41 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

We have been bad for different reasons at different times. Combining them is lazy. 

Maclure is beyond lazy, intellectually. He's just there to make the viewer feel better about their own knowledge, although not necessarily for the same reasons.

I actually think our current problem is not enough good players against the top half of competition. It is not unusual but as fans we tend to over rate our players ability.

The season is perfectlY set up. Everyone on our case, zero expectations, bunch of losers

We’ll struggle at the start, limp to 3-3 then get Brown and Weideman back and surge to a Premiership 

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Lewis said much the same thing about the super successful hawks team he played in.

The players set and maintained the standards. Let their teammates know when those standards were not met and payers answered to each other when not met.

And also said the culture was different at the dees when he got there....

Would love to hear if he thinks its changed yet. Also love to hear what role he thinks supporters have in setting and driving a Clubs culture. 

Only on Field performance can silence the negative noise directed at our club.

1 hour ago, drdrake said:

Only on Field performance can silence the negative noise directed at our club.

Spot on Dr. Winning fixes everything.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by old dee

People bagging out McClure for making cheap lazy comments is part of our problem. We don’t expect enough of our club as a whole. 
yes Sellers is a cranky old bastard, but he  did win 3 Flags in 4 years as the CHF, which in his day was the Dominant Position on the Ground 

Rather than bag him out, i prefer to listen, because whatever we have done over the last 56 years (and counting) has failed. 
Do all of our Players give 100% to themselves and their teammates?

I have my doubts (even a little bit off is enough)

Max has to set the standards and hold them. 

2 hours ago, sue said:

 No amount of  culture will turn a team of unskilled players into a champion team. 

Agree.

But culture will help turn a team of very good players into a championship team.

One example.

Few would argue that our best pure midfielder (ie not tracc) is Oliver. One of the best players in the AFL. 

In the tigers practice match in the last quarter he brilliantly won a contested ball, accelerated from the contest and then handballed to Salem who was ahead of him, about 70 metres from goal and had space to run into. Great work. And it should have set up a scoring opportunity. 

But didn't. Because Oliver stopped once he handballed and didn't do the basics - sheppard/block the player chasing him. Footy 101. 

That player was able to put enough pressure on Salem to affect his kick and Salem kicked it straight to a tigers defender inside 50.

A turnover instead of a shot on goal. All because Oliver was lazy and chose not to do the basics. 

No doubt that error was picked up in the review with coaches. But i reckon it has more power coming from a teammate   

Now, perhaps a teammate pointed that error out to him. I certainly hope so. I hope a senior player gave him a bake as defence is an area he need to improve in. I hope so because that indicates the sort of culture Its time noted was embedded at the swans

Sure it is a practice match but that is absolutely no excuse. And i'm not wanting to bag out Oliver, who is an out and out star. 

But Oliver is senior player - and should be setting an example to his teammates and in particular the young players', who must look up to him. And it is hard for him to hold teammates to standard he doesn't reach. 

To be honest, it is for reasons related to culture that I have come to appreciate what Jack Viney brings to the team more and more. He can't hold a candle to Oliver talent wise but he would have made the block.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by binman

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

Kid is just back from his mum’s funeral.  Think it showed care and consideration.  He did not play in the game at Drivel stadium.

HFF you are way off in this comment and BN has corrected you. Emotions at this stage after Kossies  loss last month Are still raw and open.

Great to see Goody show emotion don't see it often enough at times I think.

5 minutes ago, 58er said:

HFF you are way off in this comment and BN has corrected you. Emotions at this stage after Kossies  loss last month Are still raw and open.

Great to see Goody show emotion don't see it often enough at times I think.

No, I corrected myself.  You did not look.  

1 hour ago, drdrake said:

Only on Field performance can silence the negative noise directed at our club.

Spot on Dr. Winning fixes everything.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by old dee

1 hour ago, rufus said:

My belief is that our skills look poor because of our lack of defensive intensity. When we have applied high levels of pressure to our opponents, we create turnovers in situations where we can break away and have more time and space, hence it's easier to hit targets.

Our defensive intensity back, forward and in the middle is very poor.

I agree with your comment about the intensity and this should be a non negotiable, we are very hot and cold with our intensity levels.

On Skills, I can't believe that we have so many bad kicks in our side.  How can one club draft so many players that fail to execute a fundamental skill of the game.  Our recruiting team went over board for 3-4 years drafting contested ball winning players and to me it was more important to be able to win the ball at the contest then disposal.  Top level players should be good to elite kicks, I reckon we only have a handful of players that would be rated as good AFL kicks, we don't have any elite kickers on our list Salem would be the closest we have, most would be poor to average.  Once a player hit 18/19yo it is bloody hard to improve kicks especially under AFL pressure.

