Is Roos our best coach since Norm Smith?

[praha 10,279]

20 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Ridiculous question. Clarkson, Longmire, C. Scott, B. Scott, Beveridge, Simpson, A. Richardson, Lyon have all outcoached Roos over the past 3 years, so take your pick.

Coaching is not merely about win-loss record. If it was, Malthouse, Sheedy, Eade, Williams would still all have a job. 

The Scott brothers are bordering on unproven because neither have even attempted a rebuild. Longmire inherited Roos' squad and benefited from that. Simpson is overrated. Beveridge again benefited from spectacular drafting and development before him.

Roos had none of this. Literally. He came to a club that was arguably the worst list of the past 50 years. How he has turned it over and made it competitive is amazing. His coaching style has at times been at odds with the club P Jackson has wanted to build, and it's clear that Goodwin is driving a lot of it now, but it's working and improving a lot on the pieces he has added.

Jetta, Pederson, Hunt, Wagner, Watts, Gawn, M Jones, the way these guys have improved is amazing..

I'm not a massive fan of the Roos "style" of gameplan, but his people skills seem perfectly balanced next to development. He has built-in the perfect team for Goodwin, and started building it before he even knew Goodwin would be involved.

Edited July 15, 2016 by praha

[Undeeterred 2,864]

13 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But were they the people to Revive a club that was Dead at the end of 2013?

who else would have got the ship upright and stopped the bleeding. 

That is where we are right now. If the players believe we are still a chance to play September '16

Clarkson did it at Hawthorn. Beveridge did it. They definitely have runs on the board over anything Roos has done as a coach.

What he HAS done, which is unarguable, is draw tons of heat from the media, deflecting it from other parts of the club (including the players).

I don't believe for a second that all the guff about 'woops we made a mistake again this week at selection' and the like is anything but drawing attention away from the players, and giving them time to develop without that scrutiny, because the media don't question Roos when he puts that stuff out there.

[Undeeterred 2,864]

1 minute ago, praha said:

Coaching is not merely about win-loss record. If it was, Malthouse, Sheedy, Eade, Williams would still all have a job. 

The Scott brothers are bordering on unproven because neither have even attempted a rebuild. Longmire inherited Roos' squad and benefited from that. Simpson is overrated. Beveridge again benefited from spectacular drafting and development before him.

Roos had none of this. Literally. He came to a club that was arguably the worst list of the past 50 years. How he has turned it over and made it competitive is amazing. His coaching style has at times been at odds with the club P Jackson has wanted to build, and it's clear that Goodwin is driving a lot of it now, but it's working and improving a lot on the pieces he has added.

Jetta, Pederson, Hunt, Wagner, Watts, Gawn, M Jones, the way these guys have improved is amazing..

Agreed, but I reckon it's more of a team effort than is generally recognised. It doesn't all come back to Roos. He has a sensational support team in place, now. Remember the heady days where Brian Royal was the midfield coach?

Roos definitely does provide the gravitas to allow all that to happen, though.

[Sir Why You Little 34,470]

2 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Clarkson did it at Hawthorn. Beveridge did it. They definitely have runs on the board over anything Roos has done as a coach.

What he HAS done, which is unarguable, is draw tons of heat from the media, deflecting it from other parts of the club (including the players).

I don't believe for a second that all the guff about 'woops we made a mistake again this week at selection' and the like is anything but drawing attention away from the players, and giving them time to develop without that scrutiny, because the media don't question Roos when he puts that stuff out there.

I still say Roosy was the man to do the job that had to be done post 2013...

[Undeeterred 2,864]

Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

I still say Roosy was the man to do the job that had to be done post 2013...

Sure. And I still say that as a coach, particularly on match day, he's no better than average to good, and certainly not our best ever.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

The Daniher years will always mean more to me than the Roos years. We needed Roos badly but in return he hasn't always seemed overly attached to us because his tenure was outlined from the start. Just depends how our current list turns out, I may think more fondly if so

[Sir Why You Little 34,470]

Just now, Undeeterred said:

Sure. And I still say that as a coach, particularly on match day, he's no better than average to good, and certainly not our best ever.

