POSTGAME: Rd 09 vs Port Adelaide

[RedFox 529]

First time long time.

Going to start by saying been a supporter for 30 years and have stuck fat through some of the most insipid performances year in year out. I'm as loyal as they come. But like many on here, something has simply got to give. It is obvious to everybody that 2018 was the residual value of Paul Roos' tenure, and Goodwin took all the credit. Even in 2018, we got smashed up by good teams.

The vast majority of the list has gone backwards individually. We honestly must be one of the easiest teams to plan against - it's chaos ball or nothing. As soon as we drop off in defensive pressure like last night, we lost 100 times out of 100. This is as stark of a coaching issue as I can remember, the best teams have multiple different ways in which they can win. We have one. 

I'll continue supporting this mob as I know no other way, but the footy department needs an overhaul. I would be saying this even if we won last night. Build a footy department that will get the best out of this current crop before it's too late, please MFC. For the sake of all of the supporters who are increasingly becoming disinterested in the fortunes of this club.

[binman 42,941]

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 all organisations and families have internal issues form time to time.  It is how and how quickly they are resolved that is important.

 

To be honest this is why talk of cliques, fractures don't overly concern me.

All teams have their issues, cliques and people who don't get along etc etc. As you rightly say it is how they are dealt with and managed.

Winning certainly helps with that.

Look at the Australian cricket team during the Warne, Waugh era.

The two most important members of that team - the talismen, could not stand each other in the last few years they played. Barely talked by all accounts. Didn't hurt too much where it counted  on field. 

But good managers, manage. A concern i have always had with Goody - and it is a feeling, i don't have inside word or anything - is i wonder how he is with man management.

Sure positive relationships are critical but the the best managers know how to harmonise a group and to have different personalities and styles reach their potential and play their part.

I didn't like the  Watts situation. Under roos he played his best footy, because he allowed him to be who he was. I understand i don't know what was going on behind the scenes and from many posted here (including leoncelli any number of times) there were reports about his off field behavior and impact on the group from a culture perspective. All of which might be true (and for mine, within reason, i could care less what they do off field).

But whilst i respect the decision to trade him - and not wanting to pone that decision up for debate, i get the argument for that decision -  i still wonder if Goody might have managed him differently to get a good outcome.

The best teams, be that in work or sport - are made up off different cats. Robots don't win premierships.

Edited July 31, 2020 by binman

[loges 6,767]

Where to start ? Do we ever go into a game with a plan to nullify the oppositions strengths because they sure don't have any problem nullifying ours. We are the easiest side to play and coach against, every game we have lost and most of the Carlton game as well, the opposition has dictated the way in which the game will be played and nothing changes, either on the playing field or from the coaches box. You do realise that Port were actually out of form over the past 2 weeks yet we do the old Melbourne thing and play them back into form.I'm afraid this comes back on the coach, the excuses from last year have run out. He has taken this side from one of the young exciting teams of 2018 which kicked the highest points for the year to the dross we saw last night in two years. 

I've come to the stage where I'll wait for the result and if we win watch the game on replay. We should change our name to the Melbourne Vampires because they're sure sucking the life out of the fans. Sunderland till I die has nothing on being a Melbourne supporter.

[dpositive 1,665]

It's only conjecture coz I'm not in the club rooms but something is going on.

We have some players that have shown they have skills and some have less skill but great endeavour.

But both these attributes are so nconsistent that our game fluctuates so widely.

It is difficult to believe these players can play so badly unless they have been instructed to.

i have stated often that poor and inconsistent  umpiring desicions cause frustration and lack of confidence.

The coach needs to address these basics with some novel action.

If there are personnel conflicts the coach needs to know and address them. The coach needs to instil a total club focus and the significance of winning.  Mate suggested telling all players to take their jumpers off at half time and telling them that only players who wanted to play for that jumper should pick em up and go back out. I thought we should just go out and cause so many free kicks that the umpires lose heart and can't possibly pay them all.We are continually scragged, tripped, jumped on with no kick given, let's just do it ourselves and bugger the consequences.

