Greater Western Sydney (a dynasty to rival the Hawks)

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

We also need to push for an academy to match those in the Northern states.  We might see a combined push from a number of clubs in that area in order for that to happen.

Casey is our academy, no need to rush youngsters in, think we are also going to astutely use the B class rookie to develop left field options, we are getting it right slowly

[Dante 2,739]

10 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Casey is our academy, no need to rush youngsters in, think we are also going to astutely use the B class rookie to develop left field options, we are getting it right slowly

How do you work that out, is there something that only you know?

Do we have first rights on any player at Casey or is it just first in best dressed as it is with all non AFL players in the VFL.

 

[old dee 23,872]

Just now, Dante said:

How do you work that out, is there something that only you know?

Do we have first rights on any player at Casey or is it just first in best dressed as it is with all non AFL players in the VFL.

 

Correct Dante any Casey player not on the MFC list is fair game to any other club.

[Macca 17,034]

1 minute ago, Satyriconhome said:

Casey is our academy, no need to rush youngsters in, think we are also going to astutely use the B class rookie to develop left field options, we are getting it right slowly

But it's not the same is it?

I'm not necessarily advocating a return to the old zoning system that was in existence but a new improved model that can benefit a club like ours.  Some creative thinking could come up with a system where we can end up with the same options that the Northern states have.  As I said, a combined & concerted push from a number of clubs with that idea is on the cards.

It's a significant advantage to able to bring in 1 or 2 talented youngsters (who have been nurtured and developed properly) on a yearly basis - over a 5 or 10 year period, that advantage is extremely significant.  Plus, the points system in place to secure these youngsters is quite a straight forward one for those clubs to handle.

[Little Goffy 14,639]

They've crafted their list astutely to get a cycle going.

A peak right now with their 4 elite veterans over 30yrs - Mumford, Shaw, Johnson and Griffen (plus Patfull, who I wouldn't argue is elite, but he has played the full season). Followed by a quick reset for sustained success with a huge group of currently 22-23 year olds, which will by then have Ward, Davis and Scully as their veterans.

Right now they are in form, astonishingly injury free, and looking very dangerous. Yep, they really could sneak through this year, which would be properly annoying. I don't think I'd even watch if it was a Hawthorn/Western Sydney grand final.

BUT

A dynasty? I've heard this before...

Port Adelaide 2014. Oops.

Carlton in 2011. Well, that one seems particularly silly now.

Collingwood 2010. Ha ha ha ha terrific. Ahh, so good to have an excuse to reflect on how they've gone since then.

St Kilda, in 2009 and still in 2010. Nobody at the time thought that loss to Collingwood was the end of an era.

Melbourne in 2006. Remember when we were the club that was going to rise and reclaim glory for Victoria?

Port Adelaide 2004. "They've finally taken the next step. They've dominated four consecutive H&A seasons, and now they are ready to take over the mantle from the Lions".

Essendon 2000. The 'greatest team ever' or something... which steadily faded into obscurity once the Lions bumped them around the very next year. A Buckley-grade slide.

 

I'll believe it when I see it, is all.

[Dee Dee 1,117]

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

 

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, 

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

I remember people on this forum saying how lucky we wore to receive low draft picks in 08 and 09 because it would put us in a commanding position when Gold Coast came in the following year and GWS after that. Watts, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Lucas Cook, Blease, Tapscott: not all out and out failures but not too many out and out stars. We the Melbourne Football Club Fu#%ed up big time.

At least things look a little better now, and reviewing those drafts where GC and GWS had players handed to them on a plate is disturbing for me, at least we are in a better position now than in 08 or 09!

[Sir Why You Little 37,130]

8 minutes ago, Dante said:

How do you work that out, is there something that only you know?

Do we have first rights on any player at Casey or is it just first in best dressed as it is with all non AFL players in the VFL.

 

Satyr is just so informed..

For someone who hangs around the club so much, it really is astounding..!

