The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

our forwards haven't functioned for two years, it will not again without change. What that change looks like is the question. In fact, the 2018 blip aside, it hasn't functioned for a very long time. By function I mean conversion relative to opportunity.

Talk of building structure around Weids, Jackson, Brown, is reinforcing this when you consider Fritsch is our most likely to generate a scoring opportunity.  To many of our forwards like to get the easy over the back goal, not the far harder presenting to the ball carrier (leading up the ground).  This may also be a reflection on our midfielders who prefer to hit the safe and easier to hit lead into the pocket; rather than pinpointing a lead at pace towards the ball carrier  which generates seperation, but has less margin for error (kick).

 

Edited October 3, 20204 yr by Ungarieboy

11 minutes ago, Ungarieboy said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

our forwards haven't functioned for two years, it will not again without change. What that change looks like is the question. In fact, the 2018 blip aside, it hasn't functioned for a very long time. By function I mean conversion relative to opportunity.

Talk of building structure around Weids, Jackson, Brown, is reinforcing this when you consider Fritsch is our most likely to generate a scoring opportunity.  To many of our forwards like to get the easy over the back goal, not the far harder presenting to the ball carrier (leading up the ground).  This may also be a reflection on our midfielders who prefer to hit the safe and easier to hit lead into the pocket; rather than pinpointing a lead at pace towards the ball carrier  which generates seperation, but has less margin for error (kick).

We know the problem - what is the solution?

18 minutes ago, Ungarieboy said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

our forwards haven't functioned for two years, it will not again without change. What that change looks like is the question. In fact, the 2018 blip aside, it hasn't functioned for a very long time. By function I mean conversion relative to opportunity.

Talk of building structure around Weids, Jackson, Brown, is reinforcing this when you consider Fritsch is our most likely to generate a scoring opportunity.  To many of our forwards like to get the easy over the back goal, not the far harder presenting to the ball carrier (leading up the ground).  This may also be a reflection on our midfielders who prefer to hit the safe and easier to hit lead into the pocket; rather than pinpointing a lead at pace towards the ball carrier  which generates seperation, but has less margin for error (kick).

 

So if you were a professional club you would address that area over the off season, in changing personnel and in the pre season, by practising leading and delivery while pressured, with the mids and forwards. 
Do we do both?

Edited October 3, 20204 yr by Redleg

I am not savvy enough to post a link from today's Hun, but Bevo's response to last night's 3 point loss to the Saints is to announce big changes to their side before Round 1 2020.

Now that is how you attempt to fix a problem.

Contrast that response with Goodwin post 2018 Prelim Final. We are still in denial, defending an outdated game plan hoping like hell it can succeed again.

I agree with Ungarieboy. We need a fresh approach to a long stsnding problem.

That is what a coach is paid to do. Identify and attempt to fix shortfalls in order to advance team success.

Edited October 3, 20204 yr by Hot as Hell
Typo

2 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I am not savvy enough to post a link from today's Hun, but Bevo's response to last night's 3 point loss to the Saints is to announce big changes to their side before Round 1 2020.

Now that is how you attempt to fix a problem.

Contrast that response with Goodwin post 2018 Prelim Final. We are still in denial, defending an outdated game plan hoping like hell it can succeed again.

I agree with Ungarieboy. We need a fresh approach to a long stsnding problem.

 

the bulldogs were a side of undelivered potential this year. they scraped in and lost their first final. in 2018 we also had that “ potential” tag. but we also lost a lot of close games .. the two to Geelong come to mind . imo we absolutely should have been top 4 we then WON our first 2 finals before losing to a WC side we’d beaten 3 weeks earlier. So, i don’t agree we needed an overhaul after the prelim and i supported goody in that position. honestly i think we need to put this to bed..... rule changes and game plans evolved and in 2019 it was apparent we now had the wrong kind of list to adjust as easily as others,  it was hard to foresee in the off season what the changes would bring. as well we had a seemingly lost coach who couldn’t clearly steer the side thru the changes and injuries. 

Imo it’s what we didn’t do w our game plan and recruiting last off season that needs to come under the microscope... not post 2018. 

17 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I am not savvy enough to post a link from today's Hun, but Bevo's response to last night's 3 point loss to the Saints is to announce big changes to their side before Round 1 2020.

