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Small forwards - what are our trading and draft options?



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2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I reckon the RTOT value would be more wisely spent in this area than chasing the elusive KF rabbit rjay.

Much more likely to find a few decent options unable to push their way in to the Tiger's line up and one or two other clubs with strong quality depth.  Bolton as you say is a potential get.

Ideally we need both but the KF options are either NQRs or a bridge too far (for us) imv.  This might change if we can make finals in the next year or two but until then beggars can't be choosers.

The good KF option would be a left field get.  But that is what it often takes anyway.

The Tigers changed tack when they went after Lynch and the deals for Buddy,  Kennedy etc took a bit to get across the line.

First of all the salary offer has to be through the roof and then the deal has to go through.  We got Hogan with the Scully compo pick (kinda, sorta) and Freo got Hogan with 1 top end pick.

So it's not impossible to land a big fish if the club is hell bent on securing a decent key forward.  And we're not necessarily going to hear about it until it happens. 

The 2 that we've got are lazy.  T-Mac has been a disappointment and I'm not sure we can rely on him.  Weideman just flies for marks like it's 'kick to kick' .  If the plan is to go with those 2 I'm not at all confident.  Imagine if you were the coach?

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And overpaying...

We better be all over this kid, looking to be early 20s pick. Would be [censored] if we pass on him for another Vanilla mid like Sparrow/Spargo/Jordan ect  WWT Eagles/South Australia | Small Forw

Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti  171  30 goals Eddie Betts 174   34 goals Willie Rioli  175   17goals Cyril Rioli  177   275 goals Tom Papley 178cm 37 goals Jamie Elliot  178cm  2

30 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

No arguments on needing them and the present bunch, aside from Hunt & Melk, not working hard enough to get front position Macca.  Which is why i'd keep Hunt for at least next year.

It's been an issue for years and makes you wonder about whoever is teaching these blokes the craft.  Shocking stuff with most.  Melk about the only one who seems like  a natural but his forward craft probably comes from his days at the Bombers.

I don't think we're much of a chance of picking a Cameron up and imv the other KFs are NQRs.

Get two decent smalls in and get the ball to ground for the likes of Tracc, lockhart (wait & see), chandler (early days) and two decent quality small recruits to mop up.

If we ever get some cred back we might then be a chance of trading in a decent KF in the following trade period ie; a year or two away at best.

Hunt plays from behind too much and doesn't get to enough contests.  Nor does he apply enough forward pressure.  Apart from that he's 'ok'  Good pace,  elusive and can kick goals.

Melksham plays for frees too much and again,  doesn't get involved enough.  An excellent kick to position and he's got class but he has a few issues.  He's not that good. 

I'd keep both but neither player is B+ level by any means.

 

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4 minutes ago, Macca said:

The good KF option would be a left field get.  But that is what it often takes anyway.

The Tigers changed tack when they went after Lynch and the deals for Buddy,  Kennedy etc took a bit to get across the line.

First of all the salary offer has to be through the roof and then the deal has to go through.  We got Hogan with the Scully compo pick (kinda, sorta) and Freo got Hogan with 1 top end pick.

So it's not impossible to land a big fish if the club is hell bent on securing a decent key forward.  And we're not necessarily going to hear about it until it happens. 

The 2 that we've got are lazy.  T-Mac has been a disappointment and I'm not sure we can rely on him.  Weideman just flies for marks like it's 'kick to kick' .  If the plan is to go with those 2 I'm not at all confident.  Imagine if you were the coach?

If we hadn't gone from 4th to 17th in the season we had i'd be more confident about landing a Cameron or even someone of lessor ilk Macca.  Not so after this season.

As i've said before imv Weid is a bust and probably remains as 4th stringer depth.  We went too strong on him just as we did on Goody.  This club is too easily impressed/excited by mediocrity far too often.

I expect T-Mac will bounce back to somewhere nearer his 2018 form but he certainly isn't, and shouldn't be expected to be, the first stringer KF.

Would be bloody awesome to land a big fish as you say.  If enough $$ are thrown and the contract is attractive enough, who knows.

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22 minutes ago, Macca said:

Hunt plays from behind too much and doesn't get to enough contests.  Nor does he apply enough forward pressure.  Apart from that he's 'ok'  Good pace,  elusive and can kick goals.

Melksham plays for frees too much and again,  doesn't get involved enough.  An excellent kick to position and he's got class but he has a few issues.  He's not that good. 

I'd keep both but neither player is B+ level by any means.

