On 03/09/2020 at 22:52, leave it to deever said:

  On 03/09/2020 at 10:06, Roger Mellie said:

we relatively are high on footy talent but scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to footy intelligence. Then there are the selection issues.

Used to think do as well but maybe we are all biased.

I think all AFL supporters overrate their own players, but every knowledgeable opposition supporter I speak to has the same opinion - MFC's problems have nothing to do with talent.

We've got 4 players who, at various stages deep into the season, have been genuinely in the conversation for All Australian selection - Petracca, Gawn, May and Oliver. There's a decent chance all 4 will make the squad of 40 - our top level talent is better than plenty of teams that will play finals this year.  That should be a silver lining, but to me it's deeply concerning.

I didn't watch any of last night's game, but we've all seen it countless times before. We have 5 - 6 players who try their guts out every week (Gawn, Oliver, May, Langdon, Petracca,?), a group who wake up on game day and decide whether they will bother trying or not (Melksham, Salem, Fritsch, Weideman, Lever, etc), and a bunch who simply aren't AFL standard (Smith, Neal-Bullen, Spargo, Brown, etc).

When we have the majority of the team working hard we look capable of playing good football and matching it with the better teams, but we have far too many players who pick and choose when to put in.

For me this all comes back to our putrid list management and drafting. We give long term contracts on good money to fringe players (Kolodjashnij, Vandenberg) and keep proven failures around for years after their use by date. Hunt has been on the list for 7 years, Neal-Bullen for 6, Vandenberg for 6, J.Wagner for 5, Smith for 5. Even Jetta, who we love, has only played more than 9 games five times in his last 11 seasons. Why has Nietschke, a speculative mid range selection who can't get on the field, been promised another year?

We should be turning over the list regularly and finding players who are capable of being consistent contributors at AFL level. To be out of the 2019 draft after the second round last year was inexcusable. That's to say nothing of the ridiculous trade to get Pickett that cost us a top 10 pick this year. 

Players like Salem and Melksham know there is no competition for their spots in the team so they are happy to cruise along, taking a nice pay cheque each week. If Goodwin had any balls he would have dropped Melksham in the first month of the season and set the standards.

What's the bet that most of Vandenberg, Hunt, Hannen, Pickett, and Lockhart return this week as we shuffle the deckchairs again? Then we'll get to the end of the year and give new contracts to the likes of Bedford, Chandler and Dunkley who have done nothing to deserve them.

  On 03/09/2020 at 23:29, Die Hard Demon said:

It's not the worst idea. Although it HAS to come down to not being coached / set up correctly around stoppages. Protecting teammates and space is clearly not instinctual from our players. It's see ball get ball and wanting to be the hero. This is a coaching and building good habits fail. Goodwin and the midfield coaches have had years to get it right to no avail. 

Pickett is a natural rover of the ball at stoppages and throw ins. As is langdon but we need him on the wing.

Still filthy about this game. Everything to play for and the club as a collective unit pizt it down the drain. It's already been touched on but:

Selection: Wagner, Smith, OMac, Jones, Melksham 

So many bizarre selection choices, Jones was so obviously hampered by that quad... even in the second quarter he didn't want to kick on his right leg. He cost us two goals trying to kick on his left. Forget the 300, he's costing us 4 points at he moment. 

Melksham has been gifted games all year and I'm sick to death of it. Get him out of the team. The first three are not AFL standard.

We are just front running losers who cannot scrap wins against teams we have more talent then. Sydney's kids wanted it more. Simple as that.

Get stuffed MFC.

 

 

 

  On 03/09/2020 at 14:56, dee-tox said:

He's playing the media game which is what he'd be told to do.

With that said, he again looked a poor leader tonight. Part of the problem and appearing to provide no leadership in the second quarter when we were screaming out for it.

The laughing after the game thing was atrocious.

May should be captain next year

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:03, Die Hard Demon said:

Do you watch much of other teams with these so called "stars" .. The Martin's, Fyfe's, Bont's, Cripps, Dangers' of this world are some of the BIGGEST clanger kings going around. It doesn't seem to hinder their teams ability to win games. 

