Major Shortcomings still unresolved

[Wrecker45 3,378]

First thing Goodwin needs to do as senior coach is say to the AFL if you are going to fixture us home games at Etihad you need to let us train on it the week we have a home game there. 

[stuie 7,374]

Just did the ladder predictor for the rest of the season... Now expecting a finish somewhere between 12th - 14th (depending on percentage).

That's not ok.

 

[jnrmac 20,094]

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

My problem though is that IS where the improvement has come from. It's come from the kids, from the extra talent we've added in, not from Roos turning around the mindset of the group and coaching us to be better. We've improved from the talent we've added, not (enough) from the coaching.

 

Good point. But you'll be howled down by those arguing that older players are damaged goods or psychologically scarred from playing under under Neeld and Bailey

 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

I've done the whole changes/fresh legs thing about yesterday's game to death in other threads, so I won't start it all again.

All I'll say is we would have been far better off playing less talented players who had fresh legs and the hunger to compete thean players who weren't fit and players who were too tired to execute properly.

 

Fair enough I will have a read in the other thread...But I think we will have to agree to disagree

I think we will gain more from the experience given to the younger blokes long term, but time will tell

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Good point. But you'll be howled down by those arguing that older players are damaged goods or psychologically scarred from playing under under Neeld and Bailey

Well, if Roos can't fix that in 3 years, then we should just trade every single one of them.

 

[Chris 2,892]

1 hour ago, Older demon said:

The major shortcoming is that this year 3 sometimes 4 first year players are playing Hunt, Petracca, Wagner and Oscar and Harmes may as well be. What has happened to the players developed in the 2 previous years? Talk about 1 step forward 2 steps back in some instances. OK year 1 Roos had a very ordinary list, in year 2 some improvements but where are those players this year? There has been yet again an influx of rookies.

We still lack key position players up the middle i.e. CHB & CHF who can straighten up and maintain that corridor football we would like to play. mentioned earlier is spread and movement up the flanks, a good point, but to do so you need good ball handling and kicking skills. The teams that make this work hit targets and don't fumble. The current backline do not have a lot of good kicks.

Missing in action this year for a variety of reasons when we really needed them to step up have been Salem, Dawes, Lumumba, Dunn, Garland, Pederson and to a lesser extent Kennedy-Harris. Compare with the Saints. Their core of Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster, Ermitage and Steven shows just where our deficiencies are and that is in our senior group. We have nowhere near the class in our senior group they have.

It is almost like we have gone back to square 1 with a rebuild in year 3.

Roos himself has admitted that in the 3 years of his tenure the team is getting younger not older and we still have no idea who our best 22 is and what the future holds for the likes of Dawes, Lumumba and co.

We are a long way of the pace atm

Players bought in in Roos' first 2 years and where they are:

2013:

- Cross - Is now the runner after a good couple of years. Still teaching the kids.

- Riley - delisted

- Mitchie - Playing VFL. Who knows if he will make it. 

- Vince - Playing AFL at a high standard. 

- Tyson - Playing AFL to a good standard after a poor 2nd year with us (injury didn't help)

- Salem - Sick but is a very good user of the ball and should make a good wing/HFF int eh years to come

- JKH - Struggling with injury. Who knows if he makes it, I think depth at best

- Hunt - Now playing some very good footy and showing signs of a promising future. 

- Harmes - Has the potential, is getting regular AFL games, needs to work on his consistency.

- Max King - Knee in pieces. Who knows.

- Alexis Georgiou - Played one year, played OK, was never going to make it long term, was delisted. 

- Jetta (put back to Rookie list), best thing to ever happen to Nev, has been a different player since, and a very good one at that.

2014:

- Newton - Playing VFL - Depth at best

- Garlett - Playing AFL and is very good when he is on. Seems to have fallen into a very inconsistent patch of late. 