We must do something. It's up to the coach.

[loges 6,767]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Where was the May interview? Channel 7? I had it on kayo and didn't see it

May did a good job on Dixon but I thought he was poor tonight as well. His disposal was shocking, so many turnovers and out on the full.

May sounds really [censored], sounded like he's already given out a few verbals.

[Lord Travis 10,730]

For people who haven’t seen it, attached is the team heatmaps for the 2nd quarter last night. This is legitimate and not edited in any way.

Port really [censored] us!

[titan_uranus 25,018]

1 hour ago, Scoop Junior said:

It was obviously a horrible performance, up there with the worst we have played in the last four years.

As bad as the skill level was - and it was hardly VFL level let alone AFL level - it was not that surprising given we have seen it many times before. Perhaps not to that extent (in terms of quality and the duration of the game during which it was on show), but it didn't exactly come as a huge surprise to see us miss basic 20m kicks time and time again.

I actually thought we were on top (or at worst level) in terms of winning the ball at the source and getting it inside 50 in the first quarter, but our entries made some of the stuff we did forward of centre earlier in the season look like Hawthorn of 2013-2015. Repeated kicking to the boundary, or to packs, or to one-on-ones where our player would be significantly out-sized, or even straight to Power defenders. As we have seen many times before if you turn the ball over through the middle or across half forward you are out of position and Port just did as they pleased on the rebound.

While that part of the game was somewhat unsurprising, what was really un-Melbourne like (in terms of our previous 4 years) was the effort after quarter time. Say what you want about our skills and inside 50 connection, but we have consistently been a high-energy team that tackles, pressures, outnumbers at the contest, works hard and surges the ball forward. After quarter time we seemed to be totally flat, devoid of any energy whatsoever. I think at one point late in the last quarter we had only had about 10 inside 50s since quarter time.

Was it a 4-day break? Was it a lack of confidence? Was it going into our shells after so many kicking errors in the first quarter and Port punishing us on the rebound? I'm not sure, but we've had periods in games before where we've turned the ball over constantly but have at least responded. In all our losses this year I don't think anyone can say effort was an issue, but last night there was just this complete absence of energy and an apparent acceptance of the loss. At times you could say there were some soft individual acts which is not a trait we've seen from this team over the years.

I'm happy to put this in the mulligan column, however. Most teams have a couple of shockers a season, including the very best teams. This week we've heard about WCE being a premiership favourite and only 6 weeks ago they were absolutely crushed by Gold Coast. Richmond in 2017 were embarrassed by St Kilda mid year and won the premiership. Look at Collingwood last week - 15 goals to 1 since quarter time. In an even competition it happens - the key is whether it becomes a pattern of form or can be consigned to the mulligan column.

Now is not the time to panic and throw the baby out with the bathwater. We're 3-5, the season is not over. We've had a tough draw, playing and losing to WCE, Geelong, Richmond, Brisbane and Port, who all sit comfortably near the top of the ladder. Two of those losses were by a kick and we could've won both despite not being at our best. We have only played one bottom 5 team in Hawthorn. Contrast this with Essendon who have wins against the Crows, Dockers, Swans and Roos - and all by less than two goals.

If we continue to play like we did against Port then there will be some big concerns, obviously. But for mine there is no evidence to say that is our level, in fact the evidence of the season so far mostly suggests we can at least compete with the better teams.

A well-reasoned counter to how I felt last night and still feel, to a lesser extent, this morning.

The one key issue for us, though, is that we have these "mulligan" performances far too frequently.

We were terrible against Richmond just four weeks ago. Here we are again, four weeks later.

I agree there are opportunities in our fixture to win games and correct this season, but unlike other clubs who have had one-off shocking performances, our track record does not instil confidence that there is some sort of righting of the ship to come.

