Hawks Blunder

[DeeZee 7,378]

The end result was three premierships in a row

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The biggest Hawthorn blunder is some of the high draft picks they wasted on the likes of Beau Dowler, Mitch Thorp and even Xavier Ellis.

 

[rjay 24,917]

40 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Kennedy and McGlynn for 39 (Grimley), 46 (Stratton) and 70 (promotion of Matt Suckling).

Grimley was a dud and Stratton is a decent player, but hardly worth one of the premier mids in the comp.

Regardless of who they took with the picks, on that trade it's obvious they just didn't rate him at all. 

'Nasher', I think it puts the trade in a different light.

Whilst Kennedy is a champ, they have a few in the midfield.

Stratton would be worth that trade to the Hawks, he's a very important player to them as could be seen when he was out with injury late in the season.

If you are back at school and picking teams with everyone lined up against the shelter shed, you would take Kennedy every day but...

Edited October 7, 2016 by rjay

[Dante 2,739]

5 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

Clubs constantly have to actively assess their list in terms of both talent and mix. In that context I don't think it's a blunder at all. He left for opportunity and the Hawks already had a stacked midfield including Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Sewell, Burgoyne plus a bunch of others rotating through including Rioli, Bateman, Shiels etc. It's almost the perfect balance of midfielders so it's not like Kennedy's departure left a gaping hole. Even in hindsight, it's hard to imagine the Hawks being any better over the journey if he had stayed.

They'd be better next year and probably this year as well.

 

[monoccular 17,424]

In my mind the biggest issue was the breaking of the Camelot fairytale by not holding on to a third generation player who turned out to be  the best of the three.  That said they haven't done too badly on the field. 

[Radar Detector 1,347]

5 hours ago, Dante said:

They'd be better next year and probably this year as well.

 

Ultimately, who cares? I dream of the day when we win 4 flags in 8 seasons and can lament one trade failure. I really don't understand the point of the thread...

[beelzebub 23,347]

Red, you had me at they won three flags

blunder....tree barking...wrong. ..

 

 

[Redleg 40,895]

12 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

Ultimately, who cares? I dream of the day when we win 4 flags in 8 seasons and can lament one trade failure. I really don't understand the point of the thread...

Clearly.  

It was about the trading of a boy from a club's most famous family, who is dumped and became a champion of the game at another club. The fact that his coach is regarded as the best in the league, showing that he didn't recognise the talent and ability of the player that he had for a few years. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Redleg

[Adzman 2,154]

Is it just me or do you wish it had been us that offered up those picks for Kennedy and mcglyn? 

Just good business from the swans. Those blokes would have made a big difference to our culture. They have been fantastic for the Swans.

[mo64 5,874]

42 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Clearly.  

It was about the trading of a boy from a club's most famous family, who is dumped and became a champion of the game at another club. The fact that his coach is regarded as the best in the league, showing that he didn't recognise the talent and ability of the player that he had for a few years. 

You do realise that it's the List Manager who makes the decisions on the length and value of contracts offered? In all likelihood it was Chris Pelchen who made the decision to low ball Kennedy with a contract offer, not Clarkson. And a player who has played 13 games in 3 years isn't going to command massive  compensation in a trade.

I'm sure the Hawks never got over the blunder of not keeping Gary Ablett Snr happy at the club, despite winning 5 flags during the length of Ablett's career at Geelong.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

A blunder, no doubt. And then Hawthorn won three premierships.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Hawthorn also let Garry Ablett go, then won four flags and played in six grand finals.

[Dante 2,739]

5 minutes ago, Tony Tea said:

Hawthorn also let Garry Ablett go, then won four flags and played in six grand finals.

In fairness to Red, the issue is not about how many Flags they won, it's about letting a great player, who was from the clubs Royal Family go, that is the issue.

i doubt that having him would have made them a worse side and if Clarkson couldn't get the best out of him that's not the players fault, he's certainly proven himself to be good enough.

