17 hours ago, Chris said:

One thing has been puzzling me of late about the opinions on here of the player we need. There seems to be pretty much a consensus that we need a ruck forward to help out with Max when he needs a rest. That is all well and good but who of Hogan, Watts, and Weid do you leave out of the team because having four big men forward is one too many.

Yeah, it's an awkward one. I personally have real 'belief' in all three of those tall forwards, and I also think they all are/will be capable of being quite mobile and contributing around the ground. But it still to me looks awkward to add one extra big tall player to that mix. 

Positionally, I'd reckon Blicavs seems like the fit for what we would want backing up Gawn. But that's not likely to happen at all, let alone at a reasonable cost.

Once upon a time Stefan Martin was playing more time in defence than anywhere else, so it is possible to have a ruck-defender. Then again, that was probably also a major part of why he left!

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1 hour ago, binman said:

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Gee Mahoney said we are 'looking for a fwd/ruck? like many other clubs, and now everybody on here says we need one.

Agreed it would be nice to get another option but Watts and Pedersen can play that role, who know if Hulett keeps growing and developing he could be an option as well

But I have yet to see a decent option put forward, I have tried looking there is not much out there,

Some like Vickery, yes a change of clubs might do the trick but has always struck me as not being a team man during games and lazy in defence

10 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

 

Agreed it would be nice to get another option but Watts and Pedersen can play that role

Mahoney tacitly said this week that they do not want Watts to go in the ruck.

 

4 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Gee Mahoney said we are 'looking for a fwd/ruck? like many other clubs, and now everybody on here says we need one.

Agreed it would be nice to get another option but Watts and Pedersen can play that role, who know if Hulett keeps growing and developing he could be an option as well

But I have yet to see a decent option put forward, I have tried looking there is not much out there,

Some like Vickery, yes a change of clubs might do the trick but has always struck me as not being a team man during games and lazy in defence

Well we wouldn't be looking if we didn't need one? 

Pedersen's done the job before but he can't win hit outs, doesn't follow up all that well around the ground and fatigues easily. Watts is decent at it but he's wasted there given we need the ball in his hands around the ground. Hulett looks like a man child, I'm not sure he's going to have a growth spurt and at 194cm he'll have a hard time taking on 200cm back up rucks. 

Agreed Watts shouldn't be in the ruck, but he can do it.

200cm ruck/fwd are not the norm although there are some, Gawn or Spencer  need the occasional chop out and naybe taking the ruck up forward so you just need a guy who can compete and kick a goal now and again, doesn't have to be a star, just play a role, hence my suggestion on Hulett

20 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Agreed Watts shouldn't be in the ruck, but he can do it.

200cm ruck/fwd are not the norm although there are some, Gawn or Spencer  need the occasional chop out and naybe taking the ruck up forward so you just need a guy who can compete and kick a goal now and again, doesn't have to be a star, just play a role, hence my suggestion on Hulett

I'm more concerned about a pure ruckman as back up for Gawn. A player that allows Watts to remain forward would be great, but if we can fit Pedersen into the team to ruck and rotate forward, then I'm happy. He does a decent job.

Reality is, we're highly unlikely to pick up a fwd/ruck who's ahead of Watts, Hogan or Weed (who will be our big forwards next year), and we won't be playing 2 ruckmen every week. So what's the solution? Does Watts keep doing it while we work on maybe Weed to be the fwd/ruck option in a few years? With Piggy coming in for pick 26, I don't see us having the currency to get a fwd/ruck who is best 22, at least not one who will be ready next year.

 

8 minutes ago, stuie said:

Reality is, we're highly unlikely to pick up a fwd/ruck who's ahead of Watts, Hogan or Weed (who will be our big forwards next year), and we won't be playing 2 ruckmen every week. So what's the solution? Does Watts keep doing it while we work on maybe Weed to be the fwd/ruck option in a few years? With Piggy coming in for pick 26, I don't see us having the currency to get a fwd/ruck who is best 22, at least not one who will be ready next year.

