Just to add to the Harmes debate:

He got 9 coaches votes as a midfielder in round 23 2018. (V GWS)

He got 8 coaches votes as a midfielder in the week 1 elimination final 2018 (V Geelong)

Now our master mind of a coach drops a valuable midfielder who’s been playing out of position since August 2019.

Lads, reading this thread has been the best start to my weekend. its so amusing scrolling through the waffle some of you lot spit out.

IMO the team we selected is very satisfactory.

Gawn for Preuss yes obviously. TMac out for Brown, yes. The modern day key forward has to be agile athletic, he's not that and his form has not warranted selection, easy wins carried him through selection for the last month. Brown can offer alot more than an Optus Weagles game is ever going to suggest and definitely can pinch in the ruck, so it's ok, Weid will be in the goalsquare. 

Fritsch knows his error, redeemed himself booting "4 or 5 or 6" in the scratch match, we'll be seeing him next week (for hannan imo). But definitely cant fit him, melky and hannan in one side. 

We definitely needed Rivers speed, the Harmes move to midfield for Sparrow and Rivers back made sense. Jones is welcomed back and when Harmes returns next week i think AVB makes way. OMac will be straight back out for Sydney and Freo where the matchups arent favourable and we can look forward to Hore/Petty in his role next season. 

JWags is just filling a hole and wont be around for much longer let him play who cares, Lockhart clearly needed a rest in the coaches opinion and there wasnt an obvious replacement except Jets who i personally woulda loved to have seen with the occasion and all. 

Lets all just relax, enjoy the boys cracking in without too much expectation (cmon lets be realistic) and hopefully goody shows some emotion for a change

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Bennell is just being managed with a plan throughout the year. Will be back for the Freo game, small chance for Sydney.

 

Interestingly, in the Coll Melb 2s review HB was the only listed player who wasn’t mentioned. Nor has he been talked about much since being dropped. They are either carefully managing his PR, trying to quieten the supporter outrage about his non-selection until he gets into a spot they’re happy with. Or he is playing shabby, lazy football like his last game in the jumper 

28 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I'm interested in the harmes decision. Clearly playing badly and clearly not playing the way the coach wants. 

It seems clear to nearly everyone here that he's not a half back and he's a better on baller/tagger But we also don't know exactly the roles/instructions he's been given

What's the verdict from ppl here. A bad move by the coach or should harmes lift his game and do what the team demands or is he stiff for being played out of position? 

I think Harmes needs to lift. There's no doubt about that in my mind, but he's also being played out of position. He could play half back much better than he is, and really rebound hard off half back, but I think he'd be more valuable up forward.

5 minutes ago, Bravo Oscar, Bravo said:

Can't understand the haters for Josh Wagner.  Hope he has a stand out game tomorrow..  

 

Hope they all have stand out games tomorrow. Will need to.

3 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

Can only assume Tomlinson is moving back up to the wing with the OMac selection.

So the Saints will be switching, kicking out to that side and running in waves through there most of the night then?

Harmes is more of a player than AVB is at the moment. I’d rather him on a wing or in the guts. Silly call from Simon. 
 

Wagner will play forward. 
 

Max improves us. 
 

Jones and AVB in the same side doesn’t please me.

 

Rivers is a ripper and I prefer his ball use and composure over Lockhart’s

Well it use of the squad which I have been asking for. Just not sure if it's the right use at the right time.

Goodwin needs a good win.

2 hours ago, The Jackson 6 said:

Less convinced we need fast players to contain Saints. Their ball movement has been exceptional, not their leg speed. Good structure can contain that. 

But now they don't even need good ball movement, they can just run it.

The Dogs in posession last week took on the man on the mark way more than normal, because they know they won't get caught the majority of the time. 

Our lack of pace gives the opposition more options in attack and encourages proactive defence.

16 minutes ago, Buzzy said:

But now they don't even need good ball movement, they can just run it.

The Dogs in posession last week took on the man on the mark way more than normal, because they know they won't get caught the majority of the time. 

Our lack of pace gives the opposition more options in attack and encourages proactive defence.

No, the Dogs still needed good ball movement. In order to adequately switch as they did for most of the day, that's good ball movement.

