2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There absolute is, my point is Brown isn't one of them. Until our pressure is consistently good I don't think we should bring in guys who aren't improving us in that area. Any gains we make with goal kicking won't be substantial unless we've got the rest of the side right.

If our pressure isn't consistently good then Brown won't make a difference good or bad.

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There absolute is, my point is Brown isn't one of them. Until our pressure is consistently good I don't think we should bring in guys who aren't improving us in that area. Any gains we make with goal kicking won't be substantial unless we've got the rest of the side right.

I think bringing in Brown would just require us to re-think our mid-size and small forwards. Brown is a clear upgrade, and a big one, on every other player in our forward line. And has better consistent form than both Jeremy Cameron and Joe Daniher. The problem is that none of our mid-sizers like Fritsch, Melksham etc. are good at locking the ball in our f50. It’s why Kozzie is so important and why we should think about playing Viney and Harmes forward more.

Lynch didn’t exactly apply a lot of pressure tonight, getting tackles and second efforts from your big men are good but they aren’t necessarily expected. 

Need high pressure from your small/mid sized players which is why we need more of that from the likes of Melksham, AvB, Pickett, and Fritsch. Plus any midfielders that push inside there. That’s the basic expectation from any premiership winning team, high intensity around the ball. 

Brown (if he makes it here) will be expected to mark the ball and when he can’t make sure he brings it to ground for our smaller forwards. 

2 hours ago, Skuit said:

Not sure how serious . . .?

It was posted by someone on one of the various FB trading pages.

Both have same surnames so must be brothers right? 

Anyway, not long after that it was posted here.

Tom Browne will probably pick up the little know scoop shortly.

18 minutes ago, Pates said:

Lynch didn’t exactly apply a lot of pressure tonight, getting tackles and second efforts from your big men are good but they aren’t necessarily expected. 

Need high pressure from your small/mid sized players which is why we need more of that from the likes of Melksham, AvB, Pickett, and Fritsch. Plus any midfielders that push inside there. That’s the basic expectation from any premiership winning team, high intensity around the ball. 

Brown (if he makes it here) will be expected to mark the ball and when he can’t make sure he brings it to ground for our smaller forwards. 

Lynch had 16 pressure acts and 3 tackles, Hawkins 13 and 3, Riewoldt 11 and 3. All are actively engaged with chasing and tackling and great movers (or were, Jack's slowing down a bit). 

19 hours ago, John Demonic said:

 

Yep, I love Midnight Oil as well.

16 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

Lets offer 3 years at 650K, a haircut and Guarantee at least 20 free kicks for flopping. Lock it in!

Not sure we have room in the salary cap for the haircut!

5 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

There absolute is, my point is Brown isn't one of them. Until our pressure is consistently good I don't think we should bring in guys who aren't improving us in that area. Any gains we make with goal kicking won't be substantial unless we've got the rest of the side right.

Since 2018 Brown averages 7.1 forward-half pressure acts and Hawkins 7.4. But TMac averages 8.8 so we should probably just keep him instead. 

Lynch creates opportunities due to his size, he’s just a big strong body to contain for a full 4 quarters.

Same will happen with Brown, he’s a big bloke with very long arms. 
 

You could argue on last night’s game that neither of Lynch or Riewoldt had a great game themselves, but they were there, so opportunities arose.

Geelong on the other hand were using Danger as a more permanent forward and he was doing everything he could to create opportunities, but he’s just not quite big enough to cause any real headaches for a Grimes type defender.

Geelong’s weekness has long been their forward half and their ‘keepings off’ game style has been created to try and reduce the impact of this. They know this and Jeremy Cameron will go a long way to fixing this

Edited October 24, 20204 yr by BW511

Not overly excited by Brown, Polec or either of their haircuts.

6 hours ago, FireInTheBennelly said:

Yep, I love Midnight Oil as well.

For the record, I love the way Peter and Ben flail their arms around. Its unco poetry in motion!