Yeh I do, these guys you mentioned are a complete class above any one we have.  Cripps I don't see as a star same a Oliver gets the ball but just can't kick.  The others you mention destroy teams, Martin is one of the best kicks in the game, Fyfe is the best all rounded Footballer in the AFL, Bont and Danger just win the Footy and get team mates the ball.  The don't miss a no pressure 20m kick to a leading forward by 10ms.  All those player you mention are blokes that will take ownership to try and take control of a game.  We try hard but just lack that class player

Edited September 4, 20204 yr by drdrake

  On 03/09/2020 at 21:23, pitmaster said:

Unlike some here I didn't mind Oscar going forward. We had to hide him somewhere because he was hurting us so much in defence.

Maybe Goodwin has worked out that we cannot afford him.

Just sit him on the bench and play a man down. Would have been better. Smith could go sit next to him.

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:19, drdrake said:

Yeh I do, these guys you mentioned are a complete class above any one we have.  Cripps I don't see as a star same a Oliver gets the ball but just can't kick.  The others you mention destroy teams, Martin is one of the best kicks in the game, Fyfe is the best all rounded Footballer in the AFL, Bont and Danger just when the Footy and get team mates the ball.  The don't miss a no pressure 20m kick to a leading forward by 10ms

ohhh but they do.. I thought it'd be interesting to have a closer look at avg disposal efficiency stats across 2020. 

It's very interesting.. 

Adam Treloar: 56.3%
Trent Cotchin: 59%
Luke Parker: 60.2%
Patrick Dangerfield: 61.7%
Tim Kelly: 62.9%
Jack Viney: 65%
Marcus Bontempelli: 65.4%
Steele Sidebottom: 65.7%
Dustin Martin: 66.2%
Patrick Cripps: 66.9%
Angus Brayshaw: 68.2%
Christian Petracca: 68.5%

You can decide which ones are "stars" or not.

Edited September 4, 20204 yr by Die Hard Demon

  On 03/09/2020 at 22:29, Ethan Tremblay said:

The wind/weather had nothing to do with it, Sydney’s disposal wasn’t great either, they simply wanted it more and went in with a plan. 

Exactly look at the pressure they put on our ball users from the 1st bounce. Even the goal Brayshaw kicked he had about 3 or 4 Swans ready to tackle him. Meanwhile we just let the Swans waltz through middle of our zone with handballs with no pressure just "corralling" them through. Pathetic

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:08, poita said:

I didn't watch any of last night's game, but we've all seen it countless times before. We have 5 - 6 players who try their guts out every week (Gawn, Oliver, May, Langdon, Petracca,?), a group who wake up on game day and decide whether they will bother trying or not (Melksham, Salem, Fritsch, Weideman, Lever, etc), and a bunch who simply aren't AFL standard (Smith, Neal-Bullen, Spargo, Brown, etc).

When we have the majority of the team working hard we look capable of playing good football and matching it with the better teams, but we have far too many players who pick and choose when to put in.

For me this all comes back to our putrid list management and drafting. We give long term contracts on good money to fringe players (Kolodjashnij, Vandenberg) and keep proven failures around for years after their use by date. Hunt has been on the list for 7 years, Neal-Bullen for 6, Vandenberg for 6, J.Wagner for 5, Smith for 5. Even Jetta, who we love, has only played more than 9 games five times in his last 11 seasons. Why has Nietschke, a speculative mid range selection who can't get on the field, been promised another year?

We should be turning over the list regularly and finding players who are capable of being consistent contributors at AFL level. To be out of the 2019 draft after the second round last year was inexcusable. That's to say nothing of the ridiculous trade to get Pickett that cost us a top 10 pick this year. 

Players like Salem and Melksham know there is no competition for their spots in the team so they are happy to cruise along, taking a nice pay cheque each week. If Goodwin had any balls he would have dropped Melksham in the first month of the season and set the standards.

What's the bet that most of Vandenberg, Hunt, Hannen, Pickett, and Lockhart return this week as we shuffle the deckchairs again? Then we'll get to the end of the year and give new contracts to the likes of Bedford, Chandler and Dunkley who have done nothing to deserve them.