Maybe. I think the players have let him down on match day on quite a few occasions. 

He gives each player specific instructions to do a job....

[praha 10,279]

16 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Sure. And I still say that as a coach, particularly on match day, he's no better than average to good, and certainly not our best ever.

He's not our best ever, but, like Neeld, he recognised a damning rift between the club and the rest of the league. We don't know how other coaches would have delt with it, but don't underestimate just how bad the list and club more broadly was when Roos arrived. Some coaches would have made bandaid moves, others may have just stuck with the current crew. We could have ended up like Richmond where we topped up, finished mid table, made finals and then dropped again. Roos was literally given the flexibility to build from the ground up. Clarkson didn't make the finals until his third season and he had a much better squad in 2005 than Roos did in 2014. We are on the edge of finals and should [censored] it in in 2017. Arguably, Clarkson would have taken just as long to take a team to finals that had a guy like D Terlich finish high in the B&F in the year before he arrived.

Edited July 15, 2016 by praha

[Undeeterred 2,864]

10 minutes ago, praha said:

He's not our best ever, but, like Neeld, he recognised a damning rift between the club and the rest of the league. We don't know how other coaches would have delt with it, but don't underestimate just how bad the list and club more broadly was when Roos arrived. Some coaches would have made bandaid moves, others may have just stuck with the current crew. We could have ended up like Richmond where we topped up, finished mid table, made finals and then dropped again. Roos was literally given the flexibility to build from the ground up. Clarkson didn't make the finals until his third season and he had a much better squad in 2005 than Roos did in 2014. We are on the edge of finals and should [censored] it in in 2017. Arguably, Clarkson would have taken just as long to take a team to finals that had a guy like D Terlich finish high in the B&F in the year before he arrived.

Don't worry mate, I don't. I've been sitting through the last 10 years as well.

My point is that he was given that flexibility by the support structures that, let's face it, the AFL started by bringing in PJ, and PJ then implemented.

My personal view is that he's not a particularly amazing coach. BUT, I don't dispute he's been a fantastic person to come in, say 'everyone just chill the F out, we'll sort out this mess', then get on with driving a team of coaches, recruiters and administrators to get it done.

You're also right that Clarkson might have taken as long to fix the complete shambles we were. But I reckon Clarkson, for example, might have squeezed out a couple more wins along the way, because he's a better coach.

Edit: To be fair, it's also worth noting that Roos was probably the only available person in the football world who has the swingers big enough to stare down the football world while this resurrection has been going on, and keep the wolves from the door while it gathered pace.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Undeeterred

[Sir Why You Little 34,470]

15 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Don't worry mate, I don't. I've been sitting through the last 10 years as well.

My point is that he was given that flexibility by the support structures that, let's face it, the AFL started by bringing in PJ, and PJ then implemented.

My personal view is that he's not a particularly amazing coach. BUT, I don't dispute he's been a fantastic person to come in, say 'everyone just chill the F out, we'll sort out this mess', then get on with driving a team of coaches, recruiters and administrators to get it done.

You're also right that Clarkson might have taken as long to fix the complete shambles we were. But I reckon Clarkson, for example, might have squeezed out a couple more wins along the way, because he's a better coach.

Edit: To be fair, it's also worth noting that Roos was probably the only available person in the football world who has the swingers big enough to stare down the football world while this resurrection has been going on, and keep the wolves from the door while it gathered pace.

Your last paragraph says it all

Roos stood tall whilst the garbage was removed. 

Round 2 this year. Can you imagine how Fed off Roosy wod have been away from the Cameras?

The show went on. Beat the Aints and we are still an outside chance for this year

Edited July 15, 2016 by Sir Why You Little

[Cranky Franky 1,486]

Coaches are only s good as the cattle they have.  The more pertinent question is which recruiting team has done the best job since Jimmy Cardwell.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, mo64 said:

It's premature to be talking about culture and belief. Beveridge instilled belief into the Dogs from day 1. Belief equates to unexpected success. Haven't seen any evidence of that under Roos.