Do supporters realise there's a limited pool of players moving club each year ?  Do they realise their club is restricted to those limited choices ?

Do they want their list to improve ?

You may not be overly excited by Polec, but do you think he'll make the list worse ?  Who else do you think is available if you don't want him ?  Ball butcher Phillips ?  Who else ?

Not to mention I reckon some people posting here have no great grasp on opposition players anyway.  They see them fleetingly yet make concrete opinions based on small samples.  Yet when one of their players is set to be traded, like Preuss, they're suddenly worth a pick in the 20s.

What if I said to you we can recruit the player who's kicked the second most goals in the AFL since 2017 without giving up a heap ?

3 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Not overly excited by Brown, Polec or either of their haircuts.

It's not a modelling or hair fashion competition It's a football list precessions yo improve and that why we should embrace any decent player and give him a chance to break a rather long drought fir a glad.

Not sure  about everyone one but as every season  snd GF passes I am More impatient than ever fir success.

Lrts give our boys the best chance In 2021 and beyond. 

5 hours ago, Skuit said:

Since 2018 Brown averages 7.1 forward-half pressure acts and Hawkins 7.4. But TMac averages 8.8 so we should probably just keep him instead. 

That is about equal for pressure but another tall marking player WILL put pressure on defences like Lynch has at Tigers.

Brown  will be an asset And his accuracy a boost as well. 

1 hour ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Do supporters realise there's a limited pool of players moving club each year ?  Do they realise their club is restricted to those limited choices ?

Do they want their list to improve ?

You may not be overly excited by Polec, but do you think he'll make the list worse ?  Who else do you think is available if you don't want him ?  Ball butcher Phillips ?  Who else ?

Not to mention I reckon some people posting here have no great grasp on opposition players anyway.  They see them fleetingly yet make concrete opinions based on small samples.  Yet when one of their players is set to be traded, like Preuss, they're suddenly worth a pick in the 20s.

What if I said to you we can recruit the player who's kicked the second most goals in the AFL since 2017 without giving up a heap ?

This

10 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

why we should think about playing Viney and Harmes forward more.

Absolutely, and it will bring out more run-time and evasiveness from Melksham - and even forward-located Tracca who can kick 'em, too. Fritta will benefit on the flanks as he is a ball-getter, so let's hope his kicking practices evolve into scoring accuracy from such influences. Overall, the game plans must be ready and personnel-equipped far more strongly, as well. 

43 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

 

Not to mention I reckon some people posting here have no great grasp on opposition players anyway.  They see them fleetingly yet make concrete opinions based on small samples.  Yet when one of their players is set to be traded, like Preuss, they're suddenly worth a pick in the 20s.

What if I said to you we can recruit the player who's kicked the second most goals in the AFL since 2017 without giving up a heap?¹

Good post. 

I'm a bit in the boat of not having a great grasp of opposition players. Hard to if you don't watch them regularly.

I have watched more non dees games this year than I ever have (last few seasons I pretty much only watched dees games). And in doing so it is a good reminder that the pool is pretty shallow and players i might have think have a particular skill set, say elite kicking (something i look for) make their fair share of errors. Saad and Williams are two good examples.

The related thing that annoys me is complaints about over paying for players we need, at least for mid range players, like hibbetd or tomlinson. Bottom line if a club does not draft and develop the right mix of players it is st the mercy of tbe market.

But from a market perspective Brown is a no brainer. We need a decent big forward. And can get one for a decent price. Where's the issue.

On polec he too is a bargain but to be honest whilst I like his skills he is one of those players I haven't watched enough to make a judgement. Cant imagine goody would like a player who was not picked because of his defensive efforts, but we need skill because of the stupid decision to focus so much on contested ball winners so hw might be worth the gamble m given the low cost.

On Brown it is ironic we need a big forward and we are looking to trade tmac. For the life of me  given his weight and lack of mobility this season, why they didn't plsy tmac out of the square.

