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3 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Crazy to consider taking a 27 year old on big coin with years of chronic injuries. 

If we had a team of champions and could afford to take a risk then fair enough. 

But serious back and hamstring injuries never go away. 

We already have a team of crocs (some on big coin) for goodness sake. 

Bring to the club another bloke who may sit in the stands and unlikely to be a regular member of the team.

You can almost guarantee that he will have time on the injury list. 

And the Pies don’t let good players  go. They also have some of the best medical and injury management staff going around, light years ahead of the Dees. 

No more players who make fleeting appearances please. 

Foolhardy desperation. 

 

That's what concerns me. 

A big talent in an injured  body, who will demand big coin.

Anyway, I think the Pies won't let him leave, he will get his money from them.

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6 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Anyway, I think the Pies won't let him leave, he will get his money from them.

Or he doesn't want to leave at all.

The Pies have a dilemma though - do they up their offer to keep him, or do they keep that money to help them re-sign Grundy to a long term deal next year?

It's also interesting to see the numbers being floated about in this thread in regards to what we are offering him.  The Age article merely suggests that our offer would exceed what the Pies were offering him, but we have no idea what that is.  Pies might not be offering him much with their salary cap constraints, and therefore our offer might not need to be too much bigger to lure him across.

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The other side of this is if he does not come to us, Coll#$*wod will have to pay him top dollar making their salary cap harder to manage.

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24 minutes ago, rjay said:

If Hawthorn thought that way about Burgoyne where would they be?

spot on and Brian lake, and Stewie De.. we should be looking at what he can offer us, not what he wont offer us.

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29 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Crazy to consider taking a 27 year old on big coin with years of chronic injuries. 

If we had a team of champions and could afford to take a risk then fair enough. 

But serious back and hamstring injuries never go away. 

We already have a team of crocs (some on big coin) for goodness sake. 

Bring to the club another bloke who may sit in the stands and unlikely to be a regular member of the team.

You can almost guarantee that he will have time on the injury list. 

And the Pies don’t let good players  go. They also have some of the best medical and injury management staff going around, light years ahead of the Dees. 

No more players who make fleeting appearances please. 

Foolhardy desperation.

Agreed!

We already have KK and AvB with two years left on contracts who are effectively L-T injuries and probably won't play again.  We have Viney and TMac with unpredictable foot injuries (who played despite them this year).  Lever has flagged he may get ankle/knee injuries from time to time lever-keen-to-make-backline-a-force

A club really needs a list of 40 players who don't have known and potentially career ending injuries.  We will start the year a long way from that.  So, we will be relying on our depth players again.  And we don't bat deep when it comes to depth.

There will always be injuries but another player with known injury vulnerabilities just doesn't make sense. 

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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22 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A club really needs a list of 40 players who don't have known and potentially career ending injuries.

I mean, sure. 

But then there’s this annoying thing called reality. 

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We just finished second bottom so adding any talent that can kick goals has got to be an upgrade surely!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

I mean, sure. 

But then there’s this annoying thing called reality. 

Reality for me is that injuries will happen - its a contact sport. 

Reality is not adding players that are known to be injury prone to a list which already has a number of long-term injuries and players with significant injuries.  That is playing a high risk game.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
Added 'prone'
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28 minutes ago, Salems Lot said:

The other side of this is if he does not come to us, Coll#$*wod will have to pay him top dollar making their salary cap harder to manage.

For once we get to do this to another team. Makes it all the sweeter that it is to Collingwood. Bonus points if it puts them off even slightly during the finals. :)

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2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Reality for me is that injuries will happen - its a contact sport. 

Reality is not adding players that are known to be injury to a list which already has a number of long-term injuries and players with significant injuries.  That is playing a high risk game.

Yes, but you’re really limiting your options by restricting them to injury-free players. He got up for 15 matches this year, after zero the year before. That’s pretty good going, and it is quite possible that Dr. Wolf Fart has provided the assistance to help him turn that corner. 

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5 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Yes, but you’re really limiting your options by restricting them to injury-free players. He got up for 15 matches this year, after zero the year before. That’s pretty good going, and it is quite possible that Dr. Wolf Fart has provided the assistance to help him turn that corner. 