Indeed, given our history, I'd suggest we're more likely to fall flat and finish bottom 4 than we are to become a legitimate flag contender from here.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

5 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

For people who haven’t seen it, attached is the team heatmaps for the 2nd quarter last night. This is legitimate and not edited in any way.

Port really [censored] us!

It’s obvious by that graph that we were shafted big time.

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

I really enjoyed Steven May’s Post Game interview. 
i haven’t seen a player so honest and angry before like that. 
 

So much better than the usual Corporate Speak

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Sir Why You Little

[Lord Travis 10,730]

Quote from May in that interview, "not gonna win a game kicking down the line". Coaches, take note. Our entire kick-out and rebound plan is bomb long down the line to Max and hope he clunks it. Time to form some actual strategies!

Edited July 31, 2020 by Lord Travis

[pinkshark 950]

12 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

You're not 

and you know it. Youre a lifer otherwise why would you be here posting?

God pharking save me!!!!

[Kent 2,909]

15 minutes ago, america de cali said:

It’s obvious by that graph that we were shafted big time.

looks like a rogering to me?

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, Scoop Junior said:

It was obviously a horrible performance, up there with the worst we have played in the last four years.

As bad as the skill level was - and it was hardly VFL level let alone AFL level - it was not that surprising given we have seen it many times before. Perhaps not to that extent (in terms of quality and the duration of the game during which it was on show), but it didn't exactly come as a huge surprise to see us miss basic 20m kicks time and time again.

I actually thought we were on top (or at worst level) in terms of winning the ball at the source and getting it inside 50 in the first quarter, but our entries made some of the stuff we did forward of centre earlier in the season look like Hawthorn of 2013-2015. Repeated kicking to the boundary, or to packs, or to one-on-ones where our player would be significantly out-sized, or even straight to Power defenders. As we have seen many times before if you turn the ball over through the middle or across half forward you are out of position and Port just did as they pleased on the rebound.

While that part of the game was somewhat unsurprising, what was really un-Melbourne like (in terms of our previous 4 years) was the effort after quarter time. Say what you want about our skills and inside 50 connection, but we have consistently been a high-energy team that tackles, pressures, outnumbers at the contest, works hard and surges the ball forward. After quarter time we seemed to be totally flat, devoid of any energy whatsoever. I think at one point late in the last quarter we had only had about 10 inside 50s since quarter time.

Was it a 4-day break? Was it a lack of confidence? Was it going into our shells after so many kicking errors in the first quarter and Port punishing us on the rebound? I'm not sure, but we've had periods in games before where we've turned the ball over constantly but have at least responded. In all our losses this year I don't think anyone can say effort was an issue, but last night there was just this complete absence of energy and an apparent acceptance of the loss. At times you could say there were some soft individual acts which is not a trait we've seen from this team over the years.

I'm happy to put this in the mulligan column, however. Most teams have a couple of shockers a season, including the very best teams. This week we've heard about WCE being a premiership favourite and only 6 weeks ago they were absolutely crushed by Gold Coast. Richmond in 2017 were embarrassed by St Kilda mid year and won the premiership. Look at Collingwood last week - 15 goals to 1 since quarter time. In an even competition it happens - the key is whether it becomes a pattern of form or can be consigned to the mulligan column.

Now is not the time to panic and throw the baby out with the bathwater. We're 3-5, the season is not over. We've had a tough draw, playing and losing to WCE, Geelong, Richmond, Brisbane and Port, who all sit comfortably near the top of the ladder. Two of those losses were by a kick and we could've won both despite not being at our best. We have only played one bottom 5 team in Hawthorn. Contrast this with Essendon who have wins against the Crows, Dockers, Swans and Roos - and all by less than two goals.

If we continue to play like we did against Port then there will be some big concerns, obviously. But for mine there is no evidence to say that is our level, in fact the evidence of the season so far mostly suggests we can at least compete with the better teams.