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

8 minutes ago, Macca said:

But it's not the same is it?

I'm not necessarily advocating a return to the old zoning system that was in existence but a new improved model that can benefit a club like ours.  Some creative thinking could come up with a system where we can end up with the same options that the Northern states have.  As I said, a combined & concerted push from a number of clubs with that idea is on the cards.

It's a significant advantage to able to bring in 1 or 2 talented youngsters (who have been nurtured and developed properly) on a yearly basis - over a 5 or 10 year period, that advantage is extremely significant.  Plus, the points system in place to secure these youngsters is quite a straight forward one for those clubs to handle.

All clubs now have a 'New Generation Academy' but it is for multicultural and indigenous players, not all players like GWS et al have.

Emma Quayle:  http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-clubs-to-get-free-shot-at-multicultural-and-indigenous-rookies-after-this-years-draft-20160727-gqexp2.html

We have nominated Daniel Allsop for 2016 as a category B rookie if he is left undrafted after the main and rookie drafts.

It isn't the same as you describe and like the old zoning system, clubs may try and exploit it by 'encouraging' budding player families to relocate into their zone to have first choice at drafting (on the same basis as Northern States).  Our zone is South-east Melbourne (Dandenong Stingrays), Alice Springs (NT).

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

18 minutes ago, Dante said:

How do you work that out, is there something that only you know?

Do we have first rights on any player at Casey or is it just first in best dressed as it is with all non AFL players in the VFL.

 

No I meant we can develop young players properly, Hawthorn have been doing the same thing at Box Hill for the last few years, Roos recognised this and has developed Casey accordingly.

The academy is overrated as far as I am concerned, it is just where young players are developed, we may hear about the success but not the failures, similar to the soccer academies in Europe, they are satisfied if they get one a year making the grade

[Macca 17,034]

8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

All clubs now have a 'New Generation Academy' but it is for multicultural and indigenous players, not all players like GWS et al have.

Emma Quayle:  http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-clubs-to-get-free-shot-at-multicultural-and-indigenous-rookies-after-this-years-draft-20160727-gqexp2.html

We have nominated Daniel Allsop for 2016 as a category B rookie if he is left undrafted after the main and rookie drafts.

It isn't the same as you describe and like the old zoning system, clubs may try and exploit it by 'encouraging' budding player families to relocate into their zone to have first choice at drafting (on the same basis as Northern States).  Our zone is South-east Melbourne (Dandenong Stingrays), Alice Springs (NT).

Yeah, I knew about that LH but others may not have ... it pays to remind people as you have though.

It's a start and definitely a step in the right direction ... not sure how clubs could have pure academies without zones but some creative thinkers would probably come up with some decent outcomes. 

The problem with the old zones was that some zones were significantly stronger than others and they were also, at times, open for manipulation (players changing addresses etc)

Our country zone wasn't strong (Goulburn Valley) and our metro zone gave us poor returns as well ... the zones were supposed to be reevaluated every 3 - 5 years but that never happened. 

Oddly enough, as soon as drafting came in, we started to improve our list after being in the wilderness for 20 odd years.  But drafting is flawed as well - there's good times & bad times.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

39 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

No I meant we can develop young players properly, Hawthorn have been doing the same thing at Box Hill for the last few years, Roos recognised this and has developed Casey accordingly.

The academy is overrated as far as I am concerned, it is just where young players are developed, we may hear about the success but not the failures, similar to the soccer academies in Europe, they are satisfied if they get one a year making the grade

I wouldn't go that far.  The reason people are up in arms about the academies is that a club like GWS gets access to some of the best players in the region without any real competition from other clubs.  Same goes for the Swans.  

They still need to develop them properly, no argument there, but that job is made easier when guys like Heeney, Mills and Hopper, for example, fall into your lap.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

On 22 June 2016 at 8:43 PM, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

It's a scary thought...

However, Essendon were arguably the best team in the league from 1999-2001 and only won one flag; Geelong were the best team for 2007-2011 and only took out three; while the Hawks were the dominant team of 2012 but lost the GF to Sydney.

