 50

And we attack from half back and through the corridor as well whenever applicable.  So that part of it is identical apart from when we attack through Langdon's wing.  The pies attack through their wings on occasions as well.  We do what they do (or vice-versa)

And sometimes we'll prefer to attack in a more careful way through our defensive wing.  But the Pies do that as well when they are forced to do so

However, I will say that the other teams flood our forward line as a default move so to overcome that is not easy

So I don't see much of a difference between the 2 teams apart from the midfield area onwards

So if we periodically fall down is from the midfield onwards, that is the fault of our midfield coach, the overall coaching, the midfielders themselves and the forward line coaching as well as the forwards not presenting well enough

So it's all of that, all at once

Again, the above is not pertaining to yesterday per se.  It's more an observation from 2021 & 2022

And we need to get better with our inside 50 forays if we are to win big again.  And that has been a talking point from about midway through last season (by many here)

At our best (2021) we attacked furiously from half back and through the midfield.  Last year less so, but we often had to deal with our forward line being crowded so it became diificult to pin-point targets up forward.  Thus, the bombing it in whilst hoping to create scoring opportunities from those long bombs (?)

Edited February 25, 2023 by Macca

[kev martin 9,806]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

I wasn't at the game, but did the forward entry tactic change depending if we were kicking into vs with the gale?

Yes, with the wind I think they tried to get it over the back as St.Kilda was able to do.

Against the wind we were more calculated with the ball movement. In the third, the Saints played better footy. It was difficult to tell if we came out slow in the third, some of it was due to the Saints favourable wind advantage, but we didn't do as well with the stab passes into the forwards, like in the first.

The goal kicking into the wind was difficult. The ball was ripped sideways for both teams. No-one thought about drilling it hard and low when goal kicking into the wind. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by kev martin

[Lord Travis 10,697]

57 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Has anyone ever, especially those whom he coaches, ever worked out Lyon's game plan?

Defensive flood and bore the opposition to death.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

1 minute ago, Lord Travis said:

Defensive flood and bore the opposition to death.

Defensive flood = 16 conceded goals now 

Lyon really has lost his touch 😂

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

5 hours ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Chaplain interview on MFC site sounds like it will be Trac and Koz Mid/Forward > Forward/Mid and they will send Koz in for a couple of bursts. I reckon Koz time will be something like 60:25:15 FWD/MID/INT. 

Thx engine.  Sounds like a decent mix.  Koz brings the ability to create time & space when he gets it and the finish is usually first class.  Might be just what the doctor ordered if what you say about Chaplain is on the money.

Will certainly provide an extra match up headache for the opp as well

[titan_uranus 24,974]

I’m excited to see Brown looking more mobile and threatening but the clear issue IMO is maintaining that. He looked great this time last year and Round 1 was arguably his best game for the season. Very keen to know if the tweaks to his pre-season will pay off. Will change us demonstrably if he’s closer to his best. 

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

45 minutes ago, Macca said:

And we attack from half back and through the corridor as well whenever applicable.  So that part of it is identical apart from when we attack through Langdon's wing.  The pies attack through their wings on occasions as well.  We do what they do (or vice-versa)

And sometimes we'll prefer to attack in a more careful way through our defensive wing.  But the Pies do that as well when they are forced to do so

However, I will say that the other teams flood our forward line as a default move so to overcome that is not easy

So I don't see much of a difference between the 2 teams apart from the midfield area onwards

See I’d strongly disagree with that.

2 of the pies talls in Moore and Howe play on and run, carry and take riskier kicks far more than May and Lever do. Less so May at his best but definitely the 2022 version of May who was playing fairly safe, and certainly the 2022 version of Lever who was crippled. Murphy/Petty is a more even match.

And last year the pies flankers - Maynard, Quaynor, Noble and Daicos would all run and attack. Compared to our guys in whatever combination of Hibbo, Salem, Hunt, Riv, Gus, Bowey who apart from Hunt in combination with Langdon wouldn’t play that way as their default mode.

