Gawn vs Cox

[Demonland 71,175]

[Bitter but optimistic 22,218]

FMD !! When I saw the thread title , I first thought  of that dirty knee raising septic tank, who is not worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as  Max.

However, the bloke above is - a great player.

The stats do, however, support my contention ( as stated previously, many times, on "land) that Max is the best ruckman I've seen in my many decades of following footy.

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,806]

There's been some great ruckman over the last 50 years. Big Dean Cox easily one of the best. Dempsey, Madden, Nichols and Farmer top shelf as well. Our bloke easily sits comfortably in this company. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Queanbeyan Demon

[demosaw 1,011]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:15 PM, Queanbeyan Demon said:

There's been some great ruckman over the last 50 years. Big Dean Cox easily one of the best. Dempsey, Madden, Nichols and Farmer top shelf as well. Our bloke easily sits comfortably in this company. 

Yes some ruckman have a few dominant seasons but Cox had a decade of dominance.

[dl4e 5,851]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:15 PM, Queanbeyan Demon said:

There's been some great ruckman over the last 50 years. Big Dean Cox easily one of the best. Dempsey, Madden, Nichols and Farmer top shelf as well. Our bloke easily sits comfortably in this company. 

Ditterich.

[tiers 2,826]

Since WW2 the following ruckmen have won Brownlow Medals from 1946 to 1992:

Cordner, Wright (2), Gleeson, Shultz, N. Teasdale, Thompson, Dempsey, Moss, G. Teasdale, Moore (2), Round, Stynes and Wynd.

That period also included Nicholls, Farmer, Ditterich and Madden who were equally as good and influential. 15 out of 47 - 32%.

But none since 1992!

Does this mean that modern day dominant ruckmen such as Cox, Gawn, Grundy are less influential or does it mean that the classic midfielder is overly influential? One for the AFL to sort out, if they can.

 

[Deebauched 1,220]

4 hours ago, dl4e said:

Ditterich.

Neil Kerley said Ditterich was dangerous.

He was.

[DeeZone 9,613]

Max has Dean Cox covered but let’s see in 3-4 years how their stats stack up, if not for Gawny’s early injuries he could have had the throne to himself.!!!

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,468]

Cox was an unbelievable player; such a smooth mover and was every bit as damaging as Cousins, Kerr and Judd in that WCE team.
Completely different from Gawn though.  If you had to pick one for your team, it would depend upon gameplan, teammates, etc.
Cox was a genuine midfielder (ruck rover), probably closer to Grundy 2017-2019 and of course the OG Jim Stynes. 

Both six time all Australians so Gawn is every chance to go one up in the next year or two.

 

[tiers 2,826]

46 minutes ago, Deebauched said:

Neil Kerley said Ditterich was dangerous.

He was.

I saw Ditterich in his first game as a 17 year old against the dees at the Junction Oval in, I think, 1963. He was good.

In later years he developed a white line fever mean streak and became dangerous as well. Not as classy a ruckman as some of the others but worthy of inclusion in any list of great ruckmen from the 60s and 70s.

[Mach5 4,767]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:19 PM, tiers said:

Since WW2 the following ruckmen have won Brownlow Medals from 1946 to 1992:

Cordner, Wright (2), Gleeson, Shultz, N. Teasdale, Thompson, Dempsey, Moss, G. Teasdale, Moore (2), Round, Stynes and Wynd.

That period also included Nicholls, Farmer, Ditterich and Madden who were equally as good and influential. 15 out of 47 - 32%.

But none since 1992!

Does this mean that modern day dominant ruckmen such as Cox, Gawn, Grundy are less influential or does it mean that the classic midfielder is overly influential? One for the AFL to sort out, if they can.

 

It means the Brownlow should be disregarded, or at least not be seen as the most prestigious individual accolade in the game.

I’d put more weight in a media award, but I think the AFLCA Champion Player of the Year is the benchmark. 
 

Of which Gawn has won 1, and Oliver has now won 2.

[DubDee 25,486]

Cox was a great mover and has Gawn covered for foot skills

But Gawn has Cox covered in pure ruck work and contested marking

Both Guns, hard to split

[Hopeful Demon 1,517]

They're easily the two best ruckmen of the modern era. As @DubDee said, it's very hard to split them. That being said, Gawn's 2018 season was probably better than anything Cox produced.