 

Hunt is still learning and at least works hard to get on the lead and front position Macca.  Probably doesn't get there enough and yes, forward pressure bog ordinary.  Good in a straight line, i'm not sure he has the agility to get away from his opponent other than on a fast break deep in the square.

We can't cover too many 'outs' up forward as we don't (presently) have the talent to replace.  Jeffy out (at his 2017 and prior form) is a big loss of class and pressure inside 50.

Look at the two this year, and yes i realise this season isn't a great comparison with Jeffy coming in and out of the team and on his way out but Hunt is not fairing too badly on the marking and goal average front.   Accuracy pretty darn good at 58%.  Falls away badly on the pressure side as you say but this can be worked on and another pre-season, a year's experience up forward under his belt and some better delivery!??  Might work.  I would roll the die for another year here given our poor position of strength this trade period.

He also offers something else we lack big time right now... pace / speed and could, at a pinch play off the wing for short stints or off a HBF as per previously.

https://www.afl.com.au/stats/stats-pro#/Compare?playerIds=CD_I994385,CD_I270653&comparisonTab=h2h

Edited by Rusty Nails
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38 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Hunt is still learning and at least works hard to get on the lead and front position Macca.  Probably doesn't get there enough and yes, forward pressure bog ordinary.  Good in a straight line, i'm not sure he has the agility to get away from his opponent other than on a fast break deep in the square.

We can't cover too many 'outs' up forward as we don't (presently) have the talent to replace.  Jeffy out (at his 2017 and prior form) is a big loss of class and pressure inside 50.

Look at the two this year, and yes i realise this season isn't a great comparison with Jeffy coming in and out of the team and on his way out but Hunt is not fairing too badly on the marking and goal average front.   Accuracy pretty darn good at 58%.  Falls away badly on the pressure side as you say but this can be worked on and another pre-season, a year's experience up forward under his belt and some better delivery!??  Might work.  I would roll the die for another year here given our poor position of strength this trade period.

He also offers something else we lack big time right now... pace / speed and could, at a pinch play off the wing for short stints or off a HBF as per previously.

https://www.afl.com.au/stats/stats-pro#/Compare?playerIds=CD_I994385,CD_I270653&comparisonTab=h2h

Money talks Rusty

And you normally have to pay overs anyway.  We're not as badly placed as we were previously and we're more like a 10 win team with a functioning forward line. 

And that's without a big name forward or 2.  Fritsch and a fit Melksham would have made a difference if they'd played forward all season.

And plonk Viney and/or Jones forward and another win or 2 could have eventuated

By the time we started ringing the changes it was way too late.

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I think we could do with a small forward but on the proviso that we don't draft anymore midgets. All AFL players need to be able to compete in the air these days, so I would look very sceptically on anyone sub-180cm. And even then they need a leap. Players like Petracca, Hannan and Hunt are small forwards in the AFL and all are 186cm+.

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On 9/2/2019 at 12:48 PM, Fat Tony said:

I think we could do with a small forward but on the proviso that we don't draft anymore midgets. All AFL players need to be able to compete in the air these days, so I would look very sceptically on anyone sub-180cm. And even then they need a leap. Players like Petracca, Hannan and Hunt are small forwards in the AFL and all are 186cm+.

 

Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti  171  30 goals

Eddie Betts 174   34 goals

Willie Rioli  175   17goals

Cyril Rioli  177   275 goals

Tom Papley 178cm 37 goals

Jamie Elliot  178cm  23 goals 

Liam Ryan 179  26 goals

Charlie Cameron 181 54 goals

Luke Breust   184   34goals

etc etc

Edited by It's Time
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1 hour ago, It's Time said:

 

Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti  171  30 goals

Eddie Betts 174   34 goals

Willie Rioli  175   17goals

Cyril Rioli  177   275 goals

Tom Papley 178cm 37 goals

Jamie Elliot  178cm  23 goals 

Liam Ryan 179  26 goals

Charlie Cameron 181 54 goals

Luke Breust   184   34goals

etc etc

Of the list you provided, Betts, Cyril, Elliot, Ryan and Cameron all have/had the ability to get off the ground and take a hanger. Breust is also good in the air.

McDonald Tipungwuti, Papley and Willie Rioli are all very good/good players, but my point is that recruiting small forwards without the ability to take a high mark rarely pays off at AFL level.

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4 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Of the list you provided, Betts, Cyril, Elliot, Ryan and Cameron all have/had the ability to get off the ground and take a hanger. Breust is also good in the air.