Just listened to Egan’s review of our practice game. Fritsch liked 6 goals! I know the club is about setting standards, but it wasn’t as If he was out on the [censored]. I feel we need his goal scoring power to win and keep this season alive. Mitch Hannan needs to step up. 

15 minutes ago, Buzzy said:

But now they don't even need good ball movement, they can just run it.

The Dogs in posession last week took on the man on the mark way more than normal, because they know they won't get caught the majority of the time. 

Our lack of pace gives the opposition more options in attack and encourages proactive defence.

Great point Buzzy.  Once this happens regularly you can pretty much break up and ruin any team's defensive plans and with enough speed just run riot from one end to the other as the Dogs did on multiple occasions.

People on here saying foot speed doesn't matter.  Maybe not as much in the normal format but in this shortened one it's probably even more crucial.  A team with a number of speedy players will benefit from even more recuperation / rest and shorter quarters (even less need for somewhat slower players who might excel on the stamina side).

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

I suspect this is from a source connected with Harmes?

If so, whilst this could all be true, it could also be the way Harmes is perceiving the situation, and the reality may not be as severe.

If it is true, I think it's an awful call from Goodwin. It's bad enough that we can't find room for him in the midfield (Sparrow's been getting minutes there this year - so it can't simply be a lack of opportunities), but IMO Harmes is far better suited to a forward role than defence.

Totally baffled by what we have done to Harmes.  How James Harmes has been transformed from 3rd B&F in 2018 & 2019 to a fringe player is nothing short of a disgrace.

It has been touted as a strength of the team that we have a multitude of players that can hold their own and be rotated through the midfield.  I also hardley think it's disputed that Harmes is our best run-with tagger to shut down an opposition's dominant mid.  However:

1. We have barely rotated our mids; and

2..  There have been numerous occasions this season when an opposition midfeild has got on top of us without a serious attempt to shut down their prime movers.  (Lions, Power and Bulldogs the most obvious ones).

 

To me, the second point reeks a bit of arrogance, like we think Oliver, Patracca, Viney and Brayshaw feeding off Gawn are better than anyone else's midfeild that we expect our guys to offensively get on top of the opposition every week and have no plan B for when the tables are turned.  If there are any signs of an opposition side getting on top in the guts, Harmes and/or Viney should be sent to their most dangerous on baller.  That we didn't tag Lachie Neale and others with Harmes is ridiculous.  We probably beat Brisbane if we tagged Neale with Harmes.

I also agree that trying to play Harmes as a defender is a dud move.  He's hardley Jordan Lewis like in his abbility to read the play and position himself defensively.

I really think we should be looking to rotate all of Harmes, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Patracca through the forward line.  They all have pretty good goal sense, kicking ability, tackling and marking attributes as forwards.  None of them have particularly good attributes as permanent backman. 

I still also rate Harmes highly for his line breaking ability through the midfield.  Asides from Patracca, I think he has the best ability within our team to break away from/through congestion in the middle of the ground with strength and speed.  He may also deliver into the forward line with more accuracy than Patracca.

Such a waste.

Edited August 28, 20204 yr by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

21 minutes ago, A F said:

No, the Dogs still needed good ball movement. In order to adequately switch as they did for most of the day, that's good ball movement.

But you still need enough players with half decent leg speed / pace to shut/close down that switch (ball movement) as much as possible AF.

Without that there is little doubt in the kicker's mind that they'll make most of their switch or 45 kicks.  As a result, there's little perceived pressure, let alone real pressure, which must make life a dream for an opp's defence as witnessed last week.

57 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Incredibly stiff IMO. Wasn't much of a footballer before the midfield/tagging turnaround tbh, but seemed to have found his niche there and played some good footy that helped us win. Add all that to his poor form and us crying out for a tagger a couple of times this year and it's just another example of the stubborn coach we have. Goodwin has told Harmes he won't be playing midfield no matter what and he needs to make half back work, BUT add to that the fact he's not getting great direction from Goodwin (who wouldn't even discuss his dropping with him properly).

As it stands, he's a decent chance to request a trade end of season. That's a real 'heart and soul' type who grew up a Dees supporter, so that should paint a picture.