Collingwood had Pendlebury, Sidebottom, De Goey and Howe out against the Eagles. We had our best team in last night. It was unacceptable and only sustained performance over the course of a season and then multiple seasons will win back the trust of supporters.

[Adam The God 30,249]

15 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Quote from May in that interview, "not gonna win a game kicking down the line". Coaches, take note. Our entire kick-out and rebound plan is bomb long down the line to Max and hope he clunks it. Time to form some actual strategies!

That's clearly not a comment on coaching then is it? He's talking about the players refusing to take the game on. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,779]

1 hour ago, binman said:

To be honest this is why talk of cliques, fractures don't overly concern me.

All teams have their issues and affections etc etc. As you rightly say it is how they are dealt with and managed.

Winning certainly helps with that.

Look at the Austrlian cricket team during the Warne, Waugh era. TTe two most important members of that team - the talisman, could not stand each other in the last few years they played. Barely talked by all accounts. Didn't hurt too much where it counted  on field. 

But good managers, manage. A concern i have always had with Goody - and it is a feeling, i don't have inside word or anything - is i wonder how he is with man management.

Sure positive relationships are critical but the the best managers know how to harmonise a group and to have different personalities and styles reach their potential and play their part.

I didn't like the  Watts situation. Under roos he played his best footy, because he allowed him to be who he was. I understand i don't know what was going on behind the scenes and from many posted here (including leoncelli any number of times) there were reports about his off field behavior and impact on the group from a culture perspective. All of which might be true.

But whilst i respect the decision to trade him - and not wanting to pone that decision up for debate, i get the argument for that decision -  i still wonder if Goody might have managed him differently to get a good outcome

The best teams, be that in work or sport - are made up off different cats. Robots don't win premierships.

With you all the way on all those points, binman. 

Like you I don't care if there are issues at the club.  I expect it to be grown up, sort it out, shake hands, have a beer then move on.  It is the dismissiveness and belittling of posters who dare to speak of behind the scenes stuff, that annoys me.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Demonised 1,354]

I can see the rest of the season unfolding like this: we'll rally sooner or later, go on a mild winning streak, get our hopes up, then the team will falter and just miss finals or stumble in on bad form and go out in straight sets.

[Grapeviney 9,718]

11 hours ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

There are fractures within the playing group. Demonland always censor me when I try to post about them.

 

1 hour ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

I have inside mail and have proven it time and time again. I need to justify nothing here. Demonland were worried about defamation when I told this forum what was up with Hogan, I pointed out it’s not defamation if true. 
 

Yeh nah.  

Your Jesse Hogan posts were deleted because they were unsubstantiated rubbish ('he was at a party in my apartment building'), not because you had any 'inside mail' that needed censoring. You then pretended to be a lawyer when you were called out on your limited understanding of defamation and the legal risk to which you exposed the site's owners, one of whom is an actual lawyer.

[HBDee 361]

Got my tip right.

[Lucifers Hero 39,779]

1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

For people who haven’t seen it, attached is the team heatmaps for the 2nd quarter last night. This is legitimate and not edited in any way.

Port really [censored] us!

Thank you.  WOW.  That really shows how predictable we were going into our f50 and out of the d50.

They knew the kick-ins would go long, to the left, to Max so they made damn sure the ball would stay on the boundary line.  There was no room.  It was comical at times watching us hot-potato the ball on the boundary line.

There was little long range camera work so not sure if I interpreted the play correctly.  But it seemed that Port guarded the corridor and formed a wall parallel to the boundary corralling 8-10 players right up to it and let us fiddle with the ball until we turned it over and they were off. 

A simple tactic and credit to them as it is another way to neutralise Max's field work and stop our flow on game before it could get started.  The mass corralling was a method I hadn't seen before.  

They did their homework.  We didn't or else the dog ate it before the game and no-one thought to take a copy!  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Wiseblood 24,637]

8 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

 

Yeh nah.  

