1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Being undersize down back and Salem's lack of awareness to his direct opponent also concerns me down back especially with a debutante in Rivers likely to play across HB

On the positive side we shouldn't be done for pace

Barrass and McGoven are both 196cm, taller but not huge. The key thing is how they work together as a unit. If Lever, May, and Smith all work in tandem with Salem, Rivers, and Harmes (should he remain in defense) then the size won't make as much of a difference. As always much of it depends on the midfield battle being won, which again points to a lot of calls to have Harmes tag Cripps.

10 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I think is a fair way to look at it.

I agree that, on paper at least, this side looks better than the Round 1 side.

Having said that, if there isn't improvement from the likes of Langdon, Gawn, Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw in terms of their disposal going inside 50, some of these changes won't make as much difference as they could.

Jones, Bennell, Rivers, Jackson, Salem all improve disposals, as well as having probably the fastest Demon lineup l can remember which is exciting. I think our biggest weakness is the key forwards. I am yet to be convinced on Jackson as a key forward - l suspect he will be great in a couple of years, but so far at least l don’t think he does much for winning games now. I hope l am wrong.....

Edited June 11, 20205 yr by Dees2014

7 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Risky decision to play 2 debutants and second gamer in Kossie. Still, it’s a good sign that we have drafted well given the kids are in the side so early on.

Also risky to play Harley for a different reason. It will be a massive win for us if he can recapture his early years.

Hopefully Jackson has improved over the last few months as a forward. I would have played Weideman, who is more of an aerial threat, but good luck to the kid. 

Happy we picked Smith. His athleticism is off the charts. While we look short down back, Max will drop back and help. 

Hunt was a surprising selection but I like him more than other small forwards because he can at least complete in the air. My guess is he’ll play a negative role on Docherty. Another point in Hunt’s favour is the shorter games. (This goes against ANB.)

Lockhart was stiff but how many very small defenders can you play? Jetta and Salem are better by foot and rightfully got a game. 

The biggest question on the result is how we negate Cripps. 

The current problem with Weid is that he is NOT an aerial threat. That is one of the issues keeping him out of the team. On the limited occasions he finds himself contesting a mark, he double grabs and invariably spills it.

I had faith in him early on, but it's starting to fade.

Good to see ANB out of the side. Our kicking will improve immeasurably.

8 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Exactly what they are. I would back Omac to easily account McKay. Lever when playing one on one footy has been badly exposed. I fear this will happen to him if matched up on either Casboult or McKay.

It's probably time for him to step up 'dazz'...some of the great zone off, intercept defenders cut their teeth on being good one on one. The likes of Scarlett, Fletcher & Rance.

It's a luxury to be just an intercept defender, you have to be accountable some time.

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

It's probably time for him to step up 'dazz'...some of the great zone off, intercept defenders cut their teeth on being good one on one. The likes of Scarlett, Fletcher & Rance.

It's a luxury to be just an intercept defender, you have to be accountable some time.

Agree mate. For him to actually take the next step he needs to show more then just playing as a loose defender. With his current body size I do worry though. Still looks like a take.

12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

 

I'm even more surprised that Hunt is in the side.

 

This was my main take away also.  I hope his kicking has improved to target and has lost the tendency to long bomb.  otherwise some surprises but a good list .

11 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

The four sweetest words in footy.

??

13 hours ago, old dee said:

Wow we are really pushing the odds with that forward line.

Of course you have to believe that is the way they will line up which seldom happens.

If we accept it in broad terms the the two key forwards are a player who has only once produced his 2018 form and a kid who is playing his first game straight from under 18’s football. 
We then have Brayshaw who has seldom been a goal kicker along with Petrecca with the same disease and another kid who has played one game since leaving the under 18’s. we are going to need 6 from Fritsch to be in the hunt.
Still taking out Spargo gives one more competent player in the 22.

We will struggle to win this game.

What are the alternatives? You're not a Weideman fan so I can't imagine you thinking he should be in the side. Who would you rather us have picked?

This forward line is about as good as it is going to get for us this year.

13 hours ago, old dee said:

There is nothing wrong with dreaming Hff. In fact it is probably the only thing that keeps the average Dees supporter sane.

Fact checking required. Is it true that the average Dees supporter is sane?

26 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Fact checking required. Is it true that the average Dees supporter is sane?

Not on here at any rate

43 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Fact checking required. Is it true that the average Dees supporter is sane?