Now that is how you attempt to fix a problem.

Contrast that response with Goodwin post 2018 Prelim Final. We are still in denial, defending an outdated game plan hoping like hell it can succeed again.

I agree with Ungarieboy. We need a fresh approach to a long stsnding problem.

That is what a coach is paid to do. Identify and attempt to fix shortfalls in order to advance team success.

We traded Jesse Hogan for May at the end of 2018. So we made list changes. 

29 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I am not savvy enough to post a link from today's Hun, but Bevo's response to last night's 3 point loss to the Saints is to announce big changes to their side before Round 1 2020.

Now that is how you attempt to fix a problem.

Contrast that response with Goodwin post 2018 Prelim Final. We are still in denial, defending an outdated game plan hoping like hell it can succeed again.

I agree with Ungarieboy. We need a fresh approach to a long stsnding problem.

That is what a coach is paid to do. Identify and attempt to fix shortfalls in order to advance team success.

You are comparing a team that won two finals and then got shown up to a team that fell into finals and then lost a close encounter. Either way are you saying you would prefer a coach who minutes after losing a final pretty much states he does not believe in a large chunk of their team or the style that got them there?

 

3 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

the bulldogs were a side of undelivered potential this year. they scraped in and lost their first final. in 2018 we also had that “ potential” tag. but we also lost a lot of close games .. the two to Geelong come to mind . imo we absolutely should have been top 4 we then WON our first 2 finals before losing to a WC side we’d beaten 3 weeks earlier. So, i don’t agree we needed an overhaul after the prelim and i supported goody in that position. honestly i think we need to put this to bed..... rule changes and game plans evolved and in 2019 it was apparent we now had the wrong kind of list to adjust as easily as others,  it was hard to foresee in the off season what the changes would bring. as well we had a seemingly lost coach who couldn’t clearly steer the side thru the changes and injuries. 

Imo it’s what we didn’t do w our game plan and recruiting last off season that needs to come under the microscope... not post 2018. 

I see. So you are in the "do nothing" camp and our deficiencies will sort themselves out with some tweaks.

You should apply for a job at MFC. Goody just loves yes men.

Those posters who quoted me completely missed the point. I did not compare our side with the Bulldogs. I compared the response of the coach to team deficiencies.

Thank you for reminding me why l rarely post. Elevated passion, emotion and myopia are rarely the planks of forward looking successful people, businesses or clubs.

Our team direction has failed so far, in part, as a result of the blind belief that the coach has in his own strategy,  even after 6,6,6 was introduced.

Never-mind the capacity of the players to execute.

I saw our last flag as a teenager. I see nothing in the current off field leadership that looks even close to leading men into battle with a plan that suits their skills.

This has little to do with Ben Brown as he would have little to do with us being a successful team. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I see. So you are in the "do nothing" camp and our deficiencies will sort themselves out with some tweaks.

You should apply for a job at MFC. Goody just loves yes men.

Those posters who quoted me completely missed the point. I did not compare our side with the Bulldogs. I compared the response of the coach to team deficiencies.

Thank you for reminding me why l rarely post. Elevated passion, emotion and myopia are rarely the planks of forward looking successful people, businesses or clubs.

Our team direction has failed so far, in part, as a result of the blind belief that the coach has in his own strategy,  even after 6,6,6 was introduced.

Never-mind the capacity of the players to execute.

I saw our last flag as a teenager. I see nothing in the current off field leadership that looks even close to leading men into battle with a plan that suits their skills.

This has little to do with Ben Brown as he would have little to do with us being a successful team. 

 

 

 

What's your full FD and list management plan?

7 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I see. So you are in the "do nothing" camp and our deficiencies will sort themselves out with some tweaks.

You should apply for a job at MFC. Goody just loves yes men.

Those posters who quoted me completely missed the point. I did not compare our side with the Bulldogs. I compared the response of the coach to team deficiencies.

Thank you for reminding me why l rarely post. Elevated passion, emotion and myopia are rarely the planks of forward looking successful people, businesses or clubs.

Our team direction has failed so far, in part, as a result of the blind belief that the coach has in his own strategy,  even after 6,6,6 was introduced.

Never-mind the capacity of the players to execute.