I hope you keep posting because you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. I had the opportunity recently to have lunch with a top line coach of another sport who is a keen observer of MFC. He said almost exactly what you have said here about the cattle. Why do clubs like Geelong have lists absolutely loaded with elite players such as Ablett, Dangerfield, Selwood and Hawkins and we get players like Fritsch, Oscar, Neal-Bullen, Melksham, etc? Melbourne seems to think of itself as a second rate, fringe club. We don’t even have a proper home base. This, in my childhood, was the greatest team in the competition. That’s why my Dad and I started following them. For the past 56 years they’ve been a basket case while we’ve watched teams like Hawthorn, Carlton (in the past) and Richmond dominate the competition. WTF is wrong? Why can’t the management get it through their heads that this is a top line club not a second rate suburban team?

We lost 10,000 2021 members last night. Drastic changes need to happen now, not off season, NOW! This weak crap has been happening for too bloody long and its the whole 'ahhh typical Melbourne'. If Barlett and Pert are going to put actions to their words it has to happen NOW!

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:24, Die Hard Demon said:

ohhh but they do.. I thought it'd be interesting to have a closer look at avg disposal efficiency stats across 2020. 

It's very interesting.. 

Adam Treloar: 56.3%
Trent Cotchin: 59%
Luke Parker: 60.2%
Patrick Dangerfield: 61.7%
Tim Kelly: 62.9%
Jack Viney: 65%
Marcus Bontempelli: 65.4%
Steele Sidebottom: 65.7%
Dustin Martin: 66.2%
Patrick Cripps: 66.9%
Angus Brayshaw: 68.2%
Christian Petracca: 68.5%

You can decide which ones are "stars" or not.

The only stars in that list Danger, Bont, Martin.  Don't get me wrong a lot of good players on there but Stars win matches and turn games over a number of seasons. 

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:36, Stevienic23 said:

We lost 10,000 2021 members last night. Drastic changes need to happen now, not off season, NOW! This weak crap has been happening for too bloody long and its the whole 'ahhh typical Melbourne'. If Barlett and Pert are going to put actions to their words it has to happen NOW!

What changes do you suggest? 

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:37, drdrake said:

The only stars in that list Danger, Bont, Martin.  Don't get me wrong a lot of good players on there but Stars win matches and turn games over a number of seasons. 

Yeah but my point is that they are likely to make as many if not more turnovers than guys like Petracca. You specified that you need to be hitting targets more frequently to be considered A Grade. These guys throughout a game are more likely to miss more targets than Tracc. The reason they are superstars, is because they have MORE support around them. The fringe players that do their part. Our fringe players were basically ball watching last night. 

p.s. Dustin Martin has the most clangers in the comp

Edited September 4, 20204 yr by Die Hard Demon

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:27, Coq au vin said:

Why can’t the management get it through their heads that this is a top line club not a second rate suburban team?

Because MFC is a club with a supporter base traditionally from the ‘top end of town’, who have traditionally had other interests and pursuits as well as football, to occupy them. Clubs like Richmond and Collingwood have grown, because traditionally football was their only release from the frustrations and realities of a hard, daily life. Their footballers were also cut from the same cloth. If those players did not perform, the supporters would let them know about it - not through social media, as it is today, but out and about in public. The club was the badge of the suburb, so no-one was going to let it down.

I realise times have changed now and these demographics have moved along, but I believe that these traditions are so deeply cast within sporting  clubs, that they transcend time, somewhat.

Problem is, there is still a fair bit of Gentlemen vs Players associated with our club and not enough hunger and desperation. 

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:43, Dannyz said:

What changes do you suggest? 

For a start the coaching panel and about 10 players need to go

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:44, Die Hard Demon said:

Yeah but my point is that they are likely to make as many if not more turnovers than guys like Petracca. You specified that you need to be hitting targets more frequently to be considered A Grade. These guys throughout a game are more likely to miss more targets than Tracc. The reason they are superstars, is because they have MORE support around them. The fringe players that do their part. Our fringe players were basically ball watching last night. 

p.s. Dustin Martin has the most clangers in the comp

Bull, they are stars because they are unbelievable consistent players.  They impact games and can turn the flow of a game.  Tracc has the potential to do this but needs to do it consistantly.  They make the players around them better.