 

16 minutes ago, Kent said:

Not on here at any rate

Very good point! On reflection no we are not sane.

Edited June 11, 20205 yr by old dee

45 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

What are the alternatives? You're not a Weideman fan so I can't imagine you thinking he should be in the side. Who would you rather us have picked?

This forward line is about as good as it is going to get for us this year.

Correct I am not a big fan but surely he offers more than a kid who has never played a game above under 18’s.

Why did we last year give a contract extension to the Weid when we prefer a untested  kid in the second game of the year? It is not as though Jackson has played a good game at Casey last week.

The mids will need kick a lot of goals To ensure we win this game.

Edited June 11, 20205 yr by old dee

On the back of playing one of the worst, most unbalanced sides we have ever seen in round 1, here might be one that is even worse. We are clearly missing a genuine key defender, a genuine key forward and a crumbing forward. 

If seven unforced changes isn't a clear admission by the selectors that they got it completely wrong in round 1, I don't know what is.

The disconnect between the side that is being selected each week and the game plan that Goodwin wants to use is hugely concerning. Is he not getting the side he wants, or does he simply have no idea how to construct a football side?

Neither Lever or Smith is a key position defender, and Lever rarely wants to be in the same postcode as his opponent at the best of times. Any opposition coach worth is his pay packet will use May's opponent to drag him out of the play (as Kennedy did in round 1), and use other targets. McKay will have a field day with Cripps slamming the ball down his throat all day. Hopefully Goodwin puts Harmes back in the midfield, because a half back line with both he and Salem ball watching will be a disaster.

The forward line looks more of the same. Nobody who can take a contested mark. No big bodies to bring the ball to ground. Just a bunch of mid-sized leading players who will all get in each other's way. Why you would go from having 4 crumbers to 1 crumber in the space of a week is mind boggling. Good luck to Jackson having to provide an entire forward line's worth of physical presence in his first game.

If our midfield doesn't dominate we will lose this game, and comfortably. The likes of Langdon and Oliver have to lower their eyes and find a target, because more indiscriminate bombing into the forward line will not end well, even against poor opposition.

2 minutes ago, poita said:

On the back of playing one of the worst, most unbalanced sides we have ever seen in round 1, here might be one that is even worse. We are clearly missing a genuine key defender, a genuine key forward and a crumbing forward. 

If seven unforced changes isn't a clear admission by the selectors that they got it completely wrong in round 1, I don't know what is.

The disconnect between the side that is being selected each week and the game plan that Goodwin wants to use is hugely concerning. Is he not getting the side he wants, or does he simply have no idea how to construct a football side?

Neither Lever or Smith is a key position defender, and Lever rarely wants to be in the same postcode as his opponent at the best of times. Any opposition coach worth is his pay packet will use May's opponent to drag him out of the play (as Kennedy did in round 1), and use other targets. McKay will have a field day with Cripps slamming the ball down his throat all day. Hopefully Goodwin puts Harmes back in the midfield, because a half back line with both he and Salem ball watching will be a disaster.

The forward line looks more of the same. Nobody who can take a contested mark. No big bodies to bring the ball to ground. Just a bunch of mid-sized leading players who will all get in each other's way. Why you would go from having 4 crumbers to 1 crumber in the space of a week is mind boggling. Good luck to Jackson having to provide an entire forward line's worth of physical presence in his first game.

If our midfield doesn't dominate we will lose this game, and comfortably. The likes of Langdon and Oliver have to lower their eyes and find a target, because more indiscriminate bombing into the forward line will not end well, even against poor opposition.

This post has some interesting views. However, it would be better if you were to name who you would select to fix what you believe are the missing genuine key defender, missing genuine key forward and missing crumbing forward. 

For example, are you suggesting Oscar McDonald should be picked instead of, say, Joel Smith; or Sam Weideman/Mitch Brown as key forwards; and who would you select as the crumber and who should he replace?

For what it's worth, I worry that Joel Smith is a liability with ball in hand but his pace means he's more likely to get to a contest than Oscar, so I'd like to give Smith another go. Picking Jackson provides Gawn with better back up than any other option which also means Gawn could spend a bit more time up forward. And as to a crumbing forward, I suspect that's what Bennell's primary role will be in his first game back. 

 

17 minutes ago, poita said:

On the back of playing one of the worst, most unbalanced sides we have ever seen in round 1, here might be one that is even worse. We are clearly missing a genuine key defender, a genuine key forward and a crumbing forward. 