- Lumumba - Could provide leadership and run off half back but is struggling with injuries. How many years he has left is the big question

- Frost - Has shown glimpses of being a more than serviceable back man. His height and speed were sorely missed on the weekend. 

- Petracca - Missed year one with a knee and has shown glimpses this year of what is hopefully to come. Hasn't burst onto the scene as many thought he would but the talent is there.

- Brayshaw - Had a great first year but was run into the ground. Has struggles with injury this year and from the sound of Roos on the weekend he has struggled with listening to what is required and implementing it, but he has seemed to have worked it out now. Should have a good career as a very good player. 

 - ANB - Playing VFL but must be banging down the door for an AFL call up. Who knows if he makes it or not.

- Stretch - Has shown he has what it takes at AFL level. I don't think he will be a star but he should be a good role player in future. 

- O Mac - Has been getting a game in the AFL and has done reasonably well considering where he is at on the development timeline. The fact he is playing ahead of seasoned veterans either says a lot about Oscar or more about those veterans. He has the talent to make it, he just needs time.

- AVB - Had a good first year but has struggled this year due to injury and form. Hopefully just second year blues.

- M White - Has played 3 games, won 2 of them and played well and then had an off day. People on here have called that he isn't good enough and should be delisted. He has played 3 games people, and done well in 2 of them!

 

I have put in bold the players who will make it and are either playing in best 22 or aren't due to injury. That is 14 of our best 22 who have come in in Roos' first 2 years, you asked where those players were, there is your answer, they are right in front of you. Even better is there are only 9 players bought in over this time who aren't best 22 at the minute and 1 has retired and 2 have already been judged and have been delisted, leaving 6 either on the long term injured list or trying their guts out int eh VFL, and showing some good form there too.

[fr_ap 2,488]

While im not happy with the win tally and a few of the losses in particular, suggest a deep breath and some time is needed from all.

We are fielding the youngest team in the afl every week, and more often than not taking it up to some good teams. This sport is too tough, the season too long and the spotlight too intense for kids to consistently perform at a level expected of a 100 to 200 game player. 

You might say otherwise - look at the bulldogs for example - but there are always exceptions. They drafted superbly and have built a great mix. They click with the coach and also have had quite a favourable draw that allowed them early wins and confidence to build, regardless of how hard it gets for them in the back half of the draw. 

As long as we keep fielding the most inexperienced team in the league, wins are going to be difficult to get. At some point the list needs to stabilise and a core is carried through until they are all 25 with 140 games, which is a real challenge in the age of free agency and will ultimately define how successful we can be (of course, these players need the talent but i believe we have it)

There were times during the year when all of us on here were very excited and finals were discussed, but a bad performance sees people clutching for the life jacket. 

Perspective!

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

23 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Good point. But you'll be howled down by those arguing that older players are damaged goods or psychologically scarred from playing under under Neeld and Bailey

 

The older players are just bog ordinary no matter who coaches them

not one ounce of leadership between any of them when a finals spot is still alive

absolutely Pi.ss Poor

Edited July 18, 2016 by Sir Why You Little

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Some of the posts are over reactions, but there is no disputing the main point. We lack leg speed and we can't defend against fast spreading teams.

[Akum 2,660]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

If you compare our side in 2013 and how we played to the 2016 side and how we play then it's clear we have improved.  If you can't see it then you are blind.

Our culture, training habits, ability to teach and educate the players... it's night and day to what it has been.  We have some very good players coming through and the future is bright.

Obviously, there are some things that still need to be worked on.  Our ability to have a Plan B, play at Etihad and learn to win games that we SHOULD is all part of that.  We are better at beating those teams below us (Essendon aside) and our gameplan, mostly, works against all sides.

If we had a time machine that took us back a few years to see what we were like then, we would all be down on our hands and knees kissing the feet of Paul Roos and Peter Jackson.  As the players get more games into them we should see them eradicate some of those things mentioned above.

