15 minutes ago, demon-4-life said:

This girl may have come forward in private about seeing what can be done about an incident overseas to hang some player out to dry and made it all up.

She also could have been sexually assaulted. 

Which do you think is the more likely? 

 

Likelihood does not make a fact.  In an earlier post I indicated where I thought the probabilities lay.  But that is 'in general'.  For this specific case we know nothing and should say as much.

19 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

This will be challenging for the MFC.

We need to start with two key principles:

• Protection and support of the victim to get justice and recovery from the incident; and
• The presumption of innocence until proven guilty for the player concerned.

Sometimes these two principles seem at odds, and all involved have to juggle these.

Once the legal and moral aspects of the case have been resolved, we then get to how the club responds.  Can they ‘sack’ the player when what they (allegedly) did was during time off, overseas etc?  Are there clauses for ‘disrepute’ or similar in contracts?  Should they have variable rules for their response based upon the profile of the person involved and their ‘importance’ to the club in 2018?  What processes can they put in place around support, training , ‘punishment’, reparation, etc for the individual, if they are proven to be guilty?  At what point in the ‘scale’ of potential actions does this shift from a ‘minor’ to a ‘major’ infraction?  All of these are critical questions that will determine how the club responds, what they want to try and achieve, and how their response will be perceived.

The club has done nothing wrong so far.  They are left now with a series of challenging circumstances in which to respond.  I hope the board is meeting and making some clear process decisions regarding how they will respond, so the MFC can do so quickly and competently in line with the club’s values as things in this story are made known or resolved.

 

 

and as players are under contract you would have to consider the likelihood of paying out the player maybe a couple of million bucks. so reward and punishment at the same time for something that never went even near a court.

there is no easy solution if the player contests the allegation. the club is in a very difficult situation as the current situation stands. no doubt the player in question has probably approached the aflpa and advised him he under no obligation to self incriminate.

59 minutes ago, Nasher said:

What? Hell no. The club's position should not vary depending on how good the player is.

The club has a difficult decision to make. If facts come to light that suggest the player is in real trouble, he should be sacked immediately, or at the very least, stood down. If it's one of our better players, tough luck. The club simply cannot be seen to overlook an alleged sexual assault just because the accused is good at footy. That's exactly the kind of societal attitude that needs stamping it. It doesn't matter who you are or what your status is: it just isn't acceptable.

There are varying degrees of assault.

Are you suggesting a player should be sacked immediately for any infraction that falls under the category of sexual assault ?

19 hours ago, sue said:

But there is such a thing as a vexatious complaint.  So it is not yet 'a fact' that she feels violated.   She may well be, she may not.  Assign probabilities as you wish.  But we have no fact at this stage.  I know in the Trump era facts can be fluid, but let's stick to using the word in its original meaning.

If she feels violated and expresses so, then it ends there. Regardless of agreed upon facts. 

 

There are no legal tests to determine how a person feels in any given situation so this point is moot. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

What? Hell no. The club's position should not vary depending on how good the player is.

The club has a difficult decision to make. If facts come to light that suggest the player is in real trouble, he should be sacked immediately, or at the very least, stood down. If it's one of our better players, tough luck. The club simply cannot be seen to overlook an alleged sexual assault just because the accused is good at footy. That's exactly the kind of societal attitude that needs stamping it. It doesn't matter who you are or what your status is: it just isn't acceptable.

Dead right. 

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I don't know why people bother going on an overseas holiday to Bali when they can simply see the same flogs in Melbourne's CBD on a Saturday night.

Spot on!  Bali is just another bogan suburb of Australia with cheaper booze and beaches.  Add Phuket and Pattaya to that list.  Western bogans know how to [censored] up once beautiful locations in the world.

5 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Why would the complaint not be made in Bali? Not sure how anything can proceed outside of the jurisdiction. 

Lol I see your point. Bali police stations are definitely a safe and effective place to report hard-to-prosecute sexual crimes, especially if reporting it may also involve implicating people in other unlawful activity which the Bali police would of course take no interest in. Plus, there's the certainty they offer that their respect for privacy is a solid seal and that absolutely nothing involving a high-profile Australian would ever be leaked.

It is genuinely possible that whoever the person who made the complaint is, they had enough awareness to know that dealing with it in Bali would immediately create a media spectacle that would do no good for anyone.

The complainant is probably aware that there is little hope for a formal prosecution, and yet they still haven't gone public to seek revenge-shaming 'justice'.

That is all we know about them at this point and it suggests we should be respecting them even more than the assumption of respect that they deserve automatically.

1 hour ago, demon-4-life said:

Let me use 2 examples:

I once stole a picnic bar from a milk bar when I was 12. The store owner saw me and ran after me until she gave up. A crime was committed, but no charge no report. It still happened. This sums up the #metoo movement. It happens, but people don't speak up enough and just accept it.