But be that as it may  Hannibal, your assertion in 2017 that tmac was no forward (which I argued against then) has been proven to be correct.

Yes he kicked goals in 2018 but that was with Hogan in the team and in large part a function of his mobility and our quick transition. But he has never looked a natural forward and has little forward craft. Unlike Brown who looks every inch a natural forward.

 

18 minutes ago, binman said:

Good post. 

I'm a bit in the boat of not having a great grasp of opposition players. Hard to if you don't watch them regularly.

I have watched more non dees games this year than I ever have (last few seasons I pretty much only watched dees games). And in doing so it is a good reminder that the pool is pretty shallow and players i might have think have a particular skill set, say elite kicking (something i look for) make their fair share of errors. Saad and Williams are two good examples.

The related thing that annoys me is complaints about over paying for players we need, at least for mid range players, like hibbetd or tomlinson. Bottom line if a club does not draft and develop the right mix of players it is st the mercy of tbe market.

But from a market perspective Brown is a no brainer. We need a decent big forward. And can get one for a decent price. Where's the issue.

On polec he too is a bargain but to be honest whilst I like his skills he is one of those players I haven't watched enough to make a judgement. Cant imagine goody would like a player who was not picked because of his defensive efforts, but we need skill because of the stupid decision to focus so much on contested ball winners so hw might be worth the gamble m given the low cost.

On Brown it is ironic we need a big forward and we are looking to trade tmac. For the life of me  given his weight and lack of mobility this season, why they didn't plsy tmac out of the square.

But be that as it may  Hannibal, your assertion in 2017 that tmac was no forward (which I argued against then) has been proven to be correct.

Yes he kicked goals in 2018 but that was with Hogan in the team and in large part a function of his mobility and our quick transition. But he has never looked a natural forward and has little forward craft. Unlike Brown who looks every inch a natural forward.

 

I think brown would have struggled with the style of play last night. The pressure was a million miles from games where I have seen him tear us apart leading into open space. Hope I am wrong but see no evidence of him being a finals type player.

12 minutes ago, binman said:

I'm a bit in the boat of not having a great grasp of opposition players. Hard to if you don't watch them regularly.

...

I like learning from experienced players that have played in premierships and been part of a rebuild.  Players that have seen the whole journey up the ladder.  And I particularly like listening to Luke Hodge.  He talks sense and is straight to the point.

Very recently he said that the difference between being a good team and becoming a flag team is recruiting role players.  Obviously, the stars are already in place, but a handful of stars aren't enough if you don't surround them with players who can help complete the task.  Think Hale, Poppy, Guerra etc. at Hawthorn.  You really need 22 players performing their role to a high degree.  21 or 20 will leave you short and cost games.  Richmond are a perfect example of how lesser lights who perform their role to a high level make an enormous difference.

You only need to look at the top 20 of our B&F.  There was a chasm between the top 12 and the performances of the rest.  In reality, to win more games than we lost shows how good our better players performed, because they weren't being supported.  I blame the lack of quality role players, but also the coaching panel, game structures, etc. 

I think we've got the core group of stars or very good players already on our list, but we're lacking quality role players to take us forward.  A great core group, but not great/quality depth. 

Not every player we're looking at recruiting this trade period needs to be a star.  They'll ALL have deficiencies that Deespencer can pick apart, but if we choose wisely we might just bring in players that can have a significant difference to our overall fortunes.

8 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I like learning from experienced players that have played in premierships and been part of a rebuild.  Players that have seen the whole journey up the ladder.  And I particularly like listening to Luke Hodge.  He talks sense and is straight to the point.

Very recently he said that the difference between being a good team and becoming a flag team is recruiting role players.  Obviously, the stars are already in place, but a handful of stars aren't enough if you don't surround them with players who can help complete the task.  Think Hale, Poppy, Guerra etc. at Hawthorn.  You really need 22 players performing their role to a high degree.  21 or 20 will leave you short and cost games.  Richmond are a perfect example of how lesser lights who perform their role to a high level make an enormous difference.

