Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[58er 6,568]

1 hour ago, leave it to deever said:

Not the appropriate thread and apologies if it's been dealt with.

I watched the replay of the last h and a game against cats aka one of the best comebacks.

In that last minute Gus was pinged for a deliberate or " insufficient intent" for a kick that slipped off his foot. Obviously given the amount of time left and the score nothing could have been less true. That umpire should be called out as not qualified to arbitrate any games. There are howlers we all make but that was the worst call ever and could have so easily cost us top spot.

Ironically without it we may have not got the chance so don't keep harping about it. 

[Wrecker46 3,020]

3 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Not the appropriate thread and apologies if it's been dealt with.

I watched the replay of the last h and a game against cats aka one of the best comebacks.

In that last minute Gus was pinged for a deliberate or " insufficient intent" for a kick that slipped off his foot. Obviously given the amount of time left and the score nothing could have been less true. That umpire should be called out as not qualified to arbitrate any games. There are howlers we all make but that was the worst call ever and could have so easily cost us top spot.

Not calling for a score review in a GF when Max appeared to kick a goal and the game was in the balance was possibly worse.

[leave it to deever 17,518]

2 hours ago, 58er said:

Ironically without it we may have not got the chance so don't keep harping about it. 

Can't I mention it once?

Ps I'm sorry to say but I'm pretty sure there is no logic to your conclusion about it possibly helping us.😁

Edited November 27, 2021 by leave it to deever

[Watson11 2,243]

8 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

In looking away from our shores at distant leagues and thus different approaches, here is an article worth reading.

It summarises (for those that care or are even aware about club legend OGS's sacking from Man Utd) and what the FD have done next, in obtaining a specific person, with specific skills sets and philosophy in what works for high performance.

Geez I'd love some discussion in AFL at this forensic level.

Anyway, what stood out for me in reading it (and linking it to Goodwin).

"But with Tuchel and Rangnick, and Guardiola and Jürgen Klopp for that matter, the most notable quality is their restless intelligence, the obsession with detail, with football as a play of shapes and numbers and ideas.

This is how you win at this game now. The fitness and technical quality of elite players is so well-matched that this has become a game of details, a cerebral as much as a physical battle. With this in mind Solskjær’s departure has spared us what would have been a very obvious contrast."

I am firmly in the camp of Goodwins intelligence, and subtle strategic curiosity and credentials, and have been since his first year as coach. This was evidenced by Goodwin's willingness to be 'experimental', to test out in-game ways of being different with strategy to win matches.

Roos, Clarkson, Beveridge and Hardwick all have shown this attribute as well (or at least, more clearly on display than other coaches).

There is a comment around Tuchel's press conferences also. I for one hope Goodwin, with premiership success and his standing a good/great coach validated, also allows him to be more authentic with his strategic acumen and put it on display in press conferences going forward.

Have a good week everyone!

 

Max said much the same re analysis in his article today in the age. He bemoaned the lack of understanding the media have of the modern game and how he can’t watch afl because of it.

I think Goody is different to the intellectually curious coaches and managers you allude to. I may be mistaken. In my view, Goody is more a “manager” type.  I don’t see it in Hardwick either. But they both stuck with a sound basic strategy, built lists to execute it, and got the culture right to perform. It’s such a lesson for other clubs that it usually takes time for a list to develop to execute a strategy. What strategy works for list A won’t for list B. Burgo talks about this a lot in soccer on his podcasts where the difference between the physicality of the press strategy requires completely different players to the possession based strategy’s.  There are similarities in AFL but not as pronounced.

As Goody has the right people around him now it doesn’t matter if he is brilliant or not. His limitations showed when he stuck to some flawed tactics for long periods of time that other coaches could easily exploit, especially when the pressure was on, and he clearly didn’t have the right people around him to point out the issues. The entire thread about whether he was the right guy was after his experimental strategy was ripped apart by Clarko and Hawthorn. Richo was the master of exploiting the holes on Goodys gameplan and was a great addition for us, Yze fixed Goody’s “win contested ball at all cost” stoppage strategy, and Choco in my view likely kept coaches and players on their toes in a way that didn’t seem to happen from 2017-2020 when we always seemed to get ahead of ourselves or not handle expectations. 2021 was all about Goody managing all of these people and the players and making it work.