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:51, drdrake said:

Bull, they are stars because they are unbelievable consistent players.  They impact games and can turn the flow of a game.  Tracc has the potential to do this but needs to do it consistantly.  They make the players around them better.

We veered off what I was initially trying to say. When these players have down days (and trust me, they certainly have OFF games), the fringe players lift and play their part to get their team across the line. We are not a 22 man squad. We are a lets pray Trac, Clarry and Gawny are ON today otherwise we're screwed 

To be a Demon supporter since 64 (as I have) you need to be tough and have thick skin plus have plenty of resilience. Most of us have these attributes. PITY THE PLAYERS DON'T

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:27, Coq au vin said:

I hope you keep posting because you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. I had the opportunity recently to have lunch with a top line coach of another sport who is a keen observer of MFC. He said almost exactly what you have said here about the cattle. Why do clubs like Geelong have lists absolutely loaded with elite players such as Ablett, Dangerfield, Selwood and Hawkins and we get players like Fritsch, Oscar, Neal-Bullen, Melksham, etc? Melbourne seems to think of itself as a second rate, fringe club. We don’t even have a proper home base. This, in my childhood, was the greatest team in the competition. That’s why my Dad and I started following them. For the past 56 years they’ve been a basket case while we’ve watched teams like Hawthorn, Carlton (in the past) and Richmond dominate the competition. WTF is wrong? Why can’t the management get it through their heads that this is a top line club not a second rate suburban team?

Classic stuff from our ol' coq.

Compares the Geelong superstars with our fringe players.  Yeah, that's a spot on analogy.

  On 03/09/2020 at 22:19, Rusty Nails said:

I doubt it.  We would need SG to go to see No-Mac out of the team in a permanent sense i reckon.  Him & Macca seemed to back No-Mac in big time over Dunny years back and SG would lose face if this one fails.

These two are way too pally for my liking, regardless of how good or ordinary the player might be.  And most would know my thoughts on No-Mac here.  Not a good look.

Why would you put No-Mac up forward last night?  If you were gonna sacrifice down back it had to be May up forward and shortly after half time if we were to have any chance of turning it around.  Better to pull No-Mac and just play Tomlinson in this place if he had nowhere to hide him surely.

Anyone watching till half time could see Weid was having a mare (along with most up forward but he's the focal point and where you generate most of your goals from either directly or off the contested spill...we got neither).

As witnessed last night, no matter how good May is as a defender, if you team defence sucks AND your forward line fails to fire you are completely stuffed at both ends, even against mediocre opposition who decide to put in their best effort.

Melk, Fritta & Weid ... Zero goals between them!

Didn't watch the last 10 min but when did May come on?  Immediately we got a result?  As much as Melk is handy up the field for hitting a target inside 50, aside from the odd cameo on rare occasions which makes him handy in a downhill sense, if the team isn't flying he can be bog ordinary, especially defensively.

Fritta another one trick pony.  Both of those blokes the ball hits the deck what do we get 95% of the time?

Weid not much better at ground ball gets but not expected to be given the size/position, passable if given the ball on the receive.  Very lazy Weid last night? playing from behind and not getting to the drop when players are coming out of the middle under pressure.  And not the first time?  Wants it on a platter or not at all?

Seriously when you have to think about (and in an emergency do) switching your best defender up forward because your forward line has completely failed (and not just once, last week was barely much better aside from a couple of conversions from Weid) means we are still in a world of trouble forward of centre.

I've said it before and i still wasn't convinced even after winning 4 of the 5 up till the Saints, we STILL don't have a reliable genuine KF who we can depend on week in week out to kick at least a couple and clunk a few much needed marks up forward.

I tell you what though, there is one bloke who can and could do it if we had one more dour defender of his size down back and that bloke is Steven May.