When we won the ball back inside D50 we often find a mark, steady and go from there. McVee, Bowey and a fitter and healthier Rivers and in time Salem should give us more bounce. 

They’ll get the ball to Hunter and Pickett faster who will get it to a more open forward line. 

Of course there’s still forward/mid connection things to work on. And Hunter hit some targets on slower plays by weighting and syncing his kick with the talls. But attacking in to a set backline is really really hard for all afl sides. The counter attack off half back to catch a team before they are set is so vital. That’s why our coaches have been stressing all preseason for our players to move the ball as quick as possible. It’s been 3 seconds and move it on all summer 

[Macca 16,922]

53 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

See I’d strongly disagree with that.

2 of the pies talls in Moore and Howe play on and run, carry and take riskier kicks far more than May and Lever do. Less so May at his best but definitely the 2022 version of May who was playing fairly safe, and certainly the 2022 version of Lever who was crippled. Murphy/Petty is a more even match.

And last year the pies flankers - Maynard, Quaynor, Noble and Daicos would all run and attack. Compared to our guys in whatever combination of Hibbo, Salem, Hunt, Riv, Gus, Bowey who apart from Hunt in combination with Langdon wouldn’t play that way as their default mode.

When we won the ball back inside D50 we often find a mark, steady and go from there. McVee, Bowey and a fitter and healthier Rivers and in time Salem should give us more bounce. 

They’ll get the ball to Hunter and Pickett faster who will get it to a more open forward line. 

Of course there’s still forward/mid connection things to work on. And Hunter hit some targets on slower plays by weighting and syncing his kick with the talls. But attacking in to a set backline is really really hard for all afl sides. The counter attack off half back to catch a team before they are set is so vital. That’s why our coaches have been stressing all preseason for our players to move the ball as quick as possible. It’s been 3 seconds and move it on all summer 

Yeah ok but what about 2021?  I'm counting that year in as well as last year.  It seems you're only talking about last year

Appraise both years so with regards to most of 2021 and a reasonable amount of 2022 and you'll find that we have attacked hard from half back and through the corridor

If it's recency bias, then you make good points.  But you have to count the sum of all parts (both years)

So why is 2021 important to this discussion?  Because if we don't attack hard from half back and through the corridor as we did in 2021, then I don't hold out much hope of saluting again.  If we counted 2020 as well, then our movement was often stagnant that year (missed finals with a decent list)

So 2022 is important as well in terms of what not to do ... to counter a crowded forward line we can't allow teams to have the time to flood back.  And bomb it in as a counter measure?  Doesn't work

So move the ball quickly and directly with precision as a default move (as we did in 2021) By contrast, the Pies weren't moving the ball with speed, precision and directness in 2021

But we did win 16 games last year so there many times when we did move the ball quite well.  But not enough of that sort of ball movement when it counted and our ball movement from the midfield often consisted of the long bomb 

It's a bit like the long ball in soccer ... often obsolete for the good teams and now largely the domain of the strugglers

Edited February 25, 2023 by Macca

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

Viney played didn't he? Have barely seen his name mentioned....can anyone enlighten?

[Demonland 71,612]

Just now, Hellaintabadplacetobe said:

Viney played didn't he? Have barely seen his name mentioned....can anyone enlighten?

Both Gus and Vines were dependable as they usually are. 

[whatwhat say what 22,697]

ouch...

Quote

St Kilda have suffered another pre-season injury blow, with midfielder Jack Billings ruled out for up to eight weeks with a fractured leg.

 

[Maldonboy38 6,390]

1 hour ago, 58er said:

At what stage was McVee knocked aside in play? He may not be Robbie Flower but might just possess some of his skills with a light body!  
Looked a very finely skilled player off half back with a few tricks in general play as a bonus! 

Never said he was knocked aside, but I did say that many players were holding back from full physical contact due to preseason. Agree he is finely skilled, likes his evasive movements, and his kicking was great. I stand by my uncertainty about how he would go 1 on 1 against biger bodied forwards and mids.