I really don’t think Beveridge should be mentioned in that elite coaching group either.  His “genius” to handball out of stoppages and hit form for 4 weeks in September 2016 has resulted in a 5 year leave pass and in him being credited as tactically brilliant whenever the dogs have success, but never criticised for their failures. And some of their failures are all on him, like their lack of midfield defensive running, flawed defensive work at stoppages, a defence that is terrible 1 on 1, and the result being a flawed strategy where they can leak goals (like 16 in 28 minutes of playing time in a GF). His strategy is flawed yet he is credited with being a genius. That makes no sense.

The really elite coaches all have been first with a new point of strategic difference, and built unbelievable cultures and lists to execute it and created sustained success for long periods. Roos turned the game on its head tactically and won a flag that no one believed was possible, using systems imported from US basketball that even the AFL CEO didn’t understand.  He broke a longer drought than ours, and put in place a bloods culture that still remains. Clarko moneyballed the AFL with elite kicks and got 4 flags from it in 8 years. But it wouldn’t have worked without the culture.

Leigh Matthews was different in that it was more about culture and psychology. But he’s a 4 times premiership coach, and if you listen to him on dynasties it is no less impressive than what clarko did.

Goody will be seen alongside these revered coaches if the culture and success is sustained.  Worsfold built the Eagles from a rabble in 2000 and 2001 to a flag in 5 years, but their culture sucked and he didn’t get what he could of out of that list.

I don’t think we will be a one hit wonder but only time will tell.  If we only have 1 flag to show by 2025 Goody will always be respected for 2021 but seen more like a Worsfold or Chris Scott than Matthews or Clarko.  I’d prefer he is a future AFL Hall of Fame legend alongside Norm Smith.

 

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Max said much the same re analysis in his article today in the age. He bemoaned the lack of understanding the media have of the modern game and how he can’t watch afl because of it.

I think Goody is different to the intellectually curious coaches and managers you allude to. I may be mistaken. In my view, Goody is more a “manager” type.  I don’t see it in Hardwick either. But they both stuck with a sound basic strategy, built lists to execute it, and got the culture right to perform. It’s such a lesson for other clubs that it usually takes time for a list to develop to execute a strategy. What strategy works for list A won’t for list B. Burgo talks about this a lot in soccer on his podcasts where the difference between the physicality of the press strategy requires completely different players to the possession based strategy’s.  There are similarities in AFL but not as pronounced.

As Goody has the right people around him now it doesn’t matter if he is brilliant or not. His limitations showed when he stuck to some flawed tactics for long periods of time that other coaches could easily exploit, especially when the pressure was on, and he clearly didn’t have the right people around him to point out the issues. The entire thread about whether he was the right guy was after his experimental strategy was ripped apart by Clarko and Hawthorn. Richo was the master of exploiting the holes on Goodys gameplan and was a great addition for us, Yze fixed Goody’s “win contested ball at all cost” stoppage strategy, and Choco in my view likely kept coaches and players on their toes in a way that didn’t seem to happen from 2017-2020 when we always seemed to get ahead of ourselves or not handle expectations. 2021 was all about Goody managing all of these people and the players and making it work.

I really don’t think Beveridge should be mentioned in that elite coaching group either.  His “genius” to handball out of stoppages and hit form for 4 weeks in September 2016 has resulted in a 5 year leave pass and in him being credited as tactically brilliant whenever the dogs have success, but never criticised for their failures. And some of their failures are all on him, like their lack of midfield defensive running, flawed defensive work at stoppages, a defence that is terrible 1 on 1, and the result being a flawed strategy where they can leak goals (like 16 in 28 minutes of playing time in a GF). His strategy is flawed yet he is credited with being a genius. That makes no sense.

The really elite coaches all have been first with a new point of strategic difference, and built unbelievable cultures and lists to execute it and created sustained success for long periods. Roos turned the game on its head tactically and won a flag that no one believed was possible, using systems imported from US basketball that even the AFL CEO didn’t understand.  He broke a longer drought than ours, and put in place a bloods culture that still remains. Clarko moneyballed the AFL with elite kicks and got 4 flags from it in 8 years. But it wouldn’t have worked without the culture.