McDonald Tipungwuti, Papley and Willie Rioli are all very good/good players, but my point is that recruiting small forwards without the ability to take a high mark rarely pays off at AFL level.

For me Spargo is a great example of drafting an undersized player with limited abilities. I'm not even exactly sure what he was drafted as but he's been played mostly as a small forward I believe.

I agree with you that looking for a small forward we also have to make sure they have that vertical leap or at least the ability to affect aerial contests, but more important for me is that they have pace to create forward pressure much like as Aaron Davey type. 

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Brent Daniels should be a priority target for trade. Zac Langdon another option.

Lockhart, Spargo and Chandler need to do a pre-season as a small crumbing forward. I expect Lockhart to win that spot!

Funny enough! Brent Harvey would slide straight into a forward pocket and do well! Can’t believe Roos moved him on! 

 

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On 9/2/2019 at 7:23 AM, rjay said:

If we're going to go small 'Rusty' then we had better bring in a couple of quality small forwards.

Money needs to be on the line for Bolton and one other...

Yeh i agree rjay.

Not sure i would want to spend a packet on Bolton at this early stage though.

A marginal step up on say a Spargo inside 50.  General clearance receives and outside run he probably has him covered also even at this early stage.

Early days and only a 'potential' quality small forward at this point.  Might develop in to a cracker as long as we don't pay overs.

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I see that we are going after Jamie Elliott.   Thats all well and good, but we need 3 or 4 legitimate small forwards, not just one.    Look no further than Richmond who have about 5 capable small forwards.

So why are we signing up plodders who will give us nothing (ie. Adam Tomlinson)  when we are desperate for legitimate crumbing forwards with speed and flair?   Where is the excitement?

It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.

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Richmond's team:
2 ruckmen - Nank and Soldo
2 key forwards - Lynch and Riewoldt
3 lock down defenders - Grimes, Astbury, Broad
1 intercept defender - Vlastuin
3 rebounding defenders - Houli, Short, Baker
2 wings - Caddy, Ellis
3 inside mids: Prestia, Cotchin, Graham (Ross)
3 forward/mids: Edwards, Lambert, Martin
1 pacey defensive forward - Castagna
2 small forwards - Rioli, Bolton

Is one part of the puzzle bigger than the other?

Our shopping list should be: 
- Outside run
- Midfield pace
- Half back skill
- Tall depth
- Small pressure forwards
- Extra goal kicking option

It's highly unlikely we get all of those fully fixed in one off season, most premiership teams aren't perfect yet alone teams rebounding from 17th. But starting from the midfield deficiencies with trades and then using draft picks to fill the other needs probably isn't a bad idea. Remember Richmond kicked off their bounce back with Nankervis, Caddy and Prestia traded in.

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48 minutes ago, X Factor said:

I see that we are going after Jamie Elliott.   Thats all well and good, but we need 3 or 4 legitimate small forwards, not just one.    Look no further than Richmond who have about 5 capable small forwards.

So why are we signing up plodders who will give us nothing (ie. Adam Tomlinson)  when we are desperate for legitimate crumbing forwards with speed and flair?   Where is the excitement?

It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.

I agree, we need to prioritis ethis, but maybe they feel like Chandler, Spargo Bedford are worth persevering, time will tell, but i for teh life of me cant see why we wouldn't have inquired about Sam Gray.

it also really baffles me that we have spent the last however many year splaying in the NT and we cant identify a indigenous talent to add to our list.

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8 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

I agree, we need to prioritis ethis, but maybe they feel like Chandler, Spargo Bedford are worth persevering,

Thats a scary thought.

Bedfiord was a total flop at Casey.   Chandler was slightly better and at least showed he has a defensive side and that translated to AFL level in the last game.       Spargo is a mid not a forward.

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1 hour ago, X Factor said:

I see that we are going after Jamie Elliott.   Thats all well and good, but we need 3 or 4 legitimate small forwards, not just one.    Look no further than Richmond who have about 5 capable small forwards.

So why are we signing up plodders who will give us nothing (ie. Adam Tomlinson)  when we are desperate for legitimate crumbing forwards with speed and flair?   Where is the excitement?

It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.

This proposal would work a lot better if you suggest the 'gun small forwards' we should target and what you'd be willing to give up to get them.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, X Factor said:

Thats a scary thought.

Bedfiord was a total flop at Casey.   Chandler was slightly better and at least showed he has a defensive side and that translated to AFL level in the last game.       Spargo is a mid not a forward.