If seven unforced changes isn't a clear admission by the selectors that they got it completely wrong in round 1, I don't know what is.

The disconnect between the side that is being selected each week and the game plan that Goodwin wants to use is hugely concerning. Is he not getting the side he wants, or does he simply have no idea how to construct a football side?

Neither Lever or Smith is a key position defender, and Lever rarely wants to be in the same postcode as his opponent at the best of times. Any opposition coach worth is his pay packet will use May's opponent to drag him out of the play (as Kennedy did in round 1), and use other targets. McKay will have a field day with Cripps slamming the ball down his throat all day. Hopefully Goodwin puts Harmes back in the midfield, because a half back line with both he and Salem ball watching will be a disaster.

The forward line looks more of the same. Nobody who can take a contested mark. No big bodies to bring the ball to ground. Just a bunch of mid-sized leading players who will all get in each other's way. Why you would go from having 4 crumbers to 1 crumber in the space of a week is mind boggling. Good luck to Jackson having to provide an entire forward line's worth of physical presence in his first game.

If our midfield doesn't dominate we will lose this game, and comfortably. The likes of Langdon and Oliver have to lower their eyes and find a target, because more indiscriminate bombing into the forward line will not end well, even against poor opposition.

Round 1 was wrong, no doubt about that.

...but is this a worse team? No

May is a genuine key defender.

I've yet to see what the Smith hype is, to me he's a Frost mark II but I do like the inclusion of Rivers. A strong kid with a good leg.

Kosi is probably the best crumbing forward we've had in a long time but that's coming off the back of not much...Bennell will also be handy at the foot of packs, Jones is not too bad either.

So for small type forwards it's the best line up we've had for a long while.

Medium forwards with Trac, Fritsch and Melk look pretty decent. 

Key forward I will give you but we just don't have one...unless Tommy pulls the finger.

A lot will rest on him running back into form but I'm not betting on that one.

Jackson is a super smart footballer and will give us something different that may be difficult to counter.

With Gawn, Oliver, Viney, Trac and probably Harmes against Cripps and not a lot else I think we will be too strong and provide enough opportunities to kick a winning score.

 

4 minutes ago, rjay said:

Jackson is a super smart footballer and will give us something different that may be difficult to counter.

 

I am tipping him to have a huge impact immediately.  Maybe not on the stat sheet just yet but he will get to stoppages and cause mayhem with his size, athleticism and pressure.

I am excited by the changes but also concerned by 2 things; our lack of experience with 2 debutants, Pickett off 1 game and Bennell who hasn’t played in virtually 4 years. 

I’m also worried that we’ve gone too short down back. I’m not sure why the dropped Omac (no need for haters to reply). It leaves us with one tall shut down player in May who will obviously take McGovern. 
We are putting a lot of pressure on Rivers and Smith to play serious shut down roles.  
 

We obviously think that with shorter quarter and the fast deck of Etihad that speed is the way to go. 

Luke Jackson gives us everything Weideman can give and more because he is also a genuine ruck man.

Is anyone suggesting that Jones, Salem & Bennell wouldn't have been in the round 1 team if fit at the time? So really, we're looking at four new 'ins', Hunt, Rivers, Jackson & Smith. Considering Hunt played all but one game in 2019, his inclusion can hardly be classified unexpected. So the reality is, we have given Rivers a try ahead of Hibberd, we have opted for Smith ahead of O Mac and gone for Jackson ahead of Weideman or Brown. I don't see these changes as revolutionary!

54 minutes ago, poita said:

On the back of playing one of the worst, most unbalanced sides we have ever seen in round 1, here might be one that is even worse. We are clearly missing a genuine key defender, a genuine key forward and a crumbing forward. 

If seven unforced changes isn't a clear admission by the selectors that they got it completely wrong in round 1, I don't know what is.

The disconnect between the side that is being selected each week and the game plan that Goodwin wants to use is hugely concerning. Is he not getting the side he wants, or does he simply have no idea how to construct a football side?

Neither Lever or Smith is a key position defender, and Lever rarely wants to be in the same postcode as his opponent at the best of times. Any opposition coach worth is his pay packet will use May's opponent to drag him out of the play (as Kennedy did in round 1), and use other targets. McKay will have a field day with Cripps slamming the ball down his throat all day. Hopefully Goodwin puts Harmes back in the midfield, because a half back line with both he and Salem ball watching will be a disaster.

