10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Important to remember the likes of Cripps, Bont and De Goey also rose up draft boards a long way between the media group think and when the recruiters had their say. Bont and De Goey were a bit like Oliver, a fair way back at the start of the draft process but very highly regarded by the time the event occurred and Bont was seen as a risk. Cripps finished last in the 3km time trial and one of their recruiters quit when they picked him.

So there's plenty of room for JT to have nailed the early picks without having followed the narrow consensus. I actually want to see him have more success with late round and rookie picks. His early claim to fame was taking Harmes and Vanders and we haven't really followed up with rookies like that since. 

Good call. The top 1st rounders are predominately a lock for good players. About 80-85% success rate now each year. Oliver was a lock for us by the September of his year.  
 

It’s the players in 30s and 40s (25-50) that can lift you up  (Anb, Sparrow, Spargo, Fritsch, Hannan, Perry, Jordon) or be a bust. These blokes are okay but definitely on the fringe.  Our your rookies like Harmes, Vberg, Lockhart, Wagners). 

Our blend of trade pickups has been excellent imo (May, Langdon, Melksham, Hibberd, Tomlinson, Lever). 
 

Trent Rivers was a great get at #32 (hard to see why others skipped him as he was expected around the 18-22 mark) and we jumped when he was still available.  ??
 

I do like our no DHs policy. I didn’t care about missing on players like Charlie Curnow, Jordan Degoey or Sydney Stack. Good players but hard to manage.
 

But I also am not quite after choirboys like Grgic, Morton and Weid.  They have talent but no raw aggression and competitive streak to win. Martin Dangerfield and even Cripps have the ability but that desire to rip in and win it.

Trac is showing signs of having the intensity to win and that’s the next step (I still laugh at the Saints picking McCartin. That was never going to go well and he lacked fitness and desire even before his unfortunate head knocks with concussion). 

2020 has some good youngsters and we trust in JT despite a lack of picks (Only one) below 57. 

14 hours ago, Elegt said:

Pick 8 [ pickett, rivers, pick 61 2020]	North Melbourne	Melbourne	Pick 26 [harrison jones]	[52]
			Pick 50 [cameron taheny]
			2020 first round pick (Melbourne) [~pick 10]

 

Pick 10 [pickett]	Fremantle	Melbourne	Pick 8 [serong]	[79]
Pick 28 [rivers]
2020 fourth round pick (Carlton) [~pick 61]

 

Whilst I like rivers and think pickett will be both be good players it was a big giveaway

I'll say it again what does this have to do with Taylor. As the thread title suggested its about Taylor and  therefore drafting. Hes not responsible for trading picks.

Just now, Grimes Times said:

I'll say it again what does this have to do with Taylor. As the thread title suggested its about Taylor and  therefore drafting. Hes not responsible for trading picks.

We are incompetent if our recruiter does not have anything to do with a trade that was purely around draft picks. Of course it has a lot to do with Taylor, he would have been a major part of it with his projection for this year's draft.

3 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

We are incompetent if our recruiter does not have anything to do with a trade that was purely around draft picks. Of course it has a lot to do with Taylor, he would have been a major part of it with his projection for this year's draft.

Yeah Taylor would be part of any discussion about trades but he gets judged on the players he picks with the picks he has. This is more JM and Tim Lambs job.

1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

I'll say it again what does this have to do with Taylor. As the thread title suggested its about Taylor and  therefore drafting. Hes not responsible for trading picks.

Still has to identify and pick the players.  We have had a lot of draft picks from 2007, pretty much failed on most of them until Taylor joined us

Lets change our draft choices only top 25 picks for 2007,08,09 players that should be peaking now, we have none on our list only 2 still in AFL system but not for much longer

2007

Morton-Dangerfield

Grimes-Rance

Maric- Scott Selwood

2008

Watts-Nic Nat

Blease-Shuey

Strauss- Hannebery

2009

Scully-Martin

Trengove-Brad Sheppard

Gysberts-Lewis Jetta

Tapscott-Fyfe

Add in our first round picks from 2010 Lucas Cook, 2012 Jimmy Toumpas, please giving first round 2011 pick for Mitch Clark, we couldn't stuff up a 6 years of picks and trading any more.