 

[mo64 5,874]

5 minutes ago, Dante said:

In fairness to Red, the issue is not about how many Flags they won, it's about letting a great player, who was from the clubs Royal Family go, that is the issue.

i doubt that having him would have made them a worse side and if Clarkson couldn't get the best out of him that's not the players fault, he's certainly proven himself to be good enough.

 

The flags are the issue because they had superior players to Kennedy at the time he was traded. He only played 13 games in 3 years at the club, so he was hardly a prodigious talent when they traded him.

[Little Richard 6,262]

Well, I'm watching the Hawthorn win from this season again (perfect hangover cure). It's fantastic.

Josh Kennedy obviously wasn't playing.

[Redleg 40,895]

23 minutes ago, mo64 said:

The flags are the issue because they had superior players to Kennedy at the time he was traded. He only played 13 games in 3 years at the club, so he was hardly a prodigious talent when they traded him.

The flags are not the issue, the issue is that Clarkson did not recognize what a great player Josh could become and traded him. If he did, he wouldn't have. That is the issue. End of story.

I know because I started the thread and my point was that even a genius like Clarkson can make mistakes on player's ability.

Added to that he was the son and grandson of Hawks legends, so he clearly didn't realize how good he could become.

Lastly he was very good the first year at the Swans, finishing 3rd in the B & F and 2nd the next year, so it was a mistake. 

Below is the Hawks list of 2010, look at the mids and then acknowledge that it was a mistake, at the time.

UMBER	PLAYER	POSITION
1	Max Bailey	Ruckman
2	Jarryd Roughead	Half Forward, Half Back
3	Jordan Lewis	Midfield
4	Rick Ladson	Midfield, Backline
5	Sam Mitchell	Midfield
6	Josh Gibson	Defender
7	Michael Osborne	Forward
8	Xavier Ellis	Defender
9	Shaun Burgoyne	Midfield
10	Chance Bateman	Midfield
11	Clinton Young	Midfield
13	Brad Sewell	Midfield
14	Grant Birchall	Defender
15	Luke Hodge	Defender, Midfield
16	Beau Dowler	Defender, Forward
17	Beau Muston	Midfield
18	Brent Guerra	Midfield, Forward
19	Jarryd Morton	Midfield, Forward
20	Rhan Hooper	Forward
21	Shane Savage	Midfield
22	Travis Tuck	Midfield
23	Lance Franklin	Forward
25	Ryan Schoenmakers	Defender
26	Liam Shiels	Midfield
27	Stephen Gliham	Defender
29	Thomas Murphy	Defender
30	Campbell Brown	Defender
31	Matthew Suckling	Defender
33	Cyril Rioli	Forward
34	Brent Renouf	Ruckman
35	Sam Grimley	Ruckman
36	Jordan Lisle	Defender
37	Brendan Whitecross	Defender
38	Luke Lowden	Ruckman
39	Ben Stratton	Defender
40	Jordan Williams	Midfield
41	Tayor Duryea	Midfield
28	Garry Moss*	Midfield
32	Riley Milne*	Defender
42	Wayde Skipper*	Ruckman
43	Will Sierakowski*	Defender
44	Cameron Stokes*	Forward
45	Jarrod Kayler-Thomson*	Midfield
46	Michael Johnston*	Defender
47	Luke Breust*	Forward
48	Carl Peterson*	Forward
49	Trent Stubbs*	Forward, Midfield
50	Raymond Shim*	Midfield
COACH:	Alastair Clarkson

They had about 4-5 good mids at the time, we all know you need many more.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Redleg

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,819]

23 hours ago, Dante said:

They'd be better next year and probably this year as well.

 

True.  Those were my thoughts, as the Hawks midfield is very much starting to look old and bare of obvious replacements of quality, but if Kennedy had been retained by the Hawks and didn't get the exposure in the mid field that he did with the Swans, then he may never have developed into the player he has now - it's a catch 22.