 

weed is a min 1 year away from best 22. at best he might get a couple of tester games. no point in hurrying him if we can get a new ruck/fwd. on top of that maximus is unlikely to go through a whole season uninjured

We could get Nankervis for pick 44, but then our 1st pick in the draft would be 62

16 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

weed is a min 1 year away from best 22. at best he might get a couple of tester games. no point in hurrying him if we can get a new ruck/fwd. on top of that maximus is unlikely to go through a whole season uninjured

Weed will be played ahead of Pedersen next year. He was already ahead of him at the end of this year.

Spencer is there if Max gets injured. As much as some like to bag him, he's exactly what you need in a backup ruckman: Big unit, competes hard but knows his place and doesn't mind playing VFL all year if he has to. If we had a better backup ruckman they'd leave for more opportunity.

 

If Dunn doesn't leave and Max isn't playing, we have Spencer and Mitch King,  with, Pedersen and Dunn to give a chop out and play up forward. That is better than having Watts do the role.

We can still pick up another ruck/forward from a number of places, eg, draft, FA's, delisted players, etc.

Pretty sure we will add another during trade week or at the draft or rookie draft.

16 minutes ago, DemonLad5 said:

We could get Nankervis for pick 44, but then our 1st pick in the draft would be 62

I'm not so sure we would be able to get Nankervis for 44.

We really need to draft Darcy Cameron as a mature age player in the draft.  May need to bite the bullett and use our first pick to ensure we land him.

He's exactly what we need.

 

I agree, it's hard to see how another tall would work in a forward-line housing Weideman, Hogan and Watts.

But I think the importance of protecting, managing and prolonging the career of Max Gawn is too great. And trumps any worry of positional changes that may be necessary with the addition of another big man.

We absolutely must maximise potential of Max by keeping him fit and healthy, season upon season. Apart from unfortunate innocuous injuries, fatigue plays a big part in them too. And we saw how much of a difference it made to our side when Gawn was having an impact compared to when he wasn't. 

I believe, (as I'm sure others do) that he's the most important player we have when playing well. 

As others have also suggested, with bench time included, a rotation of ruck ---> forward -----> bench for two big men could work as long as roles are stuck to within the forward-line. It takes a lot of discipline and selflessness to make that work though. And in the past, a forward-line of Gawn and Hogan hasn't worked overly well with them both trying to outmark each other resulting in missed opportunities at shots on goal.

But of course that can be overcome with a change of mindset.

Whatever happens, it's clear that a bloke of Max's height and weight shouldn't be rucking on his own season upon season. 

He will simply breakdown. 

 

I think it is more along the lines of having at least 2 or even 3 to cover each position, club doesn't think Dawes is the answer anymore so are looking at replacing him, and the comment that his position will be looked at after trade period, if we are unsuccessful can see him being on 1yr contract if he wants it as cover

1 hour ago, stuie said:

Weed will be played ahead of Pedersen next year. He was already ahead of him at the end of this year.

Spencer is there if Max gets injured. As much as some like to bag him, he's exactly what you need in a backup ruckman: Big unit, competes hard but knows his place and doesn't mind playing VFL all year if he has to. If we had a better backup ruckman they'd leave for more opportunity.

 

Stuie your anti Pedersen stance is showing.

To suggest that the Weed was better than Pedersen in the two games he play is grossly incorrect.

The weed had a modest first game and was in the bottom four in his second game.

It will be at least 2018 before he is consistently better than Pedersen.

4 hours ago, Dante said:

Is that what he expects, or what he hopes for?

Maybe the FM's comments in the post below indicate that Melbourne have offered a 3rd round not a 2nd round, hence a bit more work to be done.

He was asked in the context of do you think pick 26 gets the deal done. And he pretty much said 22-24 is what they would have wanted but given melbournes position with their picks 26 is fair.

I tend to agree with you that if there is still something to work out it could be the fact the dees are offering a third and the dons want our 2nd.

Nevertheless i think it'll get done early for our pick 26.

3 minutes ago, old dee said:

Stuie your anti Pedersen stance is showing.

To suggest that the Weed was better than Pedersen in the two games he play is grossly incorrect.

The weed had a modest first game and was in the bottom four in his second game.

