Jesse Hogan on the way out at Freo?

[BDA 22,334]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:31 AM, Ohio USA - David said:

There is no room in a Football Club for player individualism. 

Dusty Martin

[Pates 9,625]

4 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Jason McCartney from GWS was interviewed on SEN before midday today and provided a highly qualified "yes" as an answer to whether GWS was considering Hogan. In effect, he said GWS was looking at everyone that might be available, including Tom McDonald. It was either an honest straight bat response and means that GWS is no more or less interested in Hogan than in any other available player or he's being dishonest and they're red-hot to go after Hogan but don't want to disclose their interest.

In other words, don't read too much into everything you hear over the next few weeks.

It would be the ultimate irony if both Tom and Jesse went to GWS to reunite their powerful connection from 2018!

[whatwhat say what 22,263]

4 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

Dusty Martin

Amazing team and individual player 

[Demonsone 1,968]

If Brown falls over go for Hogan.....can only think Hogan wtf did I leave the MFC with all the support & his mates, goes to show can run away from ur problems & for Freo saying leave....

[Ohio USA - David 107]

11 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

 

And, relevantly, he seems not to have matured or changed his ways since then.

 

I totally agree. Hogan was all about Hogan at the MFC and he took that individualism to Freo. He is not a team player - never has been. We and Freo are better off without him. He has an ago problem and does not play for "the Team"

Edited October 30, 2020 by Ohio USA - David
spelling mistake corrected

[Engorged Onion 10,147]

12 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

Dusty Martin

mmmm... he still plays within a system, still confirms to cultural expectations of the organisation.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

On 10/28/2020 at 9:35 PM, The Lobster Effect said:

I'd love to know the real reason Melbourne and Freo cooled on Jesse. Other than he likes his partying and needs better off field dedication.

Oh well, will have to wait for an Open Mike special in 20 years. 

He strikes me as a difficult dude to manage.

Having managed teams for years, it’s my experience that it’s wearing to continually have to motivate people who lack natural enthusiasm and self-motivation for team-oriented behaviours and goals.

Perhaps he’s just in that category - it’s a personality type thing. Perhaps he’s just not naturally suited to a high performing, highly regulated, disciplined team environment, despite possessing the DNA of a really good footy player.

Even though, intellectually, he might be aware that it’s in his interests to commit to certain behaviours and actions, he can’t sustainably do this week in week out, because his personality type is possibly more individualistic (i.e. it’s not necessarily his fault).

Whereas, while Dustin Martin is an individual, from all reports I’ve read, he loves ‘team’ and places ‘team goals’ above all else including himself as an individual. Hence, the club and the players alike love having him around the place, on and off-field.

 

[BDA 22,334]

7 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

still confirms to cultural expectations of the organisation

What are the cultural expectations at Richmond though (Serious question). Cultural expectations can be bent and stretched to accommodate left-field characters like Dusty, someone who had a far from typical upbringing and whose circle or friends and influences outside of the football would have the powers that be at the club sweating i'm sure. 

Well done Richmond by the way for persisting with him in the early years when it looked like he couldn't handle the rigors and constraints of AFL football life. I wonder if they make allowances and give him some leeway because of the type of cat he is. I bet they do.

I'd like to see Jesse pitch up at the tiges to see if the Richmond culture can rehabilitate him. It would be an interesting experiment.

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

1 minute ago, Better days ahead said:

What are the cultural expectations at Richmond though (Serious question). Cultural expectations can be bent and stretched to accommodate left-field characters like Dusty, someone who had a far from typical upbringing and whose circle or friends and influences outside of the football would have the powers that be at the club sweating i'm sure. 

Well done Richmond by the way for persisting with him in the early years when it looked like he couldn't handle the rigors and constraints of AFL football life. I wonder if they make allowances and give him some leeway because of the type of cat he is. I bet they do.

I'd like to see Jesse pitch up at the tiges to see if the Richmond culture can rehabilitate him. It would be an interesting experiment.