This bloke has ticker and can play forward and seems (from what i've witnessed) to be a VN kick.  Reads the ball beautifully and knows how to position himself to outmark / outpoint his opponent.

This season to me is pretty much shot.  What the hell would we do even if we managed to get it in the eight?  We'd be straight out with this inept forward line i reckon.

Why not consider May up forward and play Tomlinson in his place?  Might be the coaching move of the season.  Ok so it might fail as well.  We would know pretty quickly i'd think.

What have we got to lose if it comes off?  What have we got to gain if it works?  May would be hard to stop up forward imo and also get ball to the drop more often vs Weid (more a lead up forward).

Would certainly set the cat amongst the opp pigeons.  A few defenders might be hearing footsteps with him running at full tilt.

Would also add some much needed leadership and a fabulous focal point for our blokes to get it to, especially if they know he will kick 3 to 4 on occasions and quite possibly be the edge on the day (incentive).

Let's face it... whatever we have now aint gonna cut it against most in the eight, bar maybe GWS and/or the Pies IF we get them at a lowish ebb.  And after that?  We'll get crunched as we stand now with this forward line up.

moving may forward would a bit like moving neitz from chb to ff worked great but there is no one to replace him at fb

  On 04/09/2020 at 00:43, Dannyz said:

What changes do you suggest? 

Any combination of:

1. Walk Goodwin

2. Walk Mahoney

3. Major changes at selection. Ie Viney out, Jones out (for good)

4. No more social media - this isn't directed at our marketing team, they have a harder job than Dan Andrews at the moment but we dont need to see fluff pieces, back from hell, behind the scenes BS! It just creates hope which we know will come crashing down

5. Send the wives and girlfriends back to Melbourne (unfair collateral damage I know but I'm bloody livid) 

6. Recruit players & staff that know what hard work and success looks like (this one is obviously off season). We should be pillaging Hawthorn.

We have a big enough fan base that our club could be anything. We outnumbered Geelong and Hawthorn in those finals in 2018. Those numbers don't convert to memberships because [censored] like this happens far too often. 

In Bartletts own words he said he wanted us to be like the New York Yankees. Well its time for action as the Yankees wouldn't stand for this crap!

I just managed to catch Goody's presser.

I don't know why his comments aggravate me so much. Maybe because it exposes his lack of knowledge - the fact that he doesn't even know he's been out-coached?

He talked about how we lost it in the first half was also off. I mean, yeah, we created chances but we were playing 16 on the ladder! I'd like to think we created some chances, but I think our skills were still really poor. Many of our boys were unsighted and his coaching 'masterstroke' was OMac up forward? I dunno, I thought he was as usual pretty oblivious to the fact that we were pretty poor throughout. Not just for a half.

Ugh.

  On 03/09/2020 at 22:29, Ethan Tremblay said:

The wind/weather had nothing to do with it, Sydney’s disposal wasn’t great either, they simply wanted it more and went in with a plan. 

The most important disposal is the kick for goal.

Last week we won because in perfect conditions we kicked straight from set shots and the Saints shanked multiple easy set shots

This week in the wind Sydney barely missed  a set shot. We couldn't kick a set shot. That is the difference in the game right there. 

Wind plays havoc with poor kicking technique. And poor kicking technique is one thing we have in spades.

  On 04/09/2020 at 01:00, Die Hard Demon said:

We veered off what I was initially trying to say. When these players have down days (and trust me, they certainly have OFF games), the fringe players lift and play their part to get their team across the line. We are not a 22 man squad. We are a lets pray Trac, Clarry and Gawny are ON today otherwise we're screwed 

It all starts from them, if we can't control the ball in the middle we have no chance of winning games.  You are right on fringe players but the issue is we have no depth in the midfield so if these guys have off days we don't have options to go in there.  If we can't win the midfield battle our positional players will have limited chances to impact the game.

The bottom line is until we can get better in the middle, improve our forward 50m entries we will continue to put up results like this.  Starts with Gawn/Oliver/Brayshaw/Petracca/Viney they got to get better ball into our forward 50