Your Jesse Hogan posts were deleted because they were unsubstantiated rubbish ('he was at a party in my apartment building'), not because you had any 'inside mail' that needed censoring. You then pretended to be a lawyer when you were called out on your limited understanding of defamation and the legal risk to which you exposed the site's owners, one of whom is an actual lawyer.

I feel slightly vindicated right now.  Cheers grape.

[Adam The God 30,249]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

If I didn't have him on ignore.

You wouldn't. It was poor.

[titan_uranus 25,018]

May's interview is telling IMO.

He notes the following:

1. skill errors reduce our confidence, but the errors are not a confidence thing but, rather, a concentration thing. Direct quote: "the game's too hard to just turn up and expect it to happen. You've got to focus every disposal"
2. when our confidence falls, we go into our shells, so we stop taking the game on;
3. we score when we take the game on, but we stopped doing that;
4. when the ball is spending too much time in the back half, we tire our defensively, limiting our ability to attack.

When that sort of thing comes from a player, it's illuminating IMO. Clearly spoke honestly. Shows that we have too many players who don't mentally focus and/or cannot perform consistently week in, week out. That leads to mistakes, that leads to us going into shells, and that leads to losses.

Our coaches and players, jointly, should be past this by now.

[Adam The God 30,249]

17 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

May's interview is telling IMO.

He notes the following:

1. skill errors reduce our confidence, but the errors are not a confidence thing but, rather, a concentration thing. Direct quote: "the game's too hard to just turn up and expect it to happen. You've got to focus every disposal"
2. when our confidence falls, we go into our shells, so we stop taking the game on;
3. we score when we take the game on, but we stopped doing that;
4. when the ball is spending too much time in the back half, we tire our defensively, limiting our ability to attack.

When that sort of thing comes from a player, it's illuminating IMO. Clearly spoke honestly. Shows that we have too many players who don't mentally focus and/or cannot perform consistently week in, week out. That leads to mistakes, that leads to us going into shells, and that leads to losses.

Our coaches and players, jointly, should be past this by now.

This is a systems fault thing IMO. The system is too labour-intensive. Even with our alleged fitness increase, there's not enough room for error. 

It's all well and good to play the forward territory battle, but I just don't think the plan being sold is sustainable over four quarters, for 22 games a season. Even in our most dominant performance this year, we couldn't sustain it for all 4 quarters.

Some of this is concentration, some of it is stupid errors leaving our defence open, and we do go into our shells too easily, but this is year 4 of Goodwin and he's still tinkering with the best side and trying to implement the tempo game to very limited success.

Last night was mostly on the players, but for me it simply highlights the deficiencies within Goodwin's game plan and his communication.

Edited July 31, 2020 by A F

[Dockett 32 1,239]

56 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Collingwood had Pendlebury, Sidebottom, De Goey and Howe out against the Eagles. We had our best team in last night. It was unacceptable and only sustained performance over the course of a season and then multiple seasons will win back the trust of supporters.

Did we have our best team in?

IMO May, Lever, Hibberd, Salem, Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Langdon all generally good players. Kids Jackson and Pickett exempted as is Bennell at this point.

The rest turn up every now and then and include

Harmes, Brayshaw, Melksham , Tmcd, Omcd These blokes really should be delivering a lot more, week in, week out ,but don’t.

 

 

[deebug 1,754]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I really enjoyed Steven May’s Post Game interview. 
i haven’t seen a player so honest and angry before like that. 
 

So much better than the usual Corporate Speak

 

Maybe May should be a player/coach?

This what i hate most these days, both coaches and players are drilled in what to say and what not to say and do.

I want to see Goodwin go off his head and yell his lungs out at this mob; not sit there like a bloody robot at the end of a game that we were just smashed.

If there are issues then sort them out, or get out, simple as that, if it's an umpire issue then Goodwin and the club should call who ever and say, blah, blah.

Just come out and bloody say what the problems our, not sprout out #*& % each week.