58 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

So much sooking!  

The GC experience shows success is not a given with the assistance provided to these clubs.  If GWS is successful it will be because of excellent management.  I support expansion and I remember the start of the Bears - ugly!

And a final point - we've exploited the opportunities the GWS assistance has provided more that any other club.  Hogan for Scully.  Salem and Tyson for Kelly.  Weidemann for Academy picks.  Our list would be poorer without our good trading relationship with them.

I prefer GWS to win the flag this year more than anyone else apart from the Dogs and possibly the Crows (who IMO have lost more to expansion than any other team and have also suffered the Walsh tragedy).  Hawrthorn, Sydney, Geelong, West Coast, North - yuk!

I dont mind expansion per se but would have preferred Tassie to no where's land. I dont like the way all the eggs went to two clubs at the expense of others ( especially us )  . However  If they can play footy they can have a crack at the cup. Of those out side of Hawks,Swans and Cats I think only the Pups have a chance. Crows havent the game to win the GF this year and the Giants would be cut down to size in the pressure cooker of finals.

Next year they all have to contend with us !! 

49 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

So much sooking!  

The GC experience shows success is not a given with the assistance provided to these clubs.  If GWS is successful it will be because of excellent management.  I support expansion and I remember the start of the Bears - ugly!

And a final point - we've exploited the opportunities the GWS assistance has provided more that any other club.  Hogan for Scully.  Salem and Tyson for Kelly.  Weidemann for Academy picks.  Our list would be poorer without our good trading relationship with them.

I prefer GWS to win the flag this year more than anyone else apart from the Dogs and possibly the Crows (who IMO have lost more to expansion than any other team and have also suffered the Walsh tragedy).  Hawrthorn, Sydney, Geelong, West Coast, North - yuk!

Exactly. There's a lot of small-minded parochialism here which, if you took it to its logical conclusion, would have the competition still firmly rooted in the VFL playing at suburban venues throughout Melbourne each week - and, relevantly, being absolutely irrelevant given the competitive landscape that is football in Australia.

I've been impressed with GWS. They have been ultra professional and have done well in unfamiliar, indeed hostile, territory. Their club song is one of the best (composed by a Demons supporter) and they seem to have developed a decent club culture from a blank canvas. In short, they are a competent organisation.

Until the Roos/PJ era, they made us look like the completely amateur, laughing stock that we actually were. So much for tradition simply getting you a seat at the table, which many here seem to think is good enough.

Yep, GWS have had a leg up. But honestly, what do people think it would actually take to pull this off - simply relocating the North Ballarat Roosters to NRL heartland and saying good luck fellas ...

 

If a team wins a flag and no one cares, did they really win a flag? 

29 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Exactly. There's a lot of small-minded parochialism here which, if you took it to its logical conclusion, would have the competition still firmly rooted in the VFL playing at suburban venues throughout Melbourne each week - and, relevantly, being absolutely irrelevant given the competitive landscape that is football in Australia.

There is a middle ground - I support expansion but also think the concessions went a bit far AND it is clearly AFL policy that the northern expansion clubs (particularly those in NSW) can't afford to bottom out. How is that fair in a COMPETITION where certain teams are regarded as expendable and others are regarded as required to be permanently challenging. The AFL will do whatever they need to to ensure these clubs are "successful" and if that means manipulating things so they get even more leg ups down the track it will happen. 

Effectively what I'm saying is the AFL is going to guarantee premierships for certain clubs to cement their expansion and GWS will absolutely win a flag (or 3) in the next 10 years.

2 hours ago, Abe said:

Giants are loaded with talent, but i don't rate Leon Cameron as a coach, and i think they can be exposed in contested ball, they fall away massively in this area if Mumford isn't at his best, and you don't just find players like Mumford easily. 

but my god it'd be depressing to miss out on a flag because of them.

the money that was put on offer to a Replacement ruck man recently , they are already planning on this .he knocked it back but it would have been a Scully deal and then some

2 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Exactly. There's a lot of small-minded parochialism here which, if you took it to its logical conclusion, would have the competition still firmly rooted in the VFL playing at suburban venues throughout Melbourne each week - and, relevantly, being absolutely irrelevant given the competitive landscape that is football in Australia.