What a midfield group Nic Nat, Danger, Martin, Shuey, Fyfe, Hannebary, Selwood

Instead we got nothing to show for this period, Jason Taylor is like a Ferrari compared to our recruitment team through this period.  That is the reason we are in the position we are now 

1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

I'll say it again what does this have to do with Taylor. As the thread title suggested its about Taylor and  therefore drafting. Hes not responsible for trading picks.

Well yes he is. Mahony doesn't just blindly trade picks away. Taylor will report to him the value of each pick and probable prospects. Its naive to think recruiters aren't involved in trading.

3 hours ago, drdrake said:

Still has to identify and pick the players.  We have had a lot of draft picks from 2007, pretty much failed on most of them until Taylor joined us

Lets change our draft choices only top 25 picks for 2007,08,09 players that should be peaking now, we have none on our list only 2 still in AFL system but not for much longer

2007

Morton-Dangerfield

Grimes-Rance

Maric- Scott Selwood

2008

Watts-Nic Nat

Blease-Shuey

Strauss- Hannebery

2009

Scully-Martin

Trengove-Brad Sheppard

Gysberts-Lewis Jetta

Tapscott-Fyfe

Add in our first round picks from 2010 Lucas Cook, 2012 Jimmy Toumpas, please giving first round 2011 pick for Mitch Clark, we couldn't stuff up a 6 years of picks and trading any more.

What a midfield group Nic Nat, Danger, Martin, Shuey, Fyfe, Hannebary, Selwood

Instead we got nothing to show for this period, Jason Taylor is like a Ferrari compared to our recruitment team through this period.  That is the reason we are in the position we are now 

To be fair though, most of those players we drafted were highly rated in their draft years (except for maybe Cook). If we didn’t take them someone else would have straight after.

E.g if we didn’t take watts at pick 1, west coast would’ve taken him at pick 2.

It’s just we had a massive issue with player development during that period to the point where they regressed badly after their first couple of years. Morton, Grimes, Trengove, Blease etc are the biggest examples of this, as they were very talented players. I have no doubt that it was purely development being the issue. Imagine if those players were drafted to west coast or Geelong? They would’ve been stars because those clubs had proper management and a good culture that could develop players. Likewise, if we drafted Dangerfield, Nic Nat, shuey or Martin instead I doubt they would have been the same players at Melbourne. Our poor development at the time would’ve ruined them.

Edited September 15, 20204 yr by nacnud

FWIW, I still rate our current development team.

It's more the senior side not having a locked in game style that exploits all its available resources, that is the problem IMV.

15 hours ago, nosoupforme said:

So Joel Smith is worthy of being on the list?  Getting a game  where he is not at the Afl standard. Someone has got it wrong. 

Wouldn't be Taylor's doing . B grade rookie at the time. An experiment gone haywire.

Could have done with Frosty.  It was the wrong call. 

You do understand the salary cap constraints and Frost wanting more money than a player of his calibre was worth 

We got overs for Frost even when considering Hawthorn's pick will be pushed to roughly the 8th round in the draft

27 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

You do understand the salary cap constraints and Frost wanting more money than a player of his calibre was worth 

At the time he was looking to be signed up however he was told to wait.  Goody didn't want him ............ He was a better bet than Oscar and certainly Joel.

He could hold his own and now that May is on top of his game and Lever playing better Frosty would fit in well unlike the other two mentioned.

 IMO  we do lack a third tall down back that would have been handy and one that could run with smalls. we do have Petty but his   not right. 

As for the salary constraints l don't remember him asking for a pay rise .

1 hour ago, nacnud said:

To be fair though, most of those players we drafted were highly rated in their draft years (except for maybe Cook). If we didn’t take them someone else would have straight after.

E.g if we didn’t take watts at pick 1, west coast would’ve taken him at pick 2.

It’s just we had a massive issue with player development during that period to the point where they regressed badly after their first couple of years. Morton, Grimes, Trengove, Blease etc are the biggest examples of this, as they were very talented players. I have no doubt that it was purely development being the issue. Imagine if those players were drafted to west coast or Geelong? They would’ve been stars because those clubs had proper management and a good culture that could develop players. Likewise, if we drafted Dangerfield, Nic Nat, shuey or Martin instead I doubt they would have been the same players at Melbourne. Our poor development at the time would’ve ruined them.