Leigh Matthews was different in that it was more about culture and psychology. But he’s a 4 times premiership coach, and if you listen to him on dynasties it is no less impressive than what clarko did.

Goody will be seen alongside these revered coaches if the culture and success is sustained.  Worsfold built the Eagles from a rabble in 2000 and 2001 to a flag in 5 years, but their culture sucked and he didn’t get what he could of out of that list.

I don’t think we will be a one hit wonder but only time will tell.  If we only have 1 flag to show by 2025 Goody will always be respected for 2021 but seen more like a Worsfold or Chris Scott than Matthews or Clarko.  I’d prefer he is a future AFL Hall of Fame legend alongside Norm Smith.

 

Thanks @Watson11 a far more forensic dissection than I have the intelligence for...

Edited November 27, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Watson11 2,243]

2 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Thanks @Watson11 a far more forensic dissection than I have the intelligence for...

I’ve got too much time now that I’ve overloaded on GF replays.  You have contributed some great stuff on here.  The stuff on loadings was gold.

Burgos latest podcast with Choco is worth a listen as well https://brukieandburgo.podbean.com/e/brukie-and-burgo-with-choco-williams/

 

 

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

4 hours ago, Watson11 said:

Max said much the same re analysis in his article today in the age. He bemoaned the lack of understanding the media have of the modern game and how he can’t watch afl because of it.

I think Goody is different to the intellectually curious coaches and managers you allude to. I may be mistaken. In my view, Goody is more a “manager” type.  I don’t see it in Hardwick either. But they both stuck with a sound basic strategy, built lists to execute it, and got the culture right to perform. It’s such a lesson for other clubs that it usually takes time for a list to develop to execute a strategy. What strategy works for list A won’t for list B. Burgo talks about this a lot in soccer on his podcasts where the difference between the physicality of the press strategy requires completely different players to the possession based strategy’s.  There are similarities in AFL but not as pronounced.

As Goody has the right people around him now it doesn’t matter if he is brilliant or not. His limitations showed when he stuck to some flawed tactics for long periods of time that other coaches could easily exploit, especially when the pressure was on, and he clearly didn’t have the right people around him to point out the issues. The entire thread about whether he was the right guy was after his experimental strategy was ripped apart by Clarko and Hawthorn. Richo was the master of exploiting the holes on Goodys gameplan and was a great addition for us, Yze fixed Goody’s “win contested ball at all cost” stoppage strategy, and Choco in my view likely kept coaches and players on their toes in a way that didn’t seem to happen from 2017-2020 when we always seemed to get ahead of ourselves or not handle expectations. 2021 was all about Goody managing all of these people and the players and making it work.

I really don’t think Beveridge should be mentioned in that elite coaching group either.  His “genius” to handball out of stoppages and hit form for 4 weeks in September 2016 has resulted in a 5 year leave pass and in him being credited as tactically brilliant whenever the dogs have success, but never criticised for their failures. And some of their failures are all on him, like their lack of midfield defensive running, flawed defensive work at stoppages, a defence that is terrible 1 on 1, and the result being a flawed strategy where they can leak goals (like 16 in 28 minutes of playing time in a GF). His strategy is flawed yet he is credited with being a genius. That makes no sense.

The really elite coaches all have been first with a new point of strategic difference, and built unbelievable cultures and lists to execute it and created sustained success for long periods. Roos turned the game on its head tactically and won a flag that no one believed was possible, using systems imported from US basketball that even the AFL CEO didn’t understand.  He broke a longer drought than ours, and put in place a bloods culture that still remains. Clarko moneyballed the AFL with elite kicks and got 4 flags from it in 8 years. But it wouldn’t have worked without the culture.

Leigh Matthews was different in that it was more about culture and psychology. But he’s a 4 times premiership coach, and if you listen to him on dynasties it is no less impressive than what clarko did.

Goody will be seen alongside these revered coaches if the culture and success is sustained.  Worsfold built the Eagles from a rabble in 2000 and 2001 to a flag in 5 years, but their culture sucked and he didn’t get what he could of out of that list.