[Palace Dees 2,269]

3 hours ago, DubDee said:

Cox was a great mover and has Gawn covered for foot skills

But Gawn has Cox covered in pure ruck work and contested marking

Both Guns, hard to split

 

1 hour ago, Hopeful Demon said:

They're easily the two best ruckmen of the modern era. As @DubDee said, it's very hard to split them. That being said, Gawn's 2018 season was probably better than anything Cox produced.

Cox was a damn good footballer.

Gawn is a Hoover Damn good footballer.

[Demon_spurs 1,823]

1 hour ago, Hopeful Demon said:

They're easily the two best ruckmen of the modern era. As @DubDee said, it's very hard to split them. That being said, Gawn's 2018 season was probably better than anything Cox produced.

I don't think you should leave Sandilands out of this picture. I remember him dominating and being seriously scary to negotiate. Unfortunately became injury prone in his later years, but some sort of player and I think sits comfortably with these two

[DEE fence 5,002]

5 goals in the prelim and r23 matches have him #1 for me. I also (as stated elsewhere) think he pays a 'Gawn' tax from the umps that is worth 3-4 possessions a game, for just being too bloody good. I don't remember Cox or Sandilands (who was basically a bikie who played footy) ever getting the rough end of the pineapple so regularly. 

Lastly Gawn is an outstanding Captain, has been super interesting to me to see that you don't have to be the smartest (not saying he is thick either, probably unique would be fairest thing to say) guy in the room, just the most upstanding, to be a great leader. Miles ahead of the other two. Gawn is in the conversation like a Hodge, Maxwell or Selwood, maybe just behind a Voss or Buckley.

Edited January 12, 2023 by DEE fence
Typos

[whatwhat say what 22,607]

4 hours ago, DEE fence said:

5 goals in the prelim and r23 matches have him #1 for me. I also (as stated elsewhere) think he pays a 'Gawn' tax from the umps that is worth 3-4 possessions a game, for just being too bloody good. I don't remember Cox or Sandilands (who was basically a bikie who played footy) ever getting the rough end of the pineapple so regularly. 

Lastly Gawn is an outstanding Captain, has been super interesting to me to see that you don't have to be the smartest (not saying he is thick either, probably unique would be fairest thing to say) guy in the room, just the most upstanding, to be a great leader. Miles ahead of the other two. Gawn is in the conversation like a Hodge, Maxwell or Selwood, maybe just behind a Voss or Buckley.

cox used to cop it too; like gawn he just ignored it and got on with the game

think yr underrating big sandy - he was a colossus and when he was 'on' he was unstoppable

and lastly i'd rate gawn's leadership alongside voss, selwood, and maxwell

[58er 6,376]

3 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

cox used to cop it too; like gawn he just ignored it and got on with the game

think yr underrating big sandy - he was a colossus and when he was 'on' he was unstoppable

and lastly i'd rate gawn's leadership alongside voss, selwood, and maxwell

Ahead of Buckley IMO who was a very assisted player at times taking handballs from his players. Never remember him giving many if any handballs!! But he could kick mighty long distances it must be said and disposal was pretty good. 

Gawny is up with Hodge Voss and Selwood and possibly Cotchin who willed himself to the top ( Should  not have played in GF in 2017 though!).

[DEE fence 5,002]

5 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

cox used to cop it too; like gawn he just ignored it and got on with the game.

My point re Cox is that I feel he gets umpired 'against', I thought Cox got a neutral response from the umps, he was bloody good.

think yr underrating big sandy - he was a colossus and when he was 'on' he was unstoppable.

Totally agree about being colossal but he was not always the most professional with his preparation and could let the team down with the occasional post it in performance, was on the nose bags and hung with some really bad people also sours my judgement on him. He could have been an all time great.

and lastly i'd rate gawn's leadership alongside voss, selwood, and maxwell

It is is tier 1 no doubt, furious agreement 👌 

[Ted Lasso 19,236]

Max gawn is likely to retire with 6-8 All Australian nods, having been All Australian captain in a premiership year, his record reflects an all time great. 

Cox for me really showed the value of a ruckman who can add almost that extra mid, and started the craze, this is controversial but in terms of pure rucking, i don't even think Cox was the best ruckman in the league at the time, it was the whole package he offered. big Sandi and others were at least as good. 

Max in my view is the best pure ruckman i've ever seen, and his mobility and impact around the ground put in right in the conversation for the best ruckman ever, full stop

[binman 42,522]

On 9/9/2022 at 6:42 PM, Bitter but optimistic said:

FMD !! When I saw the thread title , I first thought  of that dirty knee raising septic tank, who is not worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as  Max.