Dusty was out the door at Richmond and they were happy to let him go, it fell through when no one else would take him. GWS pulled the pin last minute, dusty then went back to the tigers with his tale between his legs. Luckily Mark Williams then took him in and basically babysat him until he matured. I'm wondering if hogan now needs that father type figure, who keeps him on a reasonably short leash. I see Hogan's issue is he's just so naturally talented that footy has come too easy, he needs a mentor that he thinks he has to earn the respect of.

[Engorged Onion 10,147]

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

What are the cultural expectations at Richmond though (Serious question). Cultural expectations can be bent and stretched to accommodate left-field characters like Dusty, someone who had a far from typical upbringing and whose circle or friends and influences outside of the football would have the powers that be at the club sweating i'm sure. 

Well done Richmond by the way for persisting with him in the early years when it looked like he couldn't handle the rigors and constraints of AFL football life. I wonder if they make allowances and give him some leeway because of the type of cat he is. I bet they do.

I'd like to see Jesse pitch up at the tiges to see if the Richmond culture can rehabilitate him. It would be an interesting experiment.

Perhaps I/we are getting caught up in our version of meaning and semantics. You can act individually AND still operate within a teams set of rules. 

We know that fairness is not sameness (ie: treating everyone exactly the same, contingent on their life context), and it takes a mature organisation to do that, whilst ensuring that the masses within the team who adhere to team rules are treated fairly () understand why said person is being treated differently (individually).

God...hope that makes sense :)

We could choose to contrast Dusty and his best mate for a while at Richmond (i think Dan OConnor??) who was sent packing fairly quickly, there no doubt, will be certain thresholds that need to be met whilst complying to cultural expectations.

A bit of FIFO there (fit in or [censored] off)

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Having managed teams for years, it’s my experience that it’s wearing to continually have to motivate people who lack natural enthusiasm and self-motivation for team-oriented behaviours and goals.

Ron's statement speaks volumes...

As a 'manager' what is your threshold before you go... I can't be stuffed managing this bloke anymore and from a broader org perspective... what are the implications for everyone else, if we keep having to manage this blokes 'stuff' in the same way...and when do we cut and run. 

You can be an individual - because essentially everyone always is.  

Perhaps we are saying the same thing...

Post script

@Ohio USA - David - I thought I would add you in, as I respectfully disagree with the statement that there is no room for individualism. There is so much nuance in people that there needs to be room for it - as we are dealing with people... who inherently ARE individuals. It's about the thresholds of what is tolerable (from a cultural perspective). From a performance perspective, it also leverages each individuals 'strengths' to fit into your ideal team structure, whilst manipulating it slightly for person to person (which to me speaks of 'having room to incorporate individualism).

I dunno.. maybe it's a simple as

Do you compel people to fit your philosophy because YOU know best

or

Do you fit your philosophy to people, to help them be their best? 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[BDA 22,334]

14 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Perhaps I/we are getting caught up in our version of meaning and semantics. You can act individually AND still operate within a teams set of rules. 

We know that fairness is not sameness (ie: treating everyone exactly the same, contingent on their life context), and it takes a mature organisation to do that, whilst ensuring that the masses within the team who adhere to team rules are treated fairly () understand why said person is being treated differently (individually).

God...hope that makes sense :)

We could choose to contrast Dusty and his best mate for a while at Richmond (i think Dan OConnor??) who was sent packing fairly quickly, there no doubt, will be certain thresholds that need to be met whilst complying to cultural expectations.

A bit of FIFO there (fit in or [censored] off)

Ron's statement speaks volumes...

As a 'manager' what is your threshold before you go... I can't be stuffed managing this bloke anymore and from a broader org perspective... what are the implications for everyone else, if we keep having to manage this blokes 'stuff' in the same way...and when do we cut and run. 

You can be an individual - because essentially everyone always is.  

Perhaps we are saying the same thing...

Totally agree. Makes perfect sense. Thanks EO.

[Demons1858 1,724]

Training or motivation was never an issue with Jessie while a MFC. He was always super fit despite what might have been going on behind the scenes and with the his and his dads health. He has had two significant foot injuries in recent times and the risk of getting another would be high I suspect. Probably gets easily frustrated with being in rehab and lets things get to him and does some silly but mostly harmless things

[McQueen 17,864]

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Perhaps I/we are getting caught up in our version of meaning and semantics. You can act individually AND still operate within a teams set of rules. 