I don’t think we will be a one hit wonder but only time will tell.  If we only have 1 flag to show by 2025 Goody will always be respected for 2021 but seen more like a Worsfold or Chris Scott than Matthews or Clarko.  I’d prefer he is a future AFL Hall of Fame legend alongside Norm Smith.

 

I don’t think the Brisbane lions team can be considered on the same level as the other dynasties. The salary cap benefits and other AFL assistance measures they had let them put together and maintain their list.

 Sydney also has a raft of financial benefits but it was such a blue collar list you would be really stretching to credit their success to anything other than tactics and culture.

[whatwhat say what 22,948]

1 hour ago, FlashInThePan said:

I don’t think the Brisbane lions team can be considered on the same level as the other dynasties. The salary cap benefits and other AFL assistance measures they had let them put together and maintain their list.

 Sydney also has a raft of financial benefits but it was such a blue collar list you would be really stretching to credit their success to anything other than tactics and culture.

brisbane's sustained success was built on the back of the death of ol fitzroy and salary cap benefits - loved watching them

swans rode the cola train for a while (now onto the nga); meth coke was on the gear - their clashes were legendary

geelong under thompson were brilliant to watch - their father-sons basically made em

clarko knew how to get his team to perform to the occasion and 'just get it done' otherwise, but also got lucky with the three in a row being against interstate sides; the grand final he lost to the swans was easily the best game of that run of four

beveridge is amazing at masterminding ways to win and finding new ways to lose - i personally think they should have been better than they are over the last few years and his 'tinkering' doesn't help their team balance

hardwick coached a great style that worked perfectly for their team and built around the biggest superstar in the game since 

simpson seems a good coach but meth coke are very much home town bullies who got lucky that the colliwobbles still exist

since goodwin moved down from the coaching box to the bench midway thru 2020, we haven't looked back - he is clearly a 'people' person and manages to get a great read on the game at ground level and communicates brilliant with his side in front of him and those coaching staff still up in the box

i want a dynasty dagnabbit

Edited November 27, 2021 by whatwhat say what

[58er 6,568]

6 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Can't I mention it once?

Ps I'm sorry to say but I'm pretty sure there is no logic to your conclusion about it possibly helping us.😁

Sorry LITB The only reason we got the chance to win was because the Cats after the umpires deemed Angus had not made sufficient effort to keep the ball in  put the ball out of bounds and we recd a 50m penalty as Close punched the ball from well out of bounds to into the "crowd" ie time wasting.

Then it was only a matter  to get a mark inside the 50m zone which Maxy obliged and that set us up for pole position in the Finals where we took the greatest advantage possible to ensure our drought breaking precious 13th Flag.

[leave it to deever 17,518]

9 hours ago, 58er said:

precious 13th Flag

I can certainly agree with this. 

Now onto 14 witnessed at our home ground.

Cheers.

[DeeSpencer 26,083]

12 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

I don’t think the Brisbane lions team can be considered on the same level as the other dynasties. The salary cap benefits and other AFL assistance measures they had let them put together and maintain their list.

 Sydney also has a raft of financial benefits but it was such a blue collar list you would be really stretching to credit their success to anything other than tactics and culture.

The Cats got a gigantic leg up from the father son and plenty of people talk about Dank and the weapons time there, but I won’t say more on that.

The Hawks milked the most out of the priority picks and also traded a guy in Jono Hay that they knew wouldn’t deliver a fair deal in that trade.

People will come for us for getting Brayshaw for Frawley. Even though Brayshaw hasn’t been better than what Frawley was worth which was a pick around 8-12 (not 3).

Cola was a rort but otherwise did the Lions get all that much? I’m too young to remember too many details of the late 90’s but I can’t remember it being anything like GWS and Gold Coast in terms of list concessions. 

[whatwhat say what 22,948]

7 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Cola was a rort but otherwise did the Lions get all that much? I’m too young to remember too many details of the late 90’s but I can’t remember it being anything like GWS and Gold Coast in terms of list concessions. 

absolutely they did

first they picked the eyes out of the rotting corpse of ol' fitzroy, traded off assets to bring in more, and then used the cola allowance to maintain a list that was paying 125% more than 14 other clubs

[dpositive 1,698]

Great thread with some very insightful comments read in restrospect with a premiership now on the shelf.

i always felt the teams and players were skilled and physically all equivalent and so the minutiae and detail , especially the almost indefinable culture were where the difference lies between success and failure.

i was also concerned that over the years I would see Melbourne all streaming forward only to have turnover which would always be successfully rebounded as we did not stay set up for the defensive response.