However, the bloke above is - a great player.

The stats do, however, support my contention ( as stated previously, many times, on "land) that Max is the best ruckman I've seen in my many decades of following footy.

I agree.

Hard to say who the best ruck is over say the last 45 odd years.

For me Dempsey was just about the best I'd seen.

Len Thompson was a gun - super mobile - and Teasdale was dominant the year he won the Brownlow.

Simon Madden and Salmon were both fantastic. Peter Moore wasn't too far off that level

Stynes wasn't one of the great pure rucks, but his incredible resilience and fitness puts him in the conversation.

In the modern era I have Ryder and Goldstein right up there

I was always guilty of underrating cox,  perhaps because I didn't watch many Eagles games. But he is undoubtedly one of the best rucks of the modern era. As is sandilands, who I probably also underrated.

But there is no doubt in my mind.

Max is, hands down, the best ruckman I have ever seen play (I never saw polly farmer play).

Just look at the comparison with cox, who was probably considered the best ruck of his era.

Of the nine categories cox only bests maxy in three (and only one category decisively) - 1.2 more disposals per game, 0.8 more marks per game and 0.2 more goals per game.

Maxy has cox covered in six categories. Of those six he has cox covered decisively in four of them.

The category that really jumps out is hit outs to advantage, which is surely the most important one when assessing a ruckman.

He averages almost twice as many as hit outs to advantage than cox. Incredible. 

As DEE FENCE noted, maxy gets extra points for his incredible leadership over the last few season, particularly once made captain.

Not only is he is the best ruck I have seen, he is the best skipper I have seen at the dees.

Edited January 12, 2023 by binman

[tiers 2,826]

The hallmark of an outstanding captain in our great game is that he can win games by his own efforts or can inspire his team to win games by his leadership.

By this standard, Maxie is as good as any captain I have seen since the 50s, including RDB and Robbie. He also possesses the innate ability to gracefully share his unique character with the wider footy community. He is a one off and he is ours.

There might have been better pure ruckmen (Farmer) or better goalkickers (Madden) or even better runners (Stynes) than Maxie but none combined all the talents as well as he has.

GO DEES

[binman 42,522]

2 minutes ago, tiers said:

The hallmark of an outstanding captain in our great game is that he can win games by his own efforts or can inspire his team to win games by his leadership.

By this standard, Maxie is as good as any captain I have seen since the 50s, including RDB and Robbie. He also possesses the innate ability to gracefully share his unique character with the wider footy community. He is a one off and he is ours.

There might have been better pure ruckmen (Farmer) or better goalkickers (Madden) or even better runners (Stynes) than Maxie but none combined all the talents as well as he has.

GO DEES

It's funny you should say that tiers.

When thinking about the best rucks i have seen, each player had one or two unique strengths or skills - madden being a top example (in addition to being a goal scorer, he was a beautiful run and jump mark).

Cox was probably the most well rounded of the rucks i listed (which is no doubt why he was so highly rated) - which makes the comparison numbers even more impactful.

Goal kicking is probably the one skill where he is below average - and even that has improved significantly over the last few years (though went backwards last season i guess).

[Pennant St Dee 13,057]

Cox was an absolute gun and need to consider a few things with him 

a) From 2011-14 Natanui was their main ruckman, which effects Coxy’s stats

b) We have a really good midfield, but it’s nowhere near what Cox had till 2007 with Judd, Cousins and Kerr, whilst they were absolutely A graders Coxy gave them first use most times with his tapwork.

c) I don’t think for his hit out dominance that Max gives us as many first looks

Just my opinion 

[binman 42,522]

56 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Cox was an absolute gun and need to consider a few things with him 

a) From 2011-14 Natanui was their main ruckman, which effects Coxy’s stats

b) We have a really good midfield, but it’s nowhere near what Cox had till 2007 with Judd, Cousins and Kerr, whilst they were absolutely A graders Coxy gave them first use most times with his tapwork.

c) I don’t think for his hit out dominance that Max gives us as many first looks

Just my opinion 

And I'd add that cox played his career flying to the east coast every second week - which is hard core for any player, but particularly a bloke of his size.

Point c is probably a fair comment - but I reckon the defensive tactics to disrupt the effectiveness and synergy  of the opposition ruck and midfield combo have advanced significantly since cox played.

Edited January 13, 2023 by binman