Is drafting the wrong players culture, no it is mismanagement.  Our drafting was extremely poorly managed for so long and then the development once they got to the club was poor.  We should have 10-15 top 25 picks that would all be 25-30 years old running around for us over the past few years but we don't as we under developed and drafted the wrong players.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by drdrake

Nothing like a well timed rocket before round 1, I hope the media smash us for the next week 

this makes me so mad!

I need a cheeseboard and a nice Pinot to calm me down

25 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree.

But culture will help turn a team of very good players into championship team.

One example. Few would argue that our best pure midfielder (ie not tracc) is Oliver. One of the best players in the AFL. 

In the tigers practice match in the last quarter he brilliantly won a contested ball, accelerated from the contest and then handballed to Salem who was ahead of him, about 70 metres from goal and had space to run into. Great work. And it should have set up a scoring opportunity. 

But didn't. Because Oliver stopped once he handballed and didn't do the basics - sheppard/block the player chasing him. Footy 101. 

That player was able to put enough pressure on Salem to affect his kick and Salem kicked it straight to a tigers defender inside 50.

A turnover instead of a shot on goal. All because Oliver was lazy and chose not to do the basics. 

No doubt that error was picked up in the review with coaches. But i reckon it has more power coming from a teammate   

Now, perhaps a teammate pointed that error out to him. I certainly hope so. I hope a senior player gave him a bake as defence is an area he need to improve in. I hope so because that indicates the sort of culture Its time noted was embedded at the swans

Sure it is a practice match but that is absolutely no excuse. And i'm not wanting to bag out Oliver, who is an out and out star. 

But Oliver is senior player - and should be setting an example to his teammates and in particular the young players', who must look up to him. And it is hard for him to hold teammates to standard he doesn't reach. 

To be honest, it is for reasons related to culture that I have come to appreciate what Jack Viney brings to the team more and more. He can't hold a candle to Oliver talent wise but he would have made the block.

And maybe Jack held most of them to account when he was captain and most of them didnt want to hear it and so didnt re-elect him as captain? Maybe?

I hope this not going to go on for the whole season. Seriously! Throw away lines from the media and people with self interest is one thing but the minute by minute, week on week, month on month and year on year assassination of our players is poor commentary and unhealthy.

50 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

People bagging out McClure for making cheap lazy comments is part of our problem. We don’t expect enough of our club as a whole. 
yes Sellers is a cranky old bastard, but he  did win 3 Flags in 4 years as the CHF, which in his day was the Dominant Position on the Ground 

Rather than bag him out, i prefer to listen, because whatever we have done over the last 56 years (and counting) has failed. 
Do all of our Players give 100% to themselves and their teammates?

I have my doubts (even a little bit off is enough)

Max has to set the standards and hold them. 

Maclure was a good footballer in his day, which was last in 1986 .... 35 years ago! 

However I'm not necessarily sure that he's the one to be talking about off-field culture either, given his reputation during his playing days. The reason he has the nickname 'Sellars' is because his messy behaviour when drinking reminded them of Peter Sellars. Is this the guy who you want to be lectured to about culture?!?!

Did he give 100% of himself? Reports are mixed. 

As for listening to him rather than bagging him, the reason I'm bagging him out is because I have listened to him! I'm bagging him out on the basis of what he says. And what he says is terrible. 

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by Axis of Bob

We've been the media's favourite whipping boy (rightly so sadly) for as long as I can remember following our beloved club, and that wont change until the day we lift the premiership cup...

20 minutes ago, CYB said:

And maybe Jack held most of them to account when he was captain and most of them didnt want to hear it and so didnt re-elect him as captain? Maybe?

Rings true. Sadly

22 minutes ago, drdrake said:

I agree with your comment about the intensity and this should be a non negotiable, we are very hot and cold with our intensity levels.

On Skills, I can't believe that we have so many bad kicks in our side.  How can one club draft so many players that fail to execute a fundamental skill of the game.  Our recruiting team went over board for 3-4 years drafting contested ball winning players and to me it was more important to be able to win the ball at the contest then disposal.  Top level players should be good to elite kicks, I reckon we only have a handful of players that would be rated as good AFL kicks, we don't have any elite kickers on our list Salem would be the closest we have, most would be poor to average.  Once a player hit 18/19yo it is bloody hard to improve kicks especially under AFL pressure.