I saw our last flag as a teenager. I see nothing in the current off field leadership that looks even close to leading men into battle with a plan that suits their skills.

This has little to do with Ben Brown as he would have little to do with us being a successful team. 

 

 

 

and thank you for rarely posting. 

6 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

If our tall fwd option is between Brown and TMac I prefer Tom.  They are the same age and by reports are earning/looking for similar $ packages.

Brown is accurate for goal but is one dimensional ie runs straight to mark the ball overhead.  He doesn't have positional flexibility and is poor defensively.  Tom is a better option on each of those 3 features and therefore fits our (confusing) game plan better. 

We know that Tom has overcome his injuries but don't know if Brown has.

We are relying on rumours and reports about Tom's weight gain, and being out of favour with Goodwin.  If they can be overcome, I believe Tom can be best 22 again.

2018 shows what he can do with a game plan that uses his strengths.  2019 he played injured in with an erratic game plan.  2020 he was overweight and out of favour.  At 28 he still has it in him.  Throw in a decent fwd coach and clearly define his role and who knows what might happen. 

And at the end of 2021 with regular senior games and with only one year left on his sizeable contract he will be a more tradeable.   Jackson will be a year further developed and better placed to replace TMac.  Brown gives us less list management flexibility.

I think we need another tall fwd to help Weideman while Jackson develops.  Much prefer it be Tom and keep him for at least one more year.

Have you watched Brown play? and I mean more than once and in games not against the Dees?

He is both excellent and highly underrated. One of the better tall forward in the competition.

Tom, at best, is the Chris Dawes to Travis Cloak. Interpret that how you will.

5 hours ago, Ungarieboy said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

our forwards haven't functioned for two years, it will not again without change. What that change looks like is the question. In fact, the 2018 blip aside, it hasn't functioned for a very long time. By function I mean conversion relative to opportunity.

Talk of building structure around Weids, Jackson, Brown, is reinforcing this when you consider Fritsch is our most likely to generate a scoring opportunity.  To many of our forwards like to get the easy over the back goal, not the far harder presenting to the ball carrier (leading up the ground).  This may also be a reflection on our midfielders who prefer to hit the safe and easier to hit lead into the pocket; rather than pinpointing a lead at pace towards the ball carrier  which generates seperation, but has less margin for error (kick).

 

There's always going to be changes, even without changing players.

1. Assistant coaches
They'll change the game plan, change the motivation, change the skill levels, change selection etc.

2. Key forwards:
a. Weid - he put up his most consistent run of performances this year and looked like a proper key forward
b. Jackson - we only got a taste of what he offers this year
c. Petty - at a minimum he's an option

3. Other forwards
a. Fritsch - his goal kicking will improve, just can't get any worse (well it is Melbourne so you never know)
b. Pickett - another who misses chances, but also who creates chances and can make great inside 50 kicks
c. The rest of the mid/small types

4. Game plan
The over the top is not a bad thing. You get a mark inside 20m it's very likely to be a goal. Plus you stretch the backline and create room for everyone else. Too often people bemoan our forwards leading deep, it's their job! Same for Fritsch leading to the pockets, he's a leading forward, he should often take the space available that sees him get a guaranteed mark inside 50. If every forward leads to 30m out directly infront the backline has a field day. 

Our mids certainly have to improve their kicking but even that's conflicting because some of them have to take the first option and get it in quick from stoppages and let the forwards fight with even numbers. It's footy, there's no perfect solutions. It's about balance, variety and players doing what they do well.
 

There’ll be plenty of competition for Brown. He’ll have no problems finding a new home.

This bloke kicked 60 odd goals 3 years running and he’ll be 28 next season. So what if he’s a lead into space forward. If that’s the case then change the game plan to kick it into the space that he leads into! (I know, I know. our inside 50 delivery has to improve as well). He would straighten us up, take the pressure off Weid (who’s a no 2 forward anyways) and allow Jackson to develop in his own time.

The only reason he’s on the market is that North are having some sort of collective brain spasm. Nobody knows what North are trying to achieve including North themselves I suspect.

North’s inside 50 delivery this year was reminiscent of us in 2019. Absolutely putrid. Wayne Carey would have struggled to get his hands on it. Brown’s carried an injury this year as well so his reduced output is easily explained.