Bedford is a kid playing his first year of senior footy. He needs some time,  before we write him off.

Chandler was not disgraced in his AFL debut. Might not make it, but will get another year to show his wares.

Spargo might be a mid but he clearly suffered the 2nd year blues. Next year will be a big one for him, to see whether he cements a place on the list.

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Richmond's team:
2 ruckmen - Nank and Soldo
2 key forwards - Lynch and Riewoldt
3 lock down defenders - Grimes, Astbury, Broad
1 intercept defender - Vlastuin
3 rebounding defenders - Houli, Short, Baker
2 wings - Caddy, Ellis
3 inside mids: Prestia, Cotchin, Graham (Ross)
3 forward/mids: Edwards, Lambert, Martin
1 pacey defensive forward - Castagna
2 small forwards - Rioli, Bolton

Is one part of the puzzle bigger than the other?

Our shopping list should be: 
- Outside run
- Midfield pace
- Half back skill
- Tall depth
- Small pressure forwards
- Extra goal kicking option

It's highly unlikely we get all of those fully fixed in one off season, most premiership teams aren't perfect yet alone teams rebounding from 17th. But starting from the midfield deficiencies with trades and then using draft picks to fill the other needs probably isn't a bad idea. Remember Richmond kicked off their bounce back with Nankervis, Caddy and Prestia traded in.

Ruck - Gawn, tomlinson

2 key forwards - Tmac weed

3 lock down defenders - May, Frost, Petty

1 intercept defender - Lever

3 rebounding defenders - Jetta, Salo, Hibbo

2 wings - Harmes, Langdon

3 inside mids - Viney, Clarry, Gus

3 forward/mids - Trac, Melk, fritch

1 pacey defensive forward - Hunt

2 small forwards - ????

If everything is to be believed and we add both Langdon and Tomlinson ( included as a ruck for the sake of this exercise.)  small forward is the massive hole we need to fill. Hence the interest in Elliot. Apart from that we are left with ANB, Spargo, Chandler etc

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1 hour ago, X Factor said:

I see that we are going after Jamie Elliott.   Thats all well and good, but we need 3 or 4 legitimate small forwards, not just one.    Look no further than Richmond who have about 5 capable small forwards.

So why are we signing up plodders who will give us nothing (ie. Adam Tomlinson)  when we are desperate for legitimate crumbing forwards with speed and flair?   Where is the excitement?

It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.

You sound liked you're pretty convinced the club isn't going after a 'gun small forward'. Do you have inside knowledge or are you just writing off the idea because of what you have heard in media/rumor reports pre trading period?

Richmond have drafted well with their small forwards like Bolton and Rioli but they've also been lucky in drafting players who started in other positions and developed into other roles like Castagna (originally a backman).

27 minutes ago, X Factor said:

Thats a scary thought.

Bedfiord was a total flop at Casey.   Chandler was slightly better and at least showed he has a defensive side and that translated to AFL level in the last game.       Spargo is a mid not a forward.

We on the other hand have been unlucky but with quite a few players who we drafted to play as small forwards not working out. Bedford is very raw I would give him a few seasons to mature. Chandler and Spargo are also 19 yr olds who will need a bit of time to develop surely.

I get that you want to recruit 3 'gun small forwards' but it just isn't going to happen. We're looking at Jamie Elliot and I'm sure we are or have inquired about guys like Papley but we have other positions we need to fill. Tomlinson (tall marking wingman/HF) and Langdon (fast outside mid/wingman) are a good start. 

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I wondered if 'X factor'was some banned poster.  Even checked the profile.

I mean what poster starts their DL career with a new thread that includes this line in the OP:

'It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.'

I also wonder what sort of person goes to the effort of creating multiple user names with the sole aim of creating angst and silly discussions. If there isn't some medical condition that explains such a desire it i have no doubt there soon will be  - Trollopothy perhaps?  

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3 minutes ago, binman said:

I wondered if 'X factor'was some banned poster.  Even checked the profile.

I mean what poster starts their DL career with a new thread that includes this line in the OP:

'It is obvious that this club is not serious about winning and has no clue how to assemble a list.'

I also wonder what sort of person goes to the effort of creating multiple user names with the sole aim of creating angst and silly discussions. If there isn't some medical condition that explains such a desire it i have no doubt there soon will be  - Trollopothy perhaps?  

The better response would have been not to ban MB in that current guise.

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