I just hope there doesn't become a free agency window that may allow Kennedy to return cheaply to the Hawks at some point in the future, on the off chance he'd even remotely consider it.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

23 hours ago, Redleg said:

Clearly.  

It was about the trading of a boy from a club's most famous family, who is dumped and became a champion of the game at another club. The fact that his coach is regarded as the best in the league, showing that he didn't recognise the talent and ability of the player that he had for a few years. 

Everybody knows that every club makes mistakes. And it is much easier to make these 'mistakes' when you have a list stacked with talent and can't give enough opportunity to all the guns on your list.

Hawthorn weren't about to play Kennedy just because of his name and nor should they have. At that stage they rated others higher on exposed form. Having said that, he has become a great player and would walk into their starting midfield now.

Calling it a 'blunder' though is a bit of an over the top characterisation IMO and I doubt there would be many Hawks officials, coaches or supporters that lose too much sleep over it three flags later. I am much more concerned about our recruiting and trading mistakes because they lead us further away from ultimate success.

It just feels like sometimes we feel the need to pick at any minor fault in other clubs to make us feel better about ourselves and it can seem a bit petty and bitter. I hate the Hawks as much as the next guy but I don't see the point in focusing on something like this. Just celebrate Kennedy for the great success and wonderful player he has become and leave it at that.

[TRIGON 4,783]

Their ripping success in getting Lewis Hodge Mitchell and Rioli in the draft, plus the likes of Burgoyne set them up for a decade. Made them a destination club to build on that core. Plenty of duds along the way though too. So I don't buy-in to the mystique that their recent and current recruitments moves will automatically be successful. O'Rourke hasn't set the world on fire, Vickery is an idiot looking for a village and O'Meara is a high-risk gamble - if it doesn't come off the list starts looking mediocre very quickly.

[beelzebub 23,347]

2 minutes ago, TRIGON said:

 O'Rourke hasn't set the world on fire, Vickery is an idiot looking for a village and O'Meara is a high-risk gamble - 

comment of the day !! lol

[Redleg 40,895]

7 minutes ago, TRIGON said:

Their ripping success in getting Lewis Hodge Mitchell and Rioli in the draft, plus the likes of Burgoyne set them up for a decade. Made them a destination club to build on that core. Plenty of duds along the way though too. So I don't buy-in to the mystique that their recent and current recruitments moves will automatically be successful. O'Rourke hasn't set the world on fire, Vickery is an idiot looking for a village and O'Meara is a high-risk gamble - if it doesn't come off the list starts looking mediocre very quickly.

One can only hope.

[rjay 24,917]

20 minutes ago, TRIGON said:

Their ripping success in getting Lewis Hodge Mitchell and Rioli in the draft, plus the likes of Burgoyne set them up for a decade. Made them a destination club to build on that core. Plenty of duds along the way though too. So I don't buy-in to the mystique that their recent and current recruitments moves will automatically be successful. O'Rourke hasn't set the world on fire, Vickery is an idiot looking for a village and O'Meara is a high-risk gamble - if it doesn't come off the list starts looking mediocre very quickly.

The compromised draft along with the introduction of free agency also helped them enormously. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,750]

On 10/8/2016 at 10:40 AM, Tony Tea said:

Hawthorn also let Garry Ablett go, then won four flags and played in six grand finals.

Let's amp up the hyperbole by pointing out that letting Gary Ablett Sr go also cost them Gary Ablett Jr as a father-son selection. Stuffed up big time. 

[Dante 2,739]

17 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Let's amp up the hyperbole by pointing out that letting Gary Ablett Sr go also cost them Gary Ablett Jr as a father-son selection. Stuffed up big time. 

If they were done on the same basis I guess you could, but Ablett left/departed Hawthorn for reasons other than his ability to play football.

 

[TRIGON 4,783]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

The compromised draft along with the introduction of free agency also helped them enormously. 

Yes, the compromised drafts have played a big part too. Free agency has been a mixed bag for them.