We obviously need to do a thorough medical but if his fitness checks out we should try to bring him in.

7 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

If our tall fwd option is between Brown and TMac I prefer Tom.  They are the same age and by reports are earning/looking for similar $ packages.

Brown is accurate for goal but is one dimensional ie runs straight to mark the ball overhead.  He doesn't have positional flexibility and is poor defensively.  Tom is a better option on each of those 3 features and therefore fits our (confusing) game plan better. 

We know that Tom has overcome his injuries but don't know if Brown has.

We are relying on rumours and reports about Tom's weight gain, and being out of favour with Goodwin.  If they can be overcome, I believe Tom can be best 22 again.

2018 shows what he can do with a game plan that uses his strengths.  2019 he played injured in with an erratic game plan.  2020 he was overweight and out of favour.  At 28 he still has it in him.  Throw in a decent fwd coach and clearly define his role and who knows what might happen. 

And at the end of 2021 with regular senior games and with only one year left on his sizeable contract he will be a more tradeable.   Jackson will be a year further developed and better placed to replace TMac.  Brown gives us less list management flexibility.

I think we need another tall fwd to help Weideman while Jackson develops.  Much prefer it be Tom and keep him for at least one more year.

You couldn't possibly downplay Brown's strengths any more unfairly, suggesting he's nothing other than an accurate kick at goal.

One of our biggest problems is our inability to score goals when it goes inside 50. That's not all because we don't apply enough pressure. It's also because we don't take enough marks and miss too many shots. Brown helps us fix both. Not only that but he immediately attracts the opposition's best defender, giving Weideman the second defender. It also reduces reliance on Weideman as a target.

Brown also has a big tank and repeat leads all day.

Now, in saying all that, I'm not necessarily against us backing in TMac if we think we can get him back to 2018 levels. But in comparing TMac and Brown, let's at least be fair to Brown.

Sure Brown is known for his lead and mark but the guy is 200cm. He will be a good target.

Must admit I was a no on this at first but I am getting keen now. A proven goal kicker on our list is certainly a missing piece. 

5 hours ago, Hot as Hell said:

I am not savvy enough to post a link from today's Hun, but Bevo's response to last night's 3 point loss to the Saints is to announce big changes to their side before Round 1 2020.

Now that is how you attempt to fix a problem.

Contrast that response with Goodwin post 2018 Prelim Final. We are still in denial, defending an outdated game plan hoping like hell it can succeed again.

I agree with Ungarieboy. We need a fresh approach to a long stsnding problem.

That is what a coach is paid to do. Identify and attempt to fix shortfalls in order to advance team success.

Do you really think the game wasn't looked at at all?

We had played a great 2-3 months of footy, inc 4 "must win" games in a row. We went to Perth and it was clear we got smashed all over. Nothing worked, we had no winners. We were clearly fatigued, flat footed, and carrying a ton of injuries.

What did you want them to take out of the review?

Should they sat the players down and given them a spray? They already kmow they let themselves down.

Should they have dissected it play by play and pointed out the mistakes? The game was played so far off expectations that wouldnt have added value.

Should they have thrown everything that worked the last 12 weeks out the door because of the bad day?

 

 

We made changes. 9 players left the club (Vince, Pedersen, Bugg, King, McKenna, Filipovic, Johnstone, Kent, Hogan). We went and got a big KPD to fill a hole (May) and got a capable back up ruck (Preuss). We rolled the dice on a free winger (KK). 

What else did you want them to do?

35 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

You couldn't possibly downplay Brown's strengths any more unfairly, suggesting he's nothing other than an accurate kick at goal.

One of our biggest problems is our inability to score goals when it goes inside 50. That's not all because we don't apply enough pressure. It's also because we don't take enough marks and miss too many shots. Brown helps us fix both. Not only that but he immediately attracts the opposition's best defender, giving Weideman the second defender. It also reduces reliance on Weideman as a target.

Brown also has a big tank and repeat leads all day.

Now, in saying all that, I'm not necessarily against us backing in TMac if we think we can get him back to 2018 levels. But in comparing TMac and Brown, let's at least be fair to Brown.

Re the bolded parts.  My comments were based on a fit TMac and he gives us those.