The forward line looks more of the same. Nobody who can take a contested mark. No big bodies to bring the ball to ground. Just a bunch of mid-sized leading players who will all get in each other's way. Why you would go from having 4 crumbers to 1 crumber in the space of a week is mind boggling. Good luck to Jackson having to provide an entire forward line's worth of physical presence in his first game.

If our midfield doesn't dominate we will lose this game, and comfortably. The likes of Langdon and Oliver have to lower their eyes and find a target, because more indiscriminate bombing into the forward line will not end well, even against poor opposition.

I think it is a bit unfair to say these number of changes indicate we don’t know what we are doing. In the main, the players coming in were not available in round one and so their inclusion generally strengthens the side, some outstandingly so such as Bennell assuming he gets through the game. 
 

no this side is significantly better than round one. 

Having guys like Salem back in and with Bennell and Rivers strengths as kicking, our forward line delivery should be improved.

Even if we dont do as well as I expect, we now have made sweeping changes that should only need slight adjustment going forward. We bit the bullet and just have to let the newbies show Goodies faith. Might take a couple of weeks.

Lots of complaints about the defence's structure. But the structure is much more inline with the rest of the competition's top sides. Take last night, Collingwood, who's defence held up incredibly well for 3 qtrs of punishment. They only have 1 key defender Roughhead, 2 intercept players Howe and Moore, a solid role player Maynard an under 10 gamer in Madgen and rebound defender, Crisp and it appeared as Mayne spend a fair bit as the 7th defender/mid

On the other side we saw Richmond with again with just 1 Key defender Astbury, 2 interceptors in Grimes and Vlaustin, maybe even a 3rd if you count Broad 2 rebounders in Houli and Short add Baker as a small role player/rebounder. Richmond's line up is more aggressive and relies on their forwards and mids protecting their defenders as they can be exposed when there isn't much pressure up the ground (hmmm, this sounds familiar) 

A side note on the Eagles. The only reason their defence looks like it has more keys is because they have Barrass and McGovern is abnormally large for the Intercept defender role around the comp. Looking at some of the best and you get Howe, Lever, Haynes, Sicily all too undersized to be "Key Defenders". Not many clubs have the luxury to play 2 Key Defenders like the Eagles.

May, Lever, Smith, Jetta, Rivers, Salem and Harmes 

I'm not saying our lineup is 'better' than the most effective defences in the comp, we have a long way to go before we even put our hand up to join the discussion. But as a structure It's not a lot different.

38 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Lots of complaints about the defence's structure. But the structure is much more inline with the rest of the competition's top sides. Take last night, Collingwood, who's defence held up incredibly well for 3 qtrs of punishment. They only have 1 key defender Roughhead, 2 intercept players Howe and Moore, a solid role player Maynard an under 10 gamer in Madgen and rebound defender, Crisp and it appeared as Mayne spend a fair bit as the 7th defender/mid

On the other side we saw Richmond with again with just 1 Key defender Astbury, 2 interceptors in Grimes and Vlaustin, maybe even a 3rd if you count Broad 2 rebounders in Houli and Short add Baker as a small role player/rebounder. Richmond's line up is more aggressive and relies on their forwards and mids protecting their defenders as they can be exposed when there isn't much pressure up the ground (hmmm, this sounds familiar) 

A side note on the Eagles. The only reason their defence looks like it has more keys is because they have Barrass and McGovern is abnormally large for the Intercept defender role around the comp. Looking at some of the best and you get Howe, Lever, Haynes, Sicily all too undersized to be "Key Defenders". Not many clubs have the luxury to play 2 Key Defenders like the Eagles.

May, Lever, Smith, Jetta, Rivers, Salem and Harmes 

I'm not saying our lineup is 'better' than the most effective defences in the comp, we have a long way to go before we even put our hand up to join the discussion. But as a structure It's not a lot different.

A defensive unit is only as good as the pressure being put on up the field.  If we let opposition teams just waltz out of half back (our half forward), through the wings and deliver in to their forward 50 with pace and ease, it wouldn't matter who we have down back.

It's why, over the past 25 games, that we've made even some poor opposition defences look elite.

Edited June 12, 20205 yr by The Chazz

I think our defense had been ok and our mids have been ok.

I just hope we used this time to sort out the connect with the forward line, as that, I believe ,was the main issue holding us back.