Yep, totally agree. Roos & Jackson have been absolutely huge for this club. Because they've already done the massive changes needed, now all we need are the right sort of intelligent tweaks. We don't need a whole Plan B so much as a contingency plan - "if this happens, we try x, y or z". We need to plan for where we're most vulnerable.

But it's looking to me increasingly like we don't currently have those skills on our coaching panel, so we may need to buy them in from God knows where when Roos finishes.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

2 minutes ago, Akum said:

Yep, totally agree. Roos & Jackson have been absolutely huge for this club. Because they've already done the massive changes needed, now all we need are the right sort of intelligent tweaks. We don't need a whole Plan B so much as a contingency plan - "if this happens, we try x, y or z". We need to plan for where we're most vulnerable.

But it's looking to me increasingly like we don't currently have those skills on our coaching panel, so we may need to buy them in from God knows where when Roos finishes.

That's what worries me

Roosy walks in a few weeks and we are still so far off it. 

Yes some players have shone out this year, but others have regressed...

[Chris 2,892]

3 minutes ago, Akum said:

Yep, totally agree. Roos & Jackson have been absolutely huge for this club. Because they've already done the massive changes needed, now all we need are the right sort of intelligent tweaks. We don't need a whole Plan B so much as a contingency plan - "if this happens, we try x, y or z". We need to plan for where we're most vulnerable.

But it's looking to me increasingly like we don't currently have those skills on our coaching panel, so we may need to buy them in from God knows where when Roos finishes.

I think it is more a case of we don't have the development into the players as yet to go to a contingency consistently. I think the coaches are trying to bed down the way we want to play and the tweaks, such as those contingencies, will come with time. 

[Akum 2,660]

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

I think it is more a case of we don't have the development into the players as yet to go to a contingency consistently. I think the coaches are trying to bed down the way we want to play and the tweaks, such as those contingencies, will come with time. 

You may be right; I hope so. Like I say, if in the rest of the season we get either a win against a good side, or a win against an ordinary side that shuts us do0wn (and Carlton will, make no mistake), then I'd feel a lot more confident about us being able to work out the contingency issues for next year. One way or the other, it's what we need to make the next step.

From my Western Bulldogs contacts, I thought Craig Jennings might be the guy, but now I'm not so sure.

[Damo 3,357]

Russian Scientists have transmuted elements in to different  elements.

http://www.lifecoachcode.com/2016/07/10/russian-scientists-produce-technology-transmute-element/

Wonder if they can do anything with spuds.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

That's what worries me

Roosy walks in a few weeks and we are still so far off it. 

Yes some players have shone out this year, but others have regressed...

If we were a bottom four side I'd agree with that, but we're not - we are off the pace, but not so far off it.  

The weekend was disappointing and it snuffed out any chance of finals (even though, this year, we're not a finals calibre side), but we can't let a loss on the weekend allow us to be blind to the improvements we have made over the last few years.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

If we were a bottom four side I'd agree with that, but we're not - we are off the pace, but not so far off it.  

The weekend was disappointing and it snuffed out any chance of finals (even though, this year, we're not a finals calibre side), but we can't let a loss on the weekend allow us to be blind to the improvements we have made over the last few years.

We are still a long way off taking that next leap. Bailey almost did it in 2010 & then it all fell in a heap

Roos has got us from Useless to Mediocre (A mighty Job) but Goodwin has a massive job ahead of him if he cannot trust the leaders of the team. 

I have said it all year. We need to import leadership, until we do we are treading dirty water, that's all

[monoccular 17,431]

3 hours ago, Demon Jack said:

Roos has done a fantastic job with this football club. He's changed a club who would start Daniel Nicholson and Jordie Mckenzie in the centre square with the likes of Brayshaw and Vince. Unfortunately, I can't help but feel that there's something clearly lacking on game day. As previously alluded to, Roos lacks a plan B or a 'break glass in case of emergency' button in his coaches box that he can use to turn the tide of the game. At times, I feel like the players are trying to do something to stem the flow themselves but are unsure on how to do it as they have done been properly directed.