My last word:  I didn't say injury free; I said known, long-term injury vulnerabilities.  15 games in 2019 and several years without a game at all! 

Caveat emptor!

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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With the exception of zero games in 2016 & 2018 here are his stats from 2012-2019.

Year   Team   #   GM   W-D-L   KI   MK   HB   DI   GL   BH   HO   TK   RB   IF   CL   CG   FF   FA   BR   CP   UP   CM   MI   1%   BO   GA  
2012 Collingwood 35 15 11-0-4 99 57 55 154 6 11   62 1 37 3 20 5 4   56 104 9 8 19 2 4
2013 Collingwood 19 20 12-0-8 152 90 99 251 30 16   58 5 46 3 28 14 10 3 90 159 14 35 28 13 15
2014 Collingwood 19 17 10-0-7 190 101 66 256 33 11 1 60 13 46 15 41 13 14 6 93 164 12 33 26 9 9
2015 Collingwood 5 20 10-0-10 202 111 87 289 35 14 1 63 13 58 18 44 15 14 3 100 192 15 35 27 18 18
2017 Collingwood 5 17 8-1-8 163 103 76 239 34 16   38 1 42 6 40 12 15 1 78 162 11 35 22 13 7
2019 Collingwood 5 15 11-0-4 135 83 43 178 25 17   33   29 5 20 11 4   59 119 12 31 12 7 14
Totals 104 62-1-41 941 545 426 1367 163 85 2 314 33 258 50 193 70 61 13 476 900 73 177 134 62 67
Averages 17.33 60.10% 9.05 5.24 4.10 13.14 1.57 0.82 0.02 3.02 0.32 2.48 0.48 1.86 0.67 0.59 0.13 4.58 8.65 0.70 1.70 1.29 0.60 0.64
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37 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

Reality is not adding players that are known to be injury to a list which already has a number of long-term injuries...

I guess there’s a missing “prone” there. And I do see your point. But I would take the risk (and put some faith in the opinions of the all the medics involved - especially the German ones!), rather than hit 2020 without the prospect of an effective small forward being on the oval for any of our 22 matches.  

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10 hours ago, binman said:

Normally I would either ignore such a mindless, rubbish post or make some sarcastic, facetious comment.

Didn't want to do the first. Couldn't be bothered with the latter.

So I will instead I'll respectfully ask you to sod off.

 

2 hours ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

I’m honestly convinced that anyone disagreeing that we dont need someone like Elliot at the club truely doesnt want our club to succeed. 

 

2 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

You must be the fun guy at parties

Well I accept my comments were against the common flow of the thread and were over emotional but I get sick of most threads where a player looks like he might move and posters go "yes, yes, yes" without really thinking through the consequenses.

I also accept that he is a better player than Ben Ken was but is he that much of an upgrade on Kent who had good potential but couldn't and still can't get on the park?

We have spent the last three years "importing" talent and now as a result when Frost says "I've been the best defender this year, show me the money" we can't. Yet were throwing money at another "import".

I certainly want success for the club but the last two years of getting in May and Lever for NO success I think may have caused rumblings within the group. Personally I think it might be time to pull our heads in and go to the draft and develop our own talent.

Lastly the first two comments were just attacking me for having an opinion. pretty poor posts but Moonshadow I liked the humor, yeah I'm pretty .. no very boring when I talk footy, after all I barrack for Melbourne

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Elliot would be a nice feather in the cap but 2 full years on the sidelines and an approximately 5 to 8 + games missed every other year due to injuries worries me. Collingwood have world class facilities and people. Imagine the treatment he'll get at a third world club.

Great player when playing. Certainly light years better than any of our current small forwards but if misses large chunks of the year then we have shot ourselves in the foot and given our bad luck he'll probably never pull on the boots for the Dees.

I really do wonder where the Age got this leak from. Reeks of a manager holding Collingwood to ransom. I'm not suggesting we haven't made an offer. I just don't believe Elliot actually wants to come to the Dees and are just holding out for more mullah and a longer contract at the Pies.

Edited by raDeelaide
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Is Grundy still yet to commit as well? He’ll demand big coin on a long contract. I imagine they’d struggle to match our offer if Elliott were to accept it. 

Elliott might reject our offer from the outset, therefore it won’t force Collingwood to pay more than us to retain him. Interesting times ahead. 