You only need to look at the top 20 of our B&F.  There was a chasm between the top 12 and the performances of the rest.  In reality, to win more games than we lost shows how good our better players performed, because they weren't being supported.  I blame the lack of quality role players, but also the coaching panel, game structures, etc. 

I think we've got the core group of stars or very good players already on our list, but we're lacking quality role players to take us forward.  A great core group, but not great/quality depth. 

Not every player we're looking at recruiting this trade period needs to be a star.  They'll ALL have deficiencies that Deespencer can pick apart, but if we choose wisely we might just bring in players that can have a significant difference to our overall fortunes.

Spot on H.  Great post.

Yep. 

The need for players to play their role, something players reference all the the time, has never been greater. Makes it hard to assess performance in some instances. 

This is true of both the mid range players and the best. For example most fans  including me  thought Oliver had a better second half of the season than the first. But the bluey numbers don't reflect that (or perhaps his rumoured robust exit interview). Maybe that is related to role?

I agree the big issue for the dees is not the top 12 players, it is the next 28

48 minutes ago, binman said:

Good post. 

I'm a bit in the boat of not having a great grasp of opposition players. Hard to if you don't watch them regularly.

I have watched more non dees games this year than I ever have (last few seasons I pretty much only watched dees games). And in doing so it is a good reminder that the pool is pretty shallow and players i might have think have a particular skill set, say elite kicking (something i look for) make their fair share of errors. Saad and Williams are two good examples.

The related thing that annoys me is complaints about over paying for players we need, at least for mid range players, like hibbetd or tomlinson. Bottom line if a club does not draft and develop the right mix of players it is st the mercy of tbe market.

But from a market perspective Brown is a no brainer. We need a decent big forward. And can get one for a decent price. Where's the issue.

On polec he too is a bargain but to be honest whilst I like his skills he is one of those players I haven't watched enough to make a judgement. Cant imagine goody would like a player who was not picked because of his defensive efforts, but we need skill because of the stupid decision to focus so much on contested ball winners so hw might be worth the gamble m given the low cost.

On Brown it is ironic we need a big forward and we are looking to trade tmac. For the life of me  given his weight and lack of mobility this season, why they didn't plsy tmac out of the square.

But be that as it may  Hannibal, your assertion in 2017 that tmac was no forward (which I argued against then) has been proven to be correct.

Yes he kicked goals in 2018 but that was with Hogan in the team and in large part a function of his mobility and our quick transition. But he has never looked a natural forward and has little forward craft. Unlike Brown who looks every inch a natural forward.

 

#bentoveranddidontlikeit

?

Edited October 25, 20204 yr by Cards13

35 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

I think brown would have struggled with the style of play last night. The pressure was a million miles from games where I have seen him tear us apart leading into open space. Hope I am wrong but see no evidence of him being a finals type player.

The point is the opposition have to play their best defender on him and then someone else pops up

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

The point is the opposition have to play their best defender on him and then someone else pops up

Rubbish. Richmond would have easily covered him with a number of options. He has a very poor finals record. Average 8 disposals and that was before the congestion of todays finals.

17 minutes ago, binman said:

 

I agree the big issue for the dees is not the top 12 players, it is the next 28

Yes, we have a band of players beyond the top 12 who should be roll players but simply do not have the skills to fulfil that job. The roll players at Richmond are able to minimise errors or turnovers that cost goals. I note that several players interviewed after the game last night mentioned "the process", trust the process, or execute the process well. Even when they were behind in the first half, these guys knew if they played their roll it would turn around.

As a side note, North will have a stack of vacancies on their list. Brown, Higgins, Polec and the 11 delisted already. Possibly more. I suspect if they cannot attract players beyond Corr, they will look to load up on picks. How they do that well with no coach or assistants is another matter. Will be an interesting trade week