Every (well almost) time we have had a good start this year the opposition has just run around us and leVe us flat footed.   We are too predictable and our defense is a sieve.  I recall Roos' year 1 project was a tight defence ..... now ???  !!

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

From useless to Mediocre is where The Club is at. People on here have said "Oh the Players weren't "on" yesterday..."

EXCUSE ME. A spot in the 8 was still available yesterday. 

When does this list get it?

After 3 years of Roosy The MFC soft underbelly still exists deep beneath the floor boards

Our leaders were pathetic at doing what they are paid to do. 

This year has been a HUGE Fail

Who cares if we beat Carlscum or GC $un$

dead rubbers

We remain extraordinarily vulnerable to a bit of pressure, and in that respect nothing has changed.  Sure we have more talented players to choose from, but the bottom line is that we fold far too easily.  

Roos did well with a great list at Sideney.....has he shown that he can bring an ordinary list to the top?  Unproven in my view.

I just hope Goodwin can get far more positive output very quickly in 2017 or the optimism will quickly wane and the abyss will open again.......possibly terminally.  It is just so hard to maintain interest after all these years. 

[Akum 2,660]

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The older players are just bog ordinary no matter who coaches them

not one ounce of leadership between any of them when a finals spot is still alive

absolutely Pi.ss Poor

I see what you mean, and there's been a massive turnover of our "older" players, which will probably be completed this year.

But we're going to have to get used to the idea that our "older" players are now a different group to what they were. Our "older" players in yesterday's game were Vince & Jones, and then Garlett, Watts & Jetta, who are all best 22 (and Grimes & Matt Jones, who aren't). After that, we get down amongst Gawn & Viney & T-Mac.

We have only maybe half a dozen best-22 who are older than Gawn. That's how far our "older" players have been turned over.

[Akum 2,660]

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The older players are just bog ordinary no matter who coaches them

not one ounce of leadership between any of them when a finals spot is still alive

absolutely Pi.ss Poor

I see what you mean, and there's been a massive turnover of our "older" players, which will probably be completed this year.

But we're going to have to get used to the idea that our "older" players are now a different group to what they were. Our "older" players in yesterday's game were Vince & Jones, and then Garlett, Watts & Jetta, who are all best 22 (and Grimes & Matt Jones, who aren't). After that, we get down amongst Gawn & Viney & T-Mac.

We have only maybe half a dozen best-22 who are older than Gawn. That's how far our "older" players have been turned over.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

3 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Every (well almost) time we have had a good start this year the opposition has just run around us and leVe us flat footed.   We are too predictable and our defense is a sieve.  I recall Roos' year 1 project was a tight defence ..... now ???  !!

We remain extraordinarily vulnerable to a bit of pressure, and in that respect nothing has changed.  Sure we have more talented players to choose from, but the bottom line is that we fold far too easily.  

Roos did well with a great list at Sideney.....has he shown that he can bring an ordinary list to the top?  Unproven in my view.

I just hope Goodwin can get far more positive output very quickly in 2017 or the optimism will quickly wane and the abyss will open again.......possibly terminally.  It is just so hard to maintain interest after all these years. 

This is why i disagree with the NT games now. 

We need every advantage we can get. To get the team winning as much as it possibly can. Generate passion and interest. 

Sell a couple of games when we are strong enough to handle them. 

I think PJ has got this one arse about...

[monoccular 17,431]

9 minutes ago, Akum said:

I see what you mean, and there's been a massive turnover of our "older" players, which will probably be completed this year.

But we're going to have to get used to the idea that our "older" players are now a different group to what they were. Our "older" players in yesterday's game were Vince & Jones, and then Garlett, Watts & Jetta, who are all best 22 (and Grimes & Matt Jones, who aren't). After that, we get down amongst Gawn & Viney & T-Mac.