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1 minute ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Is Grundy still yet to commit as well? He’ll demand big coin on a long contract. I imagine they’d struggle to match our offer if Elliott were to accept it. 

Elliott might reject our offer from the outset, therefore it won’t force Collingwood to pay more than us to retain him. Interesting times ahead. 

Good point ET, always got your mind across the big picture.

That's why you're the trade breaker

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56 minutes ago, deespicable me said:

I also accept that he is a better player than Ben Ken was but is he that much of an upgrade on Kent who had good potential but couldn't and still can't get on the park?

He's a huge upgrade on Kent...

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1 hour ago, Demonland said:

With the exception of zero games in 2016 & 2018 here are his stats from 2012-2019.

Year   Team   #   GM   W-D-L   KI   MK   HB   DI   GL   BH   HO   TK   RB   IF   CL   CG   FF   FA   BR   CP   UP   CM   MI   1%   BO   GA  
Totals 104 62-1-41 941 545 426 1367 163 85 2 314 33 258 50 193 70 61 13 476 900 73 177 134 62 67
Averages 17.33 60.10% 9.05 5.24 4.10 13.14 1.57 0.82 0.02 3.02 0.32 2.48 0.48 1.86 0.67 0.59 0.13 4.58 8.65 0.70 1.70 1.29 0.60 0.64
2012 Collingwood 35 15 11-0-4 99 57 55 154 6 11   62 1 37 3 20 5 4   56 104 9 8 19 2 4
2013 Collingwood 19 20 12-0-8 152 90 99 251 30 16   58 5 46 3 28 14 10 3 90 159 14 35 28 13 15
2014 Collingwood 19 17 10-0-7 190 101 66 256 33 11 1 60 13 46 15 41 13 14 6 93 164 12 33 26 9 9
2015 Collingwood 5 20 10-0-10 202 111 87 289 35 14 1 63 13 58 18 44 15 14 3 100 192 15 35 27 18 18
2017 Collingwood 5 17 8-1-8 163 103 76 239 34 16   38 1 42 6 40 12 15 1 78 162 11 35 22 13 7
2019 Collingwood 5 15 11-0-4 135 83 43 178 25 17   33   29 5 20 11 4   59 119 12 31 12 7 14

Needs to work on his hit-outs.

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17 hours ago, Cards13 said:

TG you off to the members forum?

Why?

 

So I can get 'reassured' with rhetoric; and the "we understand your frustration" template answer.

I recall Goody saying:

- "top 4 doesn't mean anything to us anymore" in pre-season 2018/19

- "we wont review the prelim because that is not the way we (want to) play".  If anything was preview of 2019, it was that bloody game.

- "trust me, we will be able to score"

- "Our preseason surgeries have meant that full fitness and cohesion will come later."...or words to that effect.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Redleg said:

That's what concerns me. 

A big talent in an injured  body, who will demand big coin.

Anyway, I think the Pies won't let him leave, he will get his money from them.

Pies might be forced to.  Their Beams is our Lever...for different reasons obviously.

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The injury cloud could be an issue and club's have been known to tell the odd porky pie over the years (cough cough!) but if there's any truth to the comments from Bucks below he might not be as badly off as some are suggesting.  Need to put a caveat on the contract amount & terms regardless though.  Is it possible to put some sort performance based / time on ground trigger into the contract?...

“He’s put in a good block of form. No one wants to be injured ever and when you’ve had a history of it, you don’t like to re-injure. But the block of work he’s put in will sustain him and will have him in good nick — that’s the positive aspect of it,” Buckley said.

“There’s always a worst-case scenario, but that’s going to be a product of the work Billy puts in now and our ability to pull the right levers to continue to have him grow that strength in his whole posterior chain, not just his hammies.

“We know how much work he’s put in, so he’ll be rewarded.”

Elliott and teammate Darcy Moore flew to Germany last November to see world-renowned doctor Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt to help overcome their hamstring issues.

End.

Extract courtesy of SEN - May 2019

Edited by Rusty Nails

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2 hours ago, Dee Watcher said:

We just finished second bottom so adding any talent that can kick goals has got to be an upgrade surely!

 

 

If they can play at full capacity and often.

Not sure about this bloke.

If there’s a doubt, leave him out , would be my view.

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