Beveridge had also walked into a list that had had all the spade work done by Brendan McCartney. Not to take anything away from Bevo as he was the kind of coach they needed to make the transition from developing team to finals team but the young Dogs had definitely learnt the basics under Macca.
Roos walked into a smoking crater. Culturally, we were regarded as the biggest clown car organization in the AFL. We would hear every few months (either through the media or through the grapevine) of many of our players after 6 o'clock antics. Plus the list was as close to VFL standard as I've ever seen. You can't tell me that's the case now.

[TRIGON 4,718]

Have been impressed by what the current recruiting team has done thus far. 

As far as the thread poll goes, I would describe Roos as a wonderful 'football manager'.

Edited July 15, 2016 by TRIGON

[Deestar9 1,402]

To put it quite simply he did it at Sydney & got a flag & that team still hasn't dropped out of the 8 & he has set us up the same way ....I will be eternally grateful over the future years when we will probably realise exactly what he has achieved. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

3 hours ago, Deestar9 said:

To put it quite simply he did it at Sydney & got a flag & that team still hasn't dropped out of the 8 & he has set us up the same way ....I will be eternally grateful over the future years when we will probably realise exactly what he has achieved. 

Keep in mind the list was essentially there and Rocket had done all the hard work really.

I like Roos   Perspective though is...we have just 6 wins !!  boorah !! 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Keep in mind the list was essentially there and Rocket had done all the hard work really.

I like Roos   Perspective though is...we have just 6 wins !!  boorah !! 

The Melbourne rebuilding, if it one day snags a premiership, may be Roos' greatest accomplishment.

This was Roos' first go at actually building from scratch. It's a bit misleading when people say that he made the Swans a power. There had been a fair bit of work done before he arrived. Barassi took them from embarrassment to competitive football team, Eade took them from competitive to perennial finalist and Roos took them from finalist to premiers. 

Roosy this time around has taken on the role of Ronald Dale. His job was to take a club that was five minutes to midnight on the extinction clock and to turn it into a team that could compete in and win games. Not all games but at least they would be in games for more than the first 2 minutes. 

As far as I can tell, he is leaving the club in a pretty similar position Barass left Sydney. 9 to 10 wins and the future looking brighter.

[spirit of norm smith 12,917]

Daniher

Northey

Roos

in that order

Neeld at the very bottom !!

[old55 21,339]

3 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Beveridge had also walked into a list that had had all the spade work done by Brendan McCartney. Not to take anything away from Bevo as he was the kind of coach they needed to make the transition from developing team to finals team but the young Dogs had definitely learnt the basics under Macca.

Is Macca the Dogs greatest coach since Charlie Sutton?

[Guest]

Just now, Fifty-5 said:

Is Macca the Dogs greatest coach since Charlie Sutton?

Well that's clearly just silly and ignores the context of what the discussion had evolved into.

mo64 seemed to me to be intimating (though I don't want to speak too much on his behalf) that the Roos era had not achieved what it had set out to by citing Luke Beveridge as someone who was able to walk into a club and get instant results. My point was that the situation that Roos walked into versus the one that Bevo walked into were vastly different.
Beveridge didn't have to give the list an entire facelift because most of the working parts were already there but the machine was not yet fully operational. Roos' machine was held together by a few rubber bands, band-aids and some used chewing gum and was being run by energy generated by a gerbil on a hamster wheel.

[Winners at last 4,729]

17 hours ago, praha said:

Coaching is not merely about win-loss record. If it was, Malthouse, Sheedy, Eade, Williams would still all have a job. 

The Scott brothers are bordering on unproven because neither have even attempted a rebuild. Longmire inherited Roos' squad and benefited from that. Simpson is overrated. Beveridge again benefited from spectacular drafting and development before him.

Roos had none of this. Literally. He came to a club that was arguably the worst list of the past 50 years. How he has turned it over and made it competitive is amazing. His coaching style has at times been at odds with the club P Jackson has wanted to build, and it's clear that Goodwin is driving a lot of it now, but it's working and improving a lot on the pieces he has added.