I've been impressed with GWS. They have been ultra professional and have done well in unfamiliar, indeed hostile, territory. Their club song is one of the best (composed by a Demons supporter) and they seem to have developed a decent club culture from a blank canvas. In short, they are a competent organisation.

Until the Roos/PJ era, they made us look like the completely amateur, laughing stock that we actually were. So much for tradition simply getting you a seat at the table, which many here seem to think is good enough.

Yep, GWS have had a leg up. But honestly, what do people think it would actually take to pull this off - simply relocating the North Ballarat Roosters to NRL heartland and saying good luck fellas ...

 

Hey Ron are you on The GW$ Board?

You have been talking up these parasites since day one. 

Of course they are not going to fail. The AFL will shovel cash at them long after i am dead. 

But as i have said before, when they win a flag Will anyone care apart from the Broadcasters?

A case of premature  speculation in relation to a dynasty perhaps? It's not a given that they will win even one premiership and far more probable that they will not win multiple flags than the reverse. The human brain is conditioned to worry far more about what we might lose than what we might gain. GWS winning flags is no more or less of an obstacle to us winning a flag than any other team. In a non traditional football state they will need to do everything right and still rely on a healthy amount of luck to create a 'dynasty'. 

I think a lot of these predictions are based on fear and envy. Every Melbourne supporter knows that potential doesn't correlate that well with performance. There are more things that can cause the wheels on the GWS Bandwagon to fall off than remain on. Just like they did with Collingswood's young premiership list.

I'm content with GWS's progress. Yeah sure they are doing great - but Johnson and Shaw won't be there for years to come. Other clubs will do deals with GWS, like us in the off season. Their list will be pulled back to in-line with the rest of the 17 clubs soon enough and so will their salary cap. 

The way the AFL set it up - 'the we'll do what it takes to set them up for success the best we can' mantra has worked to date. Good management, good coaching will determine the level of their success from now. 

And I'll back our FD and PJ & Co to keep doing what they're doing with our list, our club - instead of sulking about the progress of other clubs.

 

14 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

Even with superior foot skills to everyone else, Hawthorn were not unbeatable. But they were the best team on the right day (3 times in a row). GWS are no Hawthorn. They will be more than beatable. I'm not really too concerned about a GWS dynasty. They might pinch 1 or 2, but there will be no 5-6 year dominance where other teams don't get a look in. We will get out chance, and if were are good enough to take it we will, if not, there will be no excuses.

Beat me to it. Essendon in 2001. Geelong in 2008. Collingwood in 2011. "Unbeatable", yet beaten.

Let's also not forget that GWS is yet to get the job done on the big stage. What's the biggest crowd they've played in front of? 50,000 at Adelaide Oval? How many times have they played and won on the MCG? I am skeptical of their capacity to win a flag at all. They haven't even played a final yet. 

I'd put my money on the Dogs to absolutely smash them in a GF.

two things:

• they are around 3 years more advanced than us - they are not a 'young team' anymore
• they will have massive salary cap issues and stars will have to leave

by the time we are really pushing for a flag - 3 years from now hopefully they are starting to feel the cap pressure and having some culture problems. we need to keep bringing young talent in rather than doing a 'North' and getting mature top up players and hopefully we will have our own dynasty from 2019-2025

ps. if i see scully win a flag i will literally spew. id prefer to see Hawks win another one rather than this bunch of fkwits

Regardless of the arguments for the need for expansion or propping them up forever, the reason why I can't stand GWS is that they are endlessly stuffed down our throats in NSW.   Yeah, I can see why, but I don;t have to like knowing that they will always be on TV, that they will always be talked up and that this will never stop.  Well, I guess it may someday in 2040 when they have more than a handful of supporters.

The Team of Orange & Charcoal..

My thoughts of GWS will always be coloured by the ten or so person cheer squad dressed like orange bananas at the MCG back in their early days.