As I said, TMac gives us more list flexibilty going forward than being locked into a 3+ year contract with Brown.

We can't afford both.  If we can't trade TMac (and it seems there are no takers) then we can't have Brown.

Edited October 4, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

10 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

If our tall fwd option is between Brown and TMac I prefer Tom.  They are the same age and by reports are earning/looking for similar $ packages.

Brown is accurate for goal but is one dimensional ie runs straight to mark the ball overhead.  He doesn't have positional flexibility and is poor defensively.  Tom is a better option on each of those 3 features and therefore fits our (confusing) game plan better. 

We know that Tom has overcome his injuries but don't know if Brown has.

We are relying on rumours and reports about Tom's weight gain, and being out of favour with Goodwin.  If they can be overcome, I believe Tom can be best 22 again.

2018 shows what he can do with a game plan that uses his strengths.  2019 he played injured in with an erratic game plan.  2020 he was overweight and out of favour.  At 28 he still has it in him.  Throw in a decent fwd coach and clearly define his role and who knows what might happen. 

And at the end of 2021 with regular senior games and with only one year left on his sizeable contract he will be a more tradeable.   Jackson will be a year further developed and better placed to replace TMac.  Brown gives us less list management flexibility.

I think we need another tall fwd to help Weideman while Jackson develops.  Much prefer it be Tom and keep him for at least one more year.

Hang on. What? How do we know Tom has overcome his injuries? He was clearly playing injured all year.

As for this idea that Tom is a better defensive player than Brown, I'd argue both are as poor as each other. Ever since Tom's played forward, he's rarely laid tackles. This bit seems a bit revisionist for me.

I've been thinking about what @Pollyanna said about us not needing another KPF. I'm not entirely in that boat yet, but I'm not sure how we play Brown and Weideman in the same side. I worry that we become too easy to rebound against.

Kinda feel Brown is soft. Would be handy, sure, but I kinda envisage him running around dropping marks and generally being average as he descends into our soft culture...... Do we need more softness?

21 hours ago, A F said:

Hang on. What? How do we know Tom has overcome his injuries? He was clearly playing injured all year.

As for this idea that Tom is a better defensive player than Brown, I'd argue both are as poor as each other. Ever since Tom's played forward, he's rarely laid tackles. This bit seems a bit revisionist for me.

I've been thinking about what @Pollyanna said about us not needing another KPF. I'm not entirely in that boat yet, but I'm not sure how we play Brown and Weideman in the same side. I worry that we become too easy to rebound against.

You think Weid is going to come good? I've been in the Weid camp a long while, arguing that he needs to be given his chance, but the last few games he was pi*#weak and I worry that he's just never going to be fully present and accountable. Having said that, he and Jackson did gel, so..... 

Edited October 5, 20204 yr by Grr-owl

Brown is more productive than any forward we've had for over a decade. 3 years running kicking 60+ goals. We haven't had a player deliver that since Neitz in 2006, and Browns did it 3 years running.

He's got a better goal average (2.21 goals per game) than any demon this century outside flash in the pan Jurrah (2.25 goals per game).

Those saying he's not good enough or saying no for reason X are absolutely kidding themselves. Ben Brown would be a coup for us, but I expect him to wind up at a more successful club like Pies or Hawks.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:34 AM, —coach— said:

Lloyd took forever too, would have loved him if he was at the Dees!

Dees jumpers can produce some genuine miracles (Gary Moorcroft anyone?) but this is a step too far. Nothing can save that guy.

1 hour ago, Grr-owl said:

You think Weid is going to come good? I've been in the Weid camp a long while, arguing that he needs to be given his chance, but the last few games he was pi*#weak and I worry that he's just never going to be fully present and accountable. Having said that, he and Jackson did gel, so..... 

I think Weideman tired. I thought the last stretch of his season was horrible, but the short turn arounds and the lack of KPP support have to be considered IMO.

I'm frustrated by his slow development and sometimes he is too easily pushed under or off the push still. I think he's on the right track though.

Adding Brown would take the pressure off Weideman and enable Jackson to roam. That is very enticing. 

On 10/4/2020 at 10:22 AM, Demonland said:

 

I totally agree with this.

If we only got one player this trade period I would go all out for Brown.