The early ones yes, not so sure about Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Maric and Strauss never seen a collective group of top 25 picks that where so bad, Cook and Toumpas we just completely stuffed that up

40 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

At the time he was looking to be signed up however he was told to wait.  Goody didn't want him ............ He was a better bet than Oscar and certainly Joel.

He could hold his own and now that May is on top of his game and Lever playing better Frosty would fit in well unlike the other two mentioned.

 IMO  we do lack a third tall down back that would have been handy and one that could run with smalls. we do have Petty but his   not right. 

As for the salary constraints l don't remember him asking for a pay rise .

Frost is/was ****house I can't believe this is still being debated

50 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Frost is/was ****house I can't believe this is still being debated

Dr G  like l said i was comparing him to Oscar and Joel .  He was a better bet for a backup. 

Could have been on our list instead of Smith  Imo.  SH or not.

5 hours ago, drdrake said:

Still has to identify and pick the players.  We have had a lot of draft picks from 2007, pretty much failed on most of them until Taylor joined us

Lets change our draft choices only top 25 picks for 2007,08,09 players that should be peaking now, we have none on our list only 2 still in AFL system but not for much longer

2007

Morton-Dangerfield

Grimes-Rance

Maric- Scott Selwood

2008

Watts-Nic Nat

Blease-Shuey

Strauss- Hannebery

2009

Scully-Martin

Trengove-Brad Sheppard

Gysberts-Lewis Jetta

Tapscott-Fyfe

Add in our first round picks from 2010 Lucas Cook, 2012 Jimmy Toumpas, please giving first round 2011 pick for Mitch Clark, we couldn't stuff up a 6 years of picks and trading any more.

What a midfield group Nic Nat, Danger, Martin, Shuey, Fyfe, Hannebary, Selwood

Instead we got nothing to show for this period, Jason Taylor is like a Ferrari compared to our recruitment team through this period.  That is the reason we are in the position we are now 

Barry Prendergast is more-or-less responsible for that disastrous run of draft picks! What a shocker! Obviously there was rotten luck with injuries too and we also failed to properly develop a lot of those players.

Picking Jimmy Toumpas over Ollie Wines in the 2012 AFL draft still annoys me to this day! It was such a no-brainer to choose Jack Viney's best mate and we blew it big time!

Anyway, I have alot more confidence in Jason Taylor. But we do need to pick more players who are good kicks and better at decision making.

1 hour ago, nosoupforme said:

At the time he was looking to be signed up however he was told to wait.  Goody didn't want him ............ He was a better bet than Oscar and certainly Joel.

He could hold his own and now that May is on top of his game and Lever playing better Frosty would fit in well unlike the other two mentioned.

 IMO  we do lack a third tall down back that would have been handy and one that could run with smalls. we do have Petty but his   not right. 

As for the salary constraints l don't remember him asking for a pay rise .

I don't think Frost wanted too much money, but paying him what he was worth would've put a lot of salary cap in to 3 key defenders and most importantly cost us the 2nd round pick we needed to do the future pick trade for Pickett.

So it's either keep Frost and maybe not have the salary cap for Tomlinson - intended to fix the wing role, and then keep our first round pick instead of Pickett.

Tomlinson is now playing as the 3rd key back and I'd rather Frost, but I'd also rather Pickett than this years first round pick.

Whether it was Oscar, Petty, Tomlinson Smith or Hore good teams should be able to find a 3rd tall defender who does a capable job. For that reason moving on from Frost was probably still the right call. In this day and age I think you have to be prepared to move guys out who you aren't going to get maximum value for even if you don't have the perfect replacement. 

3 hours ago, Supreme_Demon said:

Barry Prendergast is more-or-less responsible for that disastrous run of draft picks! What a shocker! Obviously there was rotten luck with injuries too and we also failed to properly develop a lot of those players.

Picking Jimmy Toumpas over Ollie Wines in the 2012 AFL draft still annoys me to this day! It was such a no-brainer to choose Jack Viney's best mate and we blew it big time!

Anyway, I have alot more confidence in Jason Taylor. But we do need to pick more players who are good kicks and better at decision making.

No it wasn't. IIRC Toumpas was considered the better option by most in the industry. Of course a few here will claim they knew better. Even Jack acknowledged that he would've picked him. I'm not going to say it was a good choice with the luxury of hindsight, it was terrible for us. But I'm certainly not going to say that Wines over Toumpas was a "no brainer" at the time. That's just ridiculous.