Second scenario. in that same scenario, the Milk bar owner calls the cops to make a statement. The cops tell her, there isn't much we can do. There's no footage, it's your word against his. This sums up the Bali incident.

now let's replace me stealing a picnic bar with groping, sexually assaulting and a bunch of other vulgar terms. Let's assume there was no media. No one would hear about it. No "facts". 

Sooooo let's defend the "alleged" perpetrator. We're never going to find out the "facts". 

I know there can be false claims. I know I'm sounding self righteous right now. I'm doing so because I can easily count over 10 of my friends who have been groped, raped, drugged who haven't spoken up about it due to being horrified at the responses of "your skirt was really short" or "you shouldn't have drunk that much" or "why didn't you push him away". 

Or..."you had a lot to drink, are you sure that your memory is right? Make sure you get the FACTs right." 

This is the last I'll post on this topic. I just feel people need to think about the likelihoods.

This girl may have come forward in private about seeing what can be done about an incident overseas to hang some player out to dry and made it all up.

She also could have been sexually assaulted. 

Which do you think is the more likely? 

 

As someone with many years investigative experience I would advise many to just let this ride out. No complaint is the same and for various reasons the complainant doesn't always tell the truth for a number of reasons.

I've investigated many incidents where the complainant has held details back due to trauma inflicted and not wishing to relive it again 

Boys can be stupid and alcohol can cloud their judgement but there can also be situations where regret and feelings of shame can make people twist the truth for a justification for their sexual inhibitions.

We are not the only club to have a player subject to such an allegation this off season we are just the club whose allegation hit the media 

 

3 hours ago, Nasher said:

What? Hell no. The club's position should not vary depending on how good the player is.

The club has a difficult decision to make. If facts come to light that suggest the player is in real trouble, he should be sacked immediately, or at the very least, stood down. If it's one of our better players, tough luck. The club simply cannot be seen to overlook an alleged sexual assault just because the accused is good at footy. That's exactly the kind of societal attitude that needs stamping it. It doesn't matter who you are or what your status is: it just isn't acceptable.

Totally agree.  Players position is irrelevant.  One rule for all.  No exceptions.

A genuine Question:

What if the facts (which hopefully are not made public) show the club there is some truth to the allegation and her view is accepted as probable and the player is 'in real trouble'.  She subsequently decides she does not wish to put herself thru the public trauma of a legal process so the player's legal guilt/innocence will not be tested in court.  

Do you think the club will sack/stand down the player?  

Edited December 22, 20177 yr by Lucifer's Hero

l couldn't agree more with smokey's view.Little Golly always validating a presumed assumption on his part.cheers

44 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

It is genuinely possible that whoever the person who made the complaint is, they had enough awareness to know that dealing with it in Bali would immediately create a media spectacle that would do no good for anyone.

That is all we know about them at this point and it suggests we should be respecting them even more than the assumption of respect that they deserve automatically.

Interesting.

 

3 hours ago, Nasher said:

What? Hell no. The club's position should not vary depending on how good the player is.

The club has a difficult decision to make. If facts come to light that suggest the player is in real trouble, he should be sacked immediately, or at the very least, stood down. If it's one of our better players, tough luck. The club simply cannot be seen to overlook an alleged sexual assault just because the accused is good at footy. That's exactly the kind of societal attitude that needs stamping it. It doesn't matter who you are or what your status is: it just isn't acceptable.

I think we will perform better without the player in the team (Be it temp or permanent), if this was an on-going saga that lingers into next year, no matter how talented the player is or how integral they are to the structure.

Edited December 22, 20177 yr by Doodle Dee

mods can all this off topic crap be moved to a new thread in the general forum....thanks

Edited December 22, 20177 yr by daisycutter

I've deleted the last several pages of gender pay gap discussion as it's not relevant to this discussion. If you want to discuss it then please start a new thread on the general board. 

1 minute ago, Demonland said:

I've deleted the last several pages of gender pay gap discussion as it's not relevant to this discussion. If you want to discuss it then please start a new thread on the general board. 

Why can't we delete our own posts any more Demonland? 

It's very annoying.

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

There are varying degrees of assault.

Are you suggesting a player should be sacked immediately for any infraction that falls under the category of sexual assault ?

No, I'm not. I was addressing a point someone made about how the club response should vary depending on who the player is. The penalty should vary depending on the gravity and veracity of the allegation.

4 hours ago, demon-4-life said:

Let me use 2 examples:

I once stole a picnic bar from a milk bar when I was 12. The store owner saw me and ran after me until she gave up. A crime was committed, but no charge no report. It still happened. This sums up the #metoo movement. It happens, but people don't speak up enough and just accept it.

Second scenario. in that same scenario, the Milk bar owner calls the cops to make a statement. The cops tell her, there isn't much we can do. There's no footage, it's your word against his. This sums up the Bali incident.

now let's replace me stealing a picnic bar with groping, sexually assaulting and a bunch of other vulgar terms. Let's assume there was no media. No one would hear about it. No "facts". 

Sooooo let's defend the "alleged" perpetrator. We're never going to find out the "facts". 