No chance in requesting a trade Nev he will take it on the chin and collect his thoughts freshen up and wait for a call up. he will be back soon enough. We have a few 4 day breaks and will be needed soon enough.. 

 

3 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

No chance in requesting a trade Nev he will take it on the chin and collect his thoughts freshen up and wait for a call up. he will be back soon enough. We have a few 4 day breaks and will be needed soon enough..

I thought the same thing until recently mate.

43 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I thought the same thing until recently mate.

Was being chased by other clubs last year, particularly Collingwood before he locked in another 5 years. Will not happen.

2 minutes ago, Beetle said:

Was being chased by other clubs last year, particularly Collingwood before he locked in another 5 years. Will not happen.

Freo and Geelong were after him last year, they'll come knocking again IMO.

Again, I thought it wouldn't happen either, I even said that here, but this isn't based on my own opinion.

5 hours ago, Jack7 said:

I was at Metricon on Saturday and i watched Harmes all day off half back and he's a fish out of water back there,gotta get Rivers back there,he's a much better kick,Harmes is an awful set shot for goal so the only role he can play is a tagger,which i don't mind because he oftens gets 25+ himself.Harmes should've tagged the Bont or Macrae.I have no idea what Wagner will bring,he turns it over so much.

 

The Bulldogs kicked 6 unanswered in the third,2 of those goals were coast to coast,watch tonight how the Cats play when the Bulldogs are coming out of D50,Cats will be shoulder to shoulder all over the ground,we were playing 5 metres off our man as usual and Caleb Daniel,JJ etc. were kicking at 90+ % efficiency and carved us up.

 

Sadly Saints will do the same.

Harmes at half back is effective as when Jack Watts played there. A bloody witches hat.

8 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

We wouldn't bemoan him if they were six we agreed with.

You're sounding bitter but not  particularly optimistic  ?

10 hours ago, dimmy said:

And we really performed well against. It was not pace that beat us, it was the fact they got the ball and used it better in the 2nd half.

 

It was twofold Donny.

Pace and run snd carry!!!

First kick or handball to outside runner who then transferred to another outside runner snd thence to their forward  line where they marked a pass or were clever enough to pressure our defence to panic or at best stifle the ball into a ball up.

Saints have greater pace In foot speed  than Doggies and kick far more.

Mids must be on our game and Gawny in defence marking mode with quick handball to keep game flowing.

9 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

2018 ✅

2017, 2019, 2020 ❌❌❌

Now, that is an interesting statistic ... intent is clearly visible, as well. Makes it all very easy to agree with and reinforces assessments of TMac's efforts, form and effectiveness. A comparison with his brother would be a little bit Queenslanderish (Fourex plus two and a miniscule tick at the start). 

Edited August 28, 20204 yr by Deemania since 56

7 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I really think we should be looking to rotate all of Harmes, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Patracca through the forward line.  They all have pretty good goal sense, kicking ability, tackling and marking attributes as forwards.  None of them have particularly good attributes as permanent backman. 

This is a very good concept and onfield rotations are a key to innovative problem-solving instead of mundane similarities that lead us to so many defeats. Agreed that each of the listed players has the attributes to so contribute. Such rotations strengthen our capacities - our third ranked players are reinforced - rather than be expected to hold down a position or role unsupported. This assists those 'newbies' (in general) to ascend to 'mop up duties' as required and the creative ones will begin to shine in terms of reliabilities. 

8 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Incredibly stiff IMO. Wasn't much of a footballer before the midfield/tagging turnaround tbh, but seemed to have found his niche there and played some good footy that helped us win. Add all that to his poor form and us crying out for a tagger a couple of times this year and it's just another example of the stubborn coach we have. Goodwin has told Harmes he won't be playing midfield no matter what and he needs to make half back work, BUT add to that the fact he's not getting great direction from Goodwin (who wouldn't even discuss his dropping with him properly).

As it stands, he's a decent chance to request a trade end of season. That's a real 'heart and soul' type who grew up a Dees supporter, so that should paint a picture.

Is this legit?

How does this information exactly get leaked from within the inner sanctum 8 hours after team selection?

Something doesn't add up...

how do you end up late when all you need to do is follow your mates out the door ... seems odd this one ... makes you think there is more to it ... leadership group would have probably voted on it with coaching staff