6 hours ago, nosoupforme said:

At the time he was looking to be signed up however he was told to wait.  Goody didn't want him ............ He was a better bet than Oscar and certainly Joel.

He could hold his own and now that May is on top of his game and Lever playing better Frosty would fit in well unlike the other two mentioned.

 IMO  we do lack a third tall down back that would have been handy and one that could run with smalls. we do have Petty but his   not right. 

As for the salary constraints l don't remember him asking for a pay rise .

We made him an offer, lower than he wanted.

Not having him hasn't hurt us

We robbed Hawthorn getting a future second round pick for Frost. 

15 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

We made him an offer, lower than he wanted.

Not having him hasn't hurt us

I disagree. Frosty is an athletic mobile lockdown defender. Playing under the mantra of play-on-at-all-costs doesn’t suit his skill set. However since we have dialled down the rpm’s  his disposal would not have hurt us as much. 
 

He could quite easily take down 1st defender allowing May to do some major rebound damage or even switch up into the forward line as an elusive Plan B. 
 

Letting him go at the expense of O Mac is yet another mammoth of a [censored] up. 
 

Think of it this way, Clarky sees value in him - Goodwin does not. Who would you trust?

4 minutes ago, CYB said:

I disagree. Frosty is an athletic mobile lockdown defender. Playing under the mantra of play-on-at-all-costs doesn’t suit his skill set. However since we have dialled down the rpm’s  his disposal would not have hurt us as much. 
 

He could quite easily take down 1st defender allowing May to do some major rebound damage or even switch up into the forward line as an elusive Plan B. 
 

Letting him go at the expense of O Mac is yet another mammoth of a [censored] up. 
 

Think of it this way, Clarky sees value in him - Goodwin does not. Who would you trust?

Hadn't been any revolution for Gawks but has held his position season long.

A case of he would be a better player in our side this year as he would get results with his kamikaze firward thrusts and shirt passes when he deigns to lower his eyes.0

9 minutes ago, CYB said:

I disagree. Frosty is an athletic mobile lockdown defender. Playing under the mantra of play-on-at-all-costs doesn’t suit his skill set. However since we have dialled down the rpm’s  his disposal would not have hurt us as much. 
 

He could quite easily take down 1st defender allowing May to do some major rebound damage or even switch up into the forward line as an elusive Plan B. 
 

Letting him go at the expense of O Mac is yet another mammoth of a [censored] up. 
 

Think of it this way, Clarky sees value in him - Goodwin does not. Who would you trust?

How was Frost let go at the expense of Oscar McDonald? That’s pure conjecture. Frost was OOC and OMac had a year to run. 

Edited September 15, 20204 yr by Ethan Tremblay

2 minutes ago, CYB said:

I disagree. Frosty is an athletic mobile lockdown defender. Playing under the mantra of play-on-at-all-costs doesn’t suit his skill set. However since we have dialled down the rpm’s  his disposal would not have hurt us as much. 
 

He could quite easily take down 1st defender allowing May to do some major rebound damage or even switch up into the forward line as an elusive Plan B. 
 

Letting him go at the expense of O Mac is yet another mammoth of a [censored] up. 
 

Think of it this way, Clarky sees value in him - Goodwin does not. Who would you trust?

Frost was never going to follow team rules or the game plan with us. He danced to the beat of his own drum. How many times did he dash down the field, turn the ball over and then watch a rebound goal? How many times did he fail to apply his part in the zone? Remember May going off at him for doing his own thing?

Maybe Clarko has changed him. Dunno. My hawk supporting mates like his passion and flair, but not his disposal

Hopefully Smith and McDonald will follow Frost. It's time to get Petty back there and invest in the trade market for another KPD IMO.

I have been watching the last 3 Hawks games in a row just purely to see ex dees in Scully, Frawley, Frost.

Frost is still horrific by foot. He just has no capacity to slow when down its needed and goes a million miles an hour. Against ST Kilda that's as worse of a game I have seen him play.

I'd take a Joel Smith keeping his role simple and locking down his man then a bloke who gallops 70m and erratically kicks in hope only to be a turnover goal to the opposition. 

I have also noticed Hawks are just starting to catch on now how incredibly bad by foot he is.

Edited September 15, 20204 yr by dazzledavey36