We know that fairness is not sameness (ie: treating everyone exactly the same, contingent on their life context), and it takes a mature organisation to do that, whilst ensuring that the masses within the team who adhere to team rules are treated fairly () understand why said person is being treated differently (individually).

God...hope that makes sense :)

We could choose to contrast Dusty and his best mate for a while at Richmond (i think Dan OConnor??) who was sent packing fairly quickly, there no doubt, will be certain thresholds that need to be met whilst complying to cultural expectations.

A bit of FIFO there (fit in or [censored] off)

Ron's statement speaks volumes...

As a 'manager' what is your threshold before you go... I can't be stuffed managing this bloke anymore and from a broader org perspective... what are the implications for everyone else, if we keep having to manage this blokes 'stuff' in the same way...and when do we cut and run. 

You can be an individual - because essentially everyone always is.  

Perhaps we are saying the same thing...

Post script

@Ohio USA - David - I thought I would add you in, as I respectfully disagree with the statement that there is no room for individualism. There is so much nuance in people that there needs to be room for it - as we are dealing with people... who inherently ARE individuals. It's about the thresholds of what is tolerable (from a cultural perspective). From a performance perspective, it also leverages each individuals 'strengths' to fit into your ideal team structure, whilst manipulating it slightly for person to person (which to me speaks of 'having room to incorporate individualism).

I dunno.. maybe it's a simple as

Do you compel people to fit your philosophy because YOU know best

or

Do you fit your philosophy to people, to help them be their best? 

 

Great post mate and @Ron Burgundy made some very concise observations with regards to teams and their obvious dynamics.

Most high performing organisations don’t fly by the seat of their pants and leave it up to an individual’s philosophy (such as the coach) to gauge who fits in and who doesn’t. However an overarching set of philosophies should be a major driver in setting the direction of your team members and arriving at the subsequent ‘desired’ cultural environment. 
The guidelines that individuals are therefore set out for them to adhere to and it’s up the organisation to hold them to account in a fair and just way. 
In Hogan’s case, I can only assume he’s had ample opportunities to operate within these ‘guidelines’ and for one reason or another he just can’t bring it all together - illness and tragedies aside. 
We all know and have seen the potential but it all comes back Ron’s point earlier on... just how much time and effort can you put into someone who can’t be that motivated team person that so desperately needs to do the right thing by his teammates for the club to be successful?

That's when the individualism factor falls away from the conversation. 

Edited October 31, 2020 by McQueen
Grammar

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

Jesse has nominated GWS.

Makes negotiations with Geelong on Cameron a little more interesting. 

[titan_uranus 24,750]

 

[titan_uranus 24,750]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Jesse has nominated GWS.

Makes negotiations with Geelong on Cameron a little more interesting. 

I see this is now news from a more reputable source than Tony Sheahan!

Yes - you have to wonder whether they need Ratugolea on their list if they take Hogan (and Preuss?).

[Demonland 70,370]

 

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

I see this is now news from a more reputable source than Tony Sheahan!

Yes - you have to wonder whether they need Ratugolea on their list if they take Hogan (and Preuss?).

Announced by Hudson on SEN but who knows.

I just wish they would do the Cameron so we can all move on.

[Demonland 70,370]

 

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

Just now, Demonland said:

 

That is really sad. 

Really hope it is '3rd time lucky'.  Would still go to the G to watch him play.

[ChaserJ 4,726]

5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Jesse has nominated GWS.

Makes negotiations with Geelong on Cameron a little more interesting. 

Pretty significant that GWS were able to secure a replacement for Cameron so quickly. Puts them in a better place for the trade period.

Bit more awkward for Geelong.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Not sure if GWS is the best place for him if rumours on their culture are to be believed, but I'm just happy to see him get another crack at it.  We all know the large amount of talent that he has, and hopefully being out of WA and in a state that isn't 'AFL mad' will help him get back to his best.

[Sir Why You Little 36,694]

Jesse just keeps running away...

[DubDee 24,548]

Good luck Jesse

[Matt 424]

Does that mean GWS are no longer interested in TMac?