The other detail and often a cause of the turnover was free kicks and quite often the free would create the defensive shortcoming. Players would protest, drop their shoulder or often just be completely befuddled as to what the free was and what would happen. Failure to return to defence, failure to man up all sprang from a dmb free kick.

As we got through the last rounds and for nails it seemed we both had better free kick ratios but also didn't have the turnover free and reacted to own free kicks better.

As an example why does BB seem to attract free kicks while TMac treated exactly the same way does not.

Has there been any forensic examination of our season free kick impacts.

[dpositive 1,698]

Sorry dumb was meant to read dumb

for nails was meant to read finals.

Need to proof read before hitting send 

[Demonstone 22,822]

11 minutes ago, dpositive said:

Sorry dumb was meant to read dumb

I said "craw", not "craw"!

[DeeZone 10,136]

16 hours ago, Watson11 said:

I’ve got too much time now that I’ve overloaded on GF replays.  You have contributed some great stuff on here.  The stuff on loadings was gold.

Burgos latest podcast with Choco is worth a listen as well https://brukieandburgo.podbean.com/e/brukie-and-burgo-with-choco-williams/

 

 

Watson 11 that was pure gold, Mark Chocko Williams gives you a lift just listening to him. I hope that we can hold onto him so that he can continue to influence our DNA youngsters coming through. You can see from the finals footage how much the youngsters love him.💕❤️💙

Edited November 28, 2021 by DeeZone
Spelling

[low flying Robbo 979]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:09 PM, dpositive said:

Great thread with some very insightful comments read in restrospect with a premiership now on the shelf.

i always felt the teams and players were skilled and physically all equivalent and so the minutiae and detail , especially the almost indefinable culture were where the difference lies between success and failure.

i was also concerned that over the years I would see Melbourne all streaming forward only to have turnover which would always be successfully rebounded as we did not stay set up for the defensive response.

The other detail and often a cause of the turnover was free kicks and quite often the free would create the defensive shortcoming. Players would protest, drop their shoulder or often just be completely befuddled as to what the free was and what would happen. Failure to return to defence, failure to man up all sprang from a dmb free kick.

As we got through the last rounds and for nails it seemed we both had better free kick ratios but also didn't have the turnover free and reacted to own free kicks better.

As an example why does BB seem to attract free kicks while TMac treated exactly the same way does not.

Has there been any forensic examination of our season free kick impacts.

I believe that BB gets most of his frees for chopping of the arms (see the second half of the GF). He is tall, gets up there and reaches as high as possible. Most defenders can't quite match that reach so when they swing for the spoil, they chop the arms...

Tmac can't quite get that same height. He most just gets held onto, which is much easier to ignore...

[Fritta The Hair G.O.A.T. 510]

4 hours ago, low flying Robbo said:

I believe that BB gets most of his frees for chopping of the arms (see the second half of the GF). He is tall, gets up there and reaches as high as possible. Most defenders can't quite match that reach so when they swing for the spoil, they chop the arms...

Tmac can't quite get that same height. He most just gets held onto, which is much easier to ignore...

To my eye a big difference is that BB is more top-heavy, and during physical contests, if he gets knocked off balance he won't make much of an effort to correct himself, and will tend to fall more dramatically than someone who is trying their best to stay on their feet. He did it at North a lot which [censored] me off considering how physically imposing he is, he still does it but for some reason I have more of a tolerance for it now 😜

[tiers 2,843]

5 hours ago, low flying Robbo said:

I believe that BB gets most of his frees for chopping of the arms (see the second half of the GF). He is tall, gets up there and reaches as high as possible. Most defenders can't quite match that reach so when they swing for the spoil, they chop the arms...

Tmac can't quite get that same height. He most just gets held onto, which is much easier to ignore...

Correct. BB marks at the top of his reach and being 2m high is beyond most defenders. Note how there was no complaint from Keath in the GF. He knew what he had done.