I think we won that day but if I remember it was a struggle until the last quarter. (Was it the day that Austin Wonnemira ran the length of the MCG almost to score the sealing goal perhaps)

 

PS My apologies if I have incorrectly spelt Austin's surname

4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The Team of Orange & Charcoal..

Is this a new scale of MFCSS?

"We look like we might become good, but there will always be a team better than us".

Madness.

39 minutes ago, sue said:

Regardless of the arguments for the need for expansion or propping them up forever, the reason why I can't stand GWS is that they are endlessly stuffed down our throats in NSW.   Yeah, I can see why, but I don;t have to like knowing that they will always be on TV, that they will always be talked up and that this will never stop.  Well, I guess it may someday in 2040 when they have more than a handful of supporters.

Spent the weekend up there...Hardly saw any mention of footy.. I will say however that on ONE screen inside Sharkies on Sunday they had the game.  One out of about a dozen...lol.  I just never here footy mentioned much in Sydney...Then again...Im hardly there.

If the Giants do get to play in a GF I hope the AFL puts up some money for a tuba gypsy marching band with lycra clad male choir version of their song...

It's actually a rollicking tune! We'd better get used to it...

 

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I dont mind expansion per se but would have preferred Tassie to no where's land. I dont like the way all the eggs went to two clubs at the expense of others ( especially us )  . However  If they can play footy they can have a crack at the cup. Of those out side of Hawks,Swans and Cats I think only the Pups have a chance. Crows havent the game to win the GF this year and the Giants would be cut down to size in the pressure cooker of finals.

Next year they all have to contend with us !! 

Without wanting to raise a tedious debate that has been done a dozen times already, putting a team in Tasmania would not be expanding the game, it would be diluting it.

1 minute ago, Nasher said:

Without wanting to raise a tedious debate that has been done a dozen times already, putting a team in Tasmania would not be expanding the game, it would be diluting it.

Well since you have,  Did WCE and Freo dilute it in WA ?

20 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Well since you have,  Did WCE and Freo dilute it in WA ?

I've never lived in WA, but I suspect that prior to the Eagles being formed, not very many people over there were members of any of the VFL clubs or took anything more than a passing interest.  Placing a team/teams there adds to the total membership and support of the national competition.

In Tassie, everyone who might ever barrack for an AFL team already does, and is probably already a member of the club they barrack for.

You've known me from this forum for a damn long time now, you reckon I'd drop my MFC membership and pick up a "Tassie Devils" one just because they rocked up?  Does it help AFL membership and growth if I did?  Tassie would gain a membership and the MFC would lose one, a net change of zero. That just seems pointless to me.

Furthermore, there's no prospect of ever being able to draw a crowd of 30000 or more with a Tasmanian team.  Our population is too small, sparse, and parochial about which end of the state they live in.  You could argue there's no prospect of GWS ever doing that either, but I think you would be wrong.

It might have worked in the early 90s when our local competition was strong, and hadn't yet been killed off by mass televisation of the AFL (people still went to the footy then).  Too late now I reckon.

5 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Exactly. There's a lot of small-minded parochialism here which, if you took it to its logical conclusion, would have the competition still firmly rooted in the VFL playing at suburban venues throughout Melbourne each week - and, relevantly, being absolutely irrelevant given the competitive landscape that is football in Australia.

I've been impressed with GWS. They have been ultra professional and have done well in unfamiliar, indeed hostile, territory. Their club song is one of the best (composed by a Demons supporter) and they seem to have developed a decent club culture from a blank canvas. In short, they are a competent organisation.

Until the Roos/PJ era, they made us look like the completely amateur, laughing stock that we actually were. So much for tradition simply getting you a seat at the table, which many here seem to think is good enough.

Yep, GWS have had a leg up. But honestly, what do people think it would actually take to pull this off - simply relocating the North Ballarat Roosters to NRL heartland and saying good luck fellas ...

 

Good post. My childhood memories of the VFL are wonderful memories and is the foundation of my faith and love of the game. The nature and development of the national game has taken away some of the spirit and soul of the game for the older supporters. It has become a product and clubs are talked about in business terms. GWS is another one of the AFLs franchises, and Head Office will have to continue to support the franchise in a manner that makes it unfair on the traditional clubs. Unfortunately, business, sport and life per se is not a level playing field.