Is drafting the wrong players culture, no it is mismanagement.  Our drafting was extremely poorly managed for so long and then the development once they got to the club was poor.  We should have 10-15 top 25 picks that would all be 25-30 years old running around for us over the past few years but we don't as we under developed and drafted the wrong players.

could not agree more Dr

and now the game has changed again leaving us further behind with the emphasis on quality kicking and speed out of defence and through the middle

Even sparrow and Jordan are plodders

The recruiters have just got it so wrong on every level team will cut us to shreds with our lack od speed and high press BS game plan

8 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

Maclure was a good footballer in his day, which was last in 1986 .... 35 years ago! 

However I'm not necessarily sure that he's the one to be talking about off-field culture either, given his reputation during his playing days. The reason he has the nickname 'Sellars' is because of the Peter Sellars movie 'The Party'. Is this the guy who you want to be lectured to about culture?!?!

Did he give 100% of himself? Reports are mixed. 

As for listening to him rather than bagging him, the reason I'm bagging him out is because I have listened to him! I'm bagging him out on the basis of what he says. And what he says is terrible. 

I can't stand McClure. For all the reasons you have pointed out. 

I can't believe the ABC employ him.

Only Shaw comes close to being as thick and out of touch. 

Hard to disagree with much he says. I actually think we need these type articles to actually put some fuel in our belly.  It usually takes either the media, or the president to fire us up.  We play better when unsociable.  After a few wins the media start some feel good articles and way too often we put in an insipid performance vs a team we should be beating.  They did not allow us to play "Our" way is a load of bollocks that happens too much also. Win ugly, win pretty, put in 100% and try and win every contest. Tackle with intent, trust you teammates, shepherd/block, stop blazing away and kick to advantage.  

We have a few guys who give a 100% on any given day.  

We don't hold each other accountable for anything less than 100% effort, nor does our coach.  Thinking Melksham/Harmes/Brayshaw/Tmac for starters last year.  They should have all been dropped multiple times.  They were too lazy to chase and that is 100% lack of effort....it happened too often. These are senior players showing an example to the young guys coming through.  It is disgusting to me, but it does come down to culture and not many other teams would accept the lack of effort, and not being prepared to do the basics.

We don't seem to be able to play very smart football.  In 2018 we had almost the perfect game to scare anyone.  Why have we gone so far away from this?? We have tried to add layers to the game and they forgot the basics of football....it is ridiculous.  We have played football like an under 12 team all hunting the ball, with no discipline.  We tried stacking our backline to stop the bleeding.  We quite often don't pressure the ball carrier, most of the team are frantically running backwards to catch their man.  Opposition just loops around, or gets out the back and we tend to not pressure the ball carrier for much of the field. We give ground for free. This is game plan, lack of effort, or low footy IQ, quite likely all three.

We have the players to really start setting the standards.  They need to get angry, like us supporters that are starved of success and can do nothing but vent, or hope.  They have control of the narrative by virtue of their actions.  I hope they all are reading this thread and getting thoroughly angry at many of the comments and make a pact to never give anything less than 100%, for any reason.  If you think one of your teammates is not putting in, ffs tell them. Demand more of each other.

Supporters want nothing more than success.  We probably want it more than the players do.  This needs to flip. They control the narrative for good, bad, and everywhere inbetween.

Get angry Demons.  McClure would have.

Groan. We aren’t soft. Do we have a crap coach? Yes. Is our list overrated? Yes. This has nothing to do with culture. 

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Not a fan of the bloke, but hard to argue...

“The problem is the culture’s all wrong. Which is the biggest-name player that’s ever been dropped at Melbourne? I can’t think of one. Because it’s soft, a soft culture they’ve got.

That's harsh, Jack Watts dropped himself......

4 hours ago, deelusions from afar said:

Disagree - I have heard him stick the boots into the Dees for years.  He makes these big statements but really has no idea what he's talking about.

I'm not saying everything is fine with our culture but I won't take notice of what Maclure thinks as I see him as a Dinosaur of a different era.

If you listen to him talk about any team (not just Melbourne) he wheels out the same narratives when things are going poorly for a team - he doesn't do the research or keep up with the changes, just shoots his mouth off and that's enough to start a chain of articles.

Do people seriously think that Max Gawn isn't "doing it"?  Do you think the senior players aren't getting together and talking about it?  Gimme a break.  The AFL is a very competitive industry where 9 teams lose every weekend - we're in the preseason with half our first choice team not playing against a nearly full strength team that will be in contention this year.

Forget the preseason what about last season?

It's a bit rich listening to someone from Carlton talk about culture when Blues players drank to excess and caused mayhem when 'socialising' with each other and the club made payments under the table, cheating the system. 

Yeah, real good culture. Thanks Mark, you've said it before, come up with something new to waffle about.