We have only maybe half a dozen best-22 who are older than Gawn. That's how far our "older" players have been turned over.

I am so glad that you did not mention H and Dawes as senior leaders - some do - because they either ca not get on the field or underperform where they are needed.  

[Age 485]

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

This is why i disagree with the NT games now. 

We need every advantage we can get. To get the team winning as much as it possibly can. Generate passion and interest. 

Sell a couple of games when we are strong enough to handle them. 

I think PJ has got this one arse about...

I don't think he really has a choice. 

I know we need the advantage but we need the money more. I know people will say that the AFL will bail us out when we need the funds etc but the AFL won't just give us more money to spend on our football department - this is where we need the NT money. If you don't spend money on the footy department you may as well not be playing at all nowadays. 

If we got better membership or attendances against interstate teams at the G we wouldn't need to do this at all but we simply don't make enough from this. This year we had the choice to play St Kilda at the G and an interstate team at Etihad but we had to take the victorian club at Etihad  because we couldn't take another 9,000 attendance like GWS last year. 

[Jaded No More 68,944]

Our best has gotten a lot better.

Our worst is still terrible.

We play in worst mode as often as we play in best mode.

We absolutely lack outside polish and run, yet we keep drafting inside mids (e.g.- Oliver). We absolutely need to find some jets who can use the footy, and give us more of that outside run. That is why Hunt has been so good for us this year.

Having said all that, yesterday I watched Reiwoldt take a mark on the wing against McDonald. 35 seconds later he took an uncontested mark in the square and kicked a goal. He ran, at age 34 (?) harder, faster and with more intent that his opponent who is 10 years his junior.
When we are on we don't look slow. When our midfield is on top in the clearances our forwardline is exceptionally potent. When we are allowed the quick switch, we look as good as any team out there. It's when the pressure is on, that we turn to jelly, and given we lack experience, polish and solid leadership, we don't know how to cope under physical or mental pressure.

 

P.S.- I hope everyone sooking it up about the NT deal are a full 17 game member who attend every home game, otherwise, you have no right to complain.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Jaded

[TRIGON 4,783]

15 minutes ago, Age said:

I don't think he really has a choice. 

I know we need the advantage but we need the money more. I know people will say that the AFL will bail us out when we need the funds etc but the AFL won't just give us more money to spend on our football department - this is where we need the NT money. If you don't spend money on the footy department you may as well not be playing at all nowadays. 

If we got better membership or attendances against interstate teams at the G we wouldn't need to do this at all but we simply don't make enough from this. This year we had the choice to play St Kilda at the G and an interstate team at Etihad but we had to take the victorian club at Etihad  because we couldn't take another 9,000 attendance like GWS last year. 

Don't mind the Alice Springs game, not a fan of the Darwin game at all; however needs must when the devil vomits on your doorstep.

Am very grateful that the "G" is our home ground: the Doggies say they make more money on their one FNQ game than all their Etihad games put together. Or, putting it another way:

Cairns FNQ... A OK

Etihad NQR...Not even F@$*ing close

Edited July 18, 2016 by TRIGON

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

13 minutes ago, Age said:

I don't think he really has a choice. 

I know we need the advantage but we need the money more. I know people will say that the AFL will bail us out when we need the funds etc but the AFL won't just give us more money to spend on our football department - this is where we need the NT money. If you don't spend money on the footy department you may as well not be playing at all nowadays. 

If we got better membership or attendances against interstate teams at the G we wouldn't need to do this at all but we simply don't make enough from this. This year we had the choice to play St Kilda at the G and an interstate team at Etihad but we had to take the victorian club at Etihad  because we couldn't take another 9,000 attendance like GWS last year. 

Real money will generate with wins. 

Cash grabs won't help us in 5 years if nobody tirns up and all our good players have been lured away. 

Fix up your own backyard. 

Now PJ may have his hands tied, which says to me the AFL do not give a shite what happens to us...