Having said that, I agree that the GWS outfit is super professional. Talking to the father of a very good player, he confirms that GWS has been fantastic in its support for his boy and is super professional in everything it does, so much so that it is unlikely (unless his boy is traded) that he will play for another club despite being a Victorian.

The set-up for GWS is a benign form of match-fixing. It is match-fixing, none the less. It is also a payment to the media companies for financially supporting a national competition. Melbourne is no longer unique as a bottom-feeding club however, as dinosaur clubs such as Richmond, Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton, long super-powers of the competition are now minnows only propped up by the generations of supporters who still remember when these clubs were good. I remember similarly disliking Sydney in the 1980's, and Gerard Healey in particular. I was especially satisfied when the Dees smashed them in the '87 finals series. These days I would be happy for Sydney to survive and the Greater western sinkhole to founder, as this would be karma to  the AFL for how they pick winners through cash allocations, fixturing, TV coverage and not to mention psycho-away footy jumpers which dilute the heritage of the foundation clubs.

4 hours ago, PaulRB said:

If the Giants do get to play in a GF I hope the AFL puts up some money for a tuba gypsy marching band with lycra clad male choir version of their song...

It's actually a rollicking tune! We'd better get used to it...

 

I must confess  it's ok as a theme.   Somehow  have visions of the Leningrad Cowboys performing this  ( and that would be pretty cool )

On 23 June 2016 at 10:10 AM, Ron Burgundy said:

Exactly. There's a lot of small-minded parochialism here which, if you took it to its logical conclusion, would have the competition still firmly rooted in the VFL playing at suburban venues throughout Melbourne each week - and, relevantly, being absolutely irrelevant given the competitive landscape that is football in Australia.

I've been impressed with GWS. They have been ultra professional and have done well in unfamiliar, indeed hostile, territory. Their club song is one of the best (composed by a Demons supporter) and they seem to have developed a decent club culture from a blank canvas. In short, they are a competent organisation.

Until the Roos/PJ era, they made us look like the completely amateur, laughing stock that we actually were. So much for tradition simply getting you a seat at the table, which many here seem to think is good enough.

Yep, GWS have had a leg up. But honestly, what do people think it would actually take to pull this off - simply relocating the North Ballarat Roosters to NRL heartland and saying good luck fellas ...

 

 

I'm not against the National Competition and I realise that if we didn't expand we would have eventually disappeared, that said it was a great competition for many years with the inter suburb rivalry.

You should be impressed with he GWS, they have done well in the draft and in trading picks to the feeder clubs, like the rest of the competition and they have been, indeed fortunate that they have been able to hand pick the top players they required from the rest of the clubs in the competition. The AFL has poured $millions in to them and given them the biggest leg up ever known, if they couldn't succeed with that start, then you would have to ask the question; would the future of the AFL itself be in doubt. Was the competition becoming just another bigger version of the VFL with the same long term future?

Don't you think that we could have done equally as well if the AFL decided to restructure our club and tip in $100m over 5 years and offering up 10 of the top 20 in a few year's drafts in a row? How do you think PJ would feel if he went in every day knowing that money was no object and Roos had so much talent he had to tip some out because he only had to field one side week? Wouldn't it be good to make a $6m mistake and not have to worry about it because there was more where that came from? Just as a matter of interest, where did the AFL get the money for this little adventure; from the traditional clubs, that's where.

GWS have had a leg up, well that's a bit of an understatement, don't you think?  Let's see how they are travelling in 10 years time when the money has run out, ask Brisbane about that, and they still have a membership under 20,000.  GWS are there for the TV rights and that's all, the AFL are clever in doing this but will it all fall apart when the club's like GC, Brisbane and eventually GWS prove to be ratings disasters.

 

 

Good on rhe giants. I like them and hope they do well. I look forward to our rivalry.

I also like their song. With its gypsy, marching band vibe a clever nod to traditional club songs from a very talented muso, Harry angus of cat empire fame.