It will be at least 2018 before he is consistently better than Pedersen.

Where did I say he was better than him? I said he'll now be ahead of Pedersen in selection talks.

Nothing to do with any kind of "anti Pedersen stance". Weideman played the last 2 games of the year, and it would have been more than that barring injury. He's already ahead of Pedersen in the pecking order, not necessarily because he's going to do more every week stats-wise, but because that's the stage of his development now. Pedersen scraped through for another year, does that tell you the coaches think he's easily best 22? He's handy, but he's there for depth when we need him, not for a start in the forward line.

I don't believe in stats ratings, but if you want to bring them up then you should note Pedersen was rated last in the last game he played for the year.

 

Perhaps the forward/ruck doesn't have to be a forward, i know this might sound a bit silly, but could Frost play as a third floating tall defender and rotate through the ruck, given we play a zone rather than one on one.

if Frost goes into the ruck, Watts goes back behind the ball and Gawn slots into the forward line 

I'd be really keen to see Hogan, Weid and Watts have some consistent time up forward together. 

15 minutes ago, stuie said:

Where did I say he was better than him? I said he'll now be ahead of Pedersen in selection talks.

Nothing to do with any kind of "anti Pedersen stance". Weideman played the last 2 games of the year, and it would have been more than that barring injury. He's already ahead of Pedersen in the pecking order, not necessarily because he's going to do more every week stats-wise, but because that's the stage of his development now. Pedersen scraped through for another year, does that tell you the coaches think he's easily best 22? He's handy, but he's there for depth when we need him, not for a start in the forward line.

I don't believe in stats ratings, but if you want to bring them up then you should note Pedersen was rated last in the last game he played for the year.

 

Playing the Weid on a wet day against Carlton was a massive error. Then round 23 was a dead rubber so he stayed in. Weid's fitness gains in the off season will determine the pecking order in to round 1 I think. Not that Pedersen is great in that regard but he can lay the odd tackle, Weid was pretty much a witches hat once the other team got the ball. Given Hogan and Watts has an aversion to tackling as well it's a major concern.

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Playing the Weid on a wet day against Carlton was a massive error. Then round 23 was a dead rubber so he stayed in. Weid's fitness gains in the off season will determine the pecking order in to round 1 I think. Not that Pedersen is great in that regard but he can lay the odd tackle, Weid was pretty much a witches hat once the other team got the ball. Given Hogan and Watts has an aversion to tackling as well it's a major concern.

Yep, like Pedersen's endeavor, but just going by late this year I think Weed will be selected ahead of him because the coaches have decided it's time. It doesn't mean he's guaranteed a game every week, but when we line up in round 1 I would guess Weed will be in and Pedo won't. Totally agree that our main big forwards need to lift their tackling pressure though.

 

29 minutes ago, old dee said:

Stuie your anti Pedersen stance is showing.

To suggest that the Weed was better than Pedersen in the two games he play is grossly incorrect.

The weed had a modest first game and was in the bottom four in his second game.

It will be at least 2018 before he is consistently better than Pedersen.

Since the Roos era began there is only one player that I believe that the club has "invested" games into with a view to the future and that is O'Mac. Not usually a fan of this approach but it looks like this will pay dividends with O'Mac. I think they may take the same approach with the Weed.  

7 minutes ago, Abe said:

Perhaps the forward/ruck doesn't have to be a forward, i know this might sound a bit silly, but could Frost play as a third floating tall defender and rotate through the ruck, given we play a zone rather than one on one.

if Frost goes into the ruck, Watts goes back behind the ball and Gawn slots into the forward line 

I'd be really keen to see Hogan, Weid and Watts have some consistent time up forward together. 

The problems I see with this are the whole "resting forward" is a bit of a myth these days I think. Players need do just as much in the forward line as anywhere else, it's not really a "rest", so Gawn would need to go to the bench. Then the other problem is we have our best set shot at goal and goal assist player down the other end of the ground. I do think Frost could be a good option as the backup ruck as, similar to Watts, he can rove his own work and use his speed, I'm just not sold on the whole Gawn forward/Watts back bit.