Jetta, Pederson, Hunt, Wagner, Watts, Gawn, M Jones, the way these guys have improved is amazing..

I'm not a massive fan of the Roos "style" of gameplan, but his people skills seem perfectly balanced next to development. He has built-in the perfect team for Goodwin, and started building it before he even knew Goodwin would be involved.

I stand to be corrected, but isn't Eade the coach of Gold Coast Suns?

[Pates 9,537]

18 hours ago, praha said:

Coaching is not merely about win-loss record. If it was, Malthouse, Sheedy, Eade, Williams would still all have a job. 

The Scott brothers are bordering on unproven because neither have even attempted a rebuild. Longmire inherited Roos' squad and benefited from that. Simpson is overrated. Beveridge again benefited from spectacular drafting and development before him.

Roos had none of this. Literally. He came to a club that was arguably the worst list of the past 50 years. How he has turned it over and made it competitive is amazing. His coaching style has at times been at odds with the club P Jackson has wanted to build, and it's clear that Goodwin is driving a lot of it now, but it's working and improving a lot on the pieces he has added.

Jetta, Pederson, Hunt, Wagner, Watts, Gawn, M Jones, the way these guys have improved is amazing..

I'm not a massive fan of the Roos "style" of gameplan, but his people skills seem perfectly balanced next to development. He has built-in the perfect team for Goodwin, and started building it before he even knew Goodwin would be involved.

I really argue against the mentality that the defensive game plan is "the Roos game plan". Roos always said first he was going to build the defence and then he was going to build the attack. I'm not saying Goodwin hasn't played a big part in driving the current style, but as his mentor and current senior coach I would also imagine Roos wouldn't send the players and club down a style that he didn't feel was appropriate. 

Clarkson has adapted Hawthorn's list and style to where the game is going and what suits the players, no doubt Roos has been as much of a driving force behind our attacking style as Goodwin. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

20 hours ago, mo64 said:

It's premature to be talking about culture and belief. Beveridge instilled belief into the Dogs from day 1. Belief equates to unexpected success. Haven't seen any evidence of that under Roos.

Apples and oranges look at what Roos inherited compared to Beveridge, one of the worst run clubs on and off field in the history of the game.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Dr. Gonzo

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

18 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

Don't worry mate, I don't. I've been sitting through the last 10 years as well.

My point is that he was given that flexibility by the support structures that, let's face it, the AFL started by bringing in PJ, and PJ then implemented.

My personal view is that he's not a particularly amazing coach. BUT, I don't dispute he's been a fantastic person to come in, say 'everyone just chill the F out, we'll sort out this mess', then get on with driving a team of coaches, recruiters and administrators to get it done.

You're also right that Clarkson might have taken as long to fix the complete shambles we were. But I reckon Clarkson, for example, might have squeezed out a couple more wins along the way, because he's a better coach.

Edit: To be fair, it's also worth noting that Roos was probably the only available person in the football world who has the swingers big enough to stare down the football world while this resurrection has been going on, and keep the wolves from the door while it gathered pace.

Clarkson sits comfortably alongside Smith and McHale as one of the best coaches of all time. Comparing Roos to that standard is a bit unfair.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Dr. Gonzo

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

9 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Beveridge had also walked into a list that had had all the spade work done by Brendan McCartney. Not to take anything away from Bevo as he was the kind of coach they needed to make the transition from developing team to finals team but the young Dogs had definitely learnt the basics under Macca.
Roos walked into a smoking crater. Culturally, we were regarded as the biggest clown car organization in the AFL. We would hear every few months (either through the media or through the grapevine) of many of our players after 6 o'clock antics. Plus the list was as close to VFL standard as I've ever seen. You can't tell me that's the case now.

Terlich and Matt Jones 3rd and 4th B&F says it all

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

8 hours ago, TRIGON said:

Have been impressed by what the current recruiting team has done thus far. 

As far as the thread poll goes, I would describe Roos as a wonderful 'football manager'.

Yes, if not a great coach (which I would dispute) he is easily the best leader the club has had since Smith, the person driving the direction of the entire club (in conjunction with PJ).