[Diamond_Jim 12,628]

59 minutes ago, tiers said:

Correct. BB marks at the top of his reach and being 2m high is beyond most defenders.

so important to deliver the ball to this natural advantage. If done correctly he is almost unbeatable in a one on one

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

Here is an overview of some 'stats/trends' from around the league by the gents at Mongrel Punt, it's an interesting read, and for those that salivate over Clayton...well there is a lovely little piece on his influence.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,305]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:42 PM, Watson11 said:

Max said much the same re analysis in his article today in the age.

 

Do you have a link? I can't find it online

Edit nevermind just realised this post was a month old 🤣

Edited December 18, 2021 by Dr. Gonzo

[Its Time for Another 4,292]

@binman, @Axis of Bob, @Engorged Onion et al, I would like to revisit the topic of clearances. If you stand still in this competition you are dead so what changes if any are we going to see this season. 

It seemed pretty clear as last season went on that there was a bit of a change towards working on winning clearances by the end of the season compared to the first half when it seemed the coaches were happy to concede clearances and rely on winning post clearance possessions. Yze said mid season you don't want to lose clearances because you don't want to concede territory to the opposition. That's a bit simplified but it seems to have been the trend.

I've put together this table of clearance stat's for all 8 games against our finals competitors as a starting point for discussion on whether we can predict any new trends for this season. It's a shame I couldn't add in Post Clearance stat's as they are so highly rated by coaches. MFC stats are the first ones. 

 

First stand out stat for me is that we only lost 1 of the 8 games v Dogs in the wet when we went through our mini slump. 

Second observation is that on all these stats it appears the Lions are closest to us and the team we'll have to watch out for the most this season. 

Stats obviously have to be taken with a good measure of interpretation. For instance I'm not sure how much we learn for this season from the Dogs stats. The second game was in the wet during our slump and if we'd kicked straight we probably would have won anyway. Personally I don't believe the size of the GF blow out is a true guide of their competitiveness against us. 

We improved our Centre clearances against every team as the season progressed except v Cats in the Prelim where inexplicably we lost them 11-16, only won stoppages by 1 and lost total clearances by 4 yet had our biggest win of any of the games. 

We only lost Centre clearances in 2 games, the Prelim and rd 12 v Lions. 

We won contested possession in every game except rd 23 with Cats when we were even. Conversely we lost Uncontested possessions in every game except Rd 12 & the Prelim.

The Cats were within 3 Hitouts of us in the Prelim and won Centre clearances 16-11. 

For what it's worth here's my predictions :

I expect to see our Centre Clearance wins improve. Our Hitout domination didn't translate very often into an equivalent win in centre clearances. I expect to see Dogger more in the ruck this season so maybe our Hitout wins will decrease overall however our clearances will probably go up as his post hitout input is becoming so significant and Gawny in his book has flagged that Dogger has taught him to improve this aspect of his game. 

I expect stoppage clearances to continue to improve. I thought there was a significant improvement by the end of the season compared to the beginning and I think this will continue. As a result I expect to see our Uncontested possessions to increase. 

I expect the connection into the forward line to continue to improve as we have a more settled forward mix and more time to work together. 

 

[durango 2,023]

I look at the above statistics and the question I want answered is when we won or they won the center clearance was it like in the grand final at the goal side of the center or on the defensive side.

A commentator basically stated when you win on the defensive side the ball ends up on the half back line as apposed to winning on the attacking side when the ball results in a deep entry on the full forward line or a score.

The fact that we were the best defensive side in the competition losing a clearence on the defensive side did not hurt us as much as when we lost it on the attacking side.

The game against Geelong in Geelong in the 2nd quarter was an example of the difference when Geelong was winning the clearances at the goal side where as in the 4th quarter we got it going again by winning the clearences on the goal side. 

[rpfc 28,779]

Petracca and Oliver clearances are a quality that make it hard to measure clearance numbers. The come back in 3rd and the start of the 4th had power running clearances out of the centre that lead directly to Fritschs speccie recover goal, the next Brown goal, the Sparrow goal, Oliver’s goal and the first of the last to Brown. Not to mention the stoppage clearance from Harmes that started the music…

I think that metres gained from stoppage or scores from stoppage are a more accurate way to measure the impact we are having.