I know there can be false claims. I know I'm sounding self righteous right now. I'm doing so because I can easily count over 10 of my friends who have been groped, raped, drugged who haven't spoken up about it due to being horrified at the responses of "your skirt was really short" or "you shouldn't have drunk that much" or "why didn't you push him away". 

Or..."you had a lot to drink, are you sure that your memory is right? Make sure you get the FACTs right." 

This is the last I'll post on this topic. I just feel people need to think about the likelihoods.

This girl may have come forward in private about seeing what can be done about an incident overseas to hang some player out to dry and made it all up.

She also could have been sexually assaulted. 

Which do you think is the more likely? 

 

Who knows what the real facts are though? Maybe she hooked up with a footy player expecting to get a long term relationship out of it and he was only looking at a one night stand. I've heard of just as many psycho women as I have "alpha male" wankers. 

Nasher..."alleged sexual assault". That's it right now. It's alleged. Foot off the pedal until any legal action is initiated which I think is highly unlikely. The AFL can't act like a kangaroo court without investigation, verification and charges laid from the responsible jurisdictional authority in Indonesia. Of course it's a bad look for the MFC and smoke/fire etc. But let's follow due process as I've said previously.

6 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Totally agree.  Players position is irrelevant.  One rule for all.  No exceptions. 

...

Do you think the club will sack/stand down the player?  

Malthouse's Razor. When Malthouse was still coaching he swore blind that there were no favourites, each player was treated equally, etc. After he retired he freely admitted that of course the better players are treated differently. A fringe player acting up got punished or delisted and a star would get a slap on the wrist for the same thing.

Depends on who this MFC player turns out to be ... if a star, the club will do everything it can to keep him. If a fringe player, they will probably be sacked. (All contingent on an assault actually happening and how bad it is.)

Malthouse's Razor. The amount of effort to keep things under wraps and protect the player is proportional to how indispensable the player is.

MFC will prove to be as indulgent and selectively forgiving as every other club.

10 hours ago, Nasher said:

What? Hell no. The club's position should not vary depending on how good the player is.

The club has a difficult decision to make. If facts come to light that suggest the player is in real trouble, he should be sacked immediately, or at the very least, stood down. If it's one of our better players, tough luck. The club simply cannot be seen to overlook an alleged sexual assault just because the accused is good at footy. That's exactly the kind of societal attitude that needs stamping it. It doesn't matter who you are or what your status is: it just isn't acceptable.

Spot on, mate. I'm hardline on this. If it's one of our better players, I couldn't give a toss. I'd strongly encourage the club to step down the player and if charges are laid, sack them altogether. I've no time for scum and it's scum that commits sexual assault.

37 minutes ago, A F said:

Spot on, mate. I'm hardline on this. If it's one of our better players, I couldn't give a toss. I'd strongly encourage the club to step down the player and if charges are laid, sack them altogether. I've no time for scum and it's scum that commits sexual assault.

Step down the player as the matter currently stands?

Don’t get me wrong, if down the track a player was charged and convicted of course I agree, sack him. But based on what we’ve been told and what we know I don’t agree with standing down the player. A statement hasn’t been provided to police nor has the woman engaged with police since the initial disclosure. 

Edited December 22, 20177 yr by Ethan Tremblay

3 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Malthouse's Razor. When Malthouse was still coaching he swore blind that there were no favourites, each player was treated equally, etc. After he retired he freely admitted that of course the better players are treated differently. A fringe player acting up got punished or delisted and a star would get a slap on the wrist for the same thing.

Depends on who this MFC player turns out to be ... if a star, the club will do everything it can to keep him. If a fringe player, they will probably be sacked. (All contingent on an assault actually happening and how bad it is.)

Malthouse's Razor. The amount of effort to keep things under wraps and protect the player is proportional to how indispensable the player is.

MFC will prove to be as indulgent and selectively forgiving as every other club.

Also known as the Dan Jackson/Dusty Martin conundrum.

1 hour ago, A F said:

Spot on, mate. I'm hardline on this. If it's one of our better players, I couldn't give a toss. I'd strongly encourage the club to step down the player and if charges are laid, sack them altogether. I've no time for scum and it's scum that commits sexual assault.

That's several steps down the road though. We don't even know what is alleged to have happened yet or what the players side of the story is. I agree with you if there is a proven incident of serious sexual assault but if it's an unfounded allegation the club won't do anything.

9 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Malthouse's Razor. The amount of effort to keep things under wraps and protect the player is proportional to how indispensable the player is.

MFC will prove to be as indulgent and selectively forgiving as every other club.

Indispensable - that covers 1 or 2 of the 4 players in Bali. 

I suspect you are right - we won't be hearing much more about it.  If for no other reason than the girl doesn't want her name and picture splashed all over the place and become the subject of social media abuse.  It takes a very brave, brave person to take on the might of the AFL especially if a big name player is involved.

I think the broom and the carpet are waiting.

The club needs to do their best to get to the bottom of this as difficult as that may be. I have no idea of whether innocent or guilty but I do know that three players are under the microscope unfairly