Having the 'best' team doesn't necessarily win you flags.

Exactly. Us oldies still remember 1958 only to well. 

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

9 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

 The reason people are up in arms about the academies is that a club like GWS gets access to some of the best players in the region without any real competition from other clubs.  Same goes for the Swans.

The Swans took Heeney was 12 and Mills when he was 13, so they took the long view, and no guarantee of success

[Wiseblood 24,637]

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The Swans took Heeney was 12 and Mills when he was 13, so they took the long view, and no guarantee of success

Yes, and they took them because they are allowed to have academies.  It also meant that they are being trained, developed and molded in the way they want them to be from an early age.  That's a very handy advantage to have on the other clubs.

What about the Vic clubs?  We get them when they're 18 and we have to develop them from there.  We can still do it, but we're coming from a long, long way back in that regard.  Mills and Heeney assimilate better to the senior side as they have been around that environment for years.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

Yes, and they took them because they are allowed to have academies.  It also meant that they are being trained, developed and molded in the way they want them to be from an early age.  That's a very handy advantage to have on the other clubs.

What about the Vic clubs?  We get them when they're 18 and we have to develop them from there.  We can still do it, but we're coming from a long, long way back in that regard.  Mills and Heeney assimilate better to the senior side as they have been around that environment for years.

That's being a bit harsh on both the APS teams and the TAC Cup.

It also still means it is a matter of them developing as well, Sydney are looking at about 600 youngsters at any one time, and they are also playing junior footy as well

[daisycutter 29,738]

2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The Swans took Heeney was 12 and Mills when he was 13, so they took the long view, and no guarantee of success

so? that (an academy), was still an option not available to other clubs. yes, it was a good idea in principle to foster new talent in greenfield areas, but there are no limits on how many academy players these clubs can have first preference over. also, the academy geographical areas include non-greenfield areas like the riverina.  

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Satyriconhome said:

That's being a bit harsh on both the APS teams and the TAC Cup.

It also still means it is a matter of them developing as well, Sydney are looking at about 600 youngsters at any one time, and they are also playing junior footy as well

I'm not being harsh, it's just fact.  We get them at 18 - I'm not saying the TAC Cup don't develop them or anything like that, but Sydney get them early and develop them the way they want, while also giving them exposure and training with the senior side.  That's a big difference.

Plus we're fighting with 17 other clubs over the TAC Cup draftees, while as you say, Sydney get a free hit at 600 kids, some of which turned out to be guys like Mills and Heeney.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I'm not being harsh, it's just fact.  We get them at 18 - I'm not saying the TAC Cup don't develop them or anything like that, but Sydney get them early and develop them the way they want, while also giving them exposure and training with the senior side.  That's a big difference.

Plus we're fighting with 17 other clubs over the TAC Cup draftees, while as you say, Sydney get a free hit at 600 kids, some of which turned out to be guys like Mills and Heeney.

Just another point, and I agree it happens with other sports as well Heeney was playing Rugby League mostly when spotted by the Swans and Mills Rugby Union so yesthey have been lucky to have an academy, but they have also worked hard to create two AFL standard players........just find the 'spilt milk' syndrome that occurs in a lot of Melbourne supporters a bit tiresome

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Satyriconhome said:

Just another point, and I agree it happens with other sports as well Heeney was playing Rugby League mostly when spotted by the Swans and Mills Rugby Union so yesthey have been lucky to have an academy, but they have also worked hard to create two AFL standard players........just find the 'spilt milk' syndrome that occurs in a lot of Melbourne supporters a bit tiresome

Never suggested they didn't - but they got a free hit on 2 talented kids when they were still 12 and 13 years old.  Again, that gave them plenty of time.  They didn't pluck them from obscurity at the draft as project players, they were ready to go from day 1 when they were eligible.  

I don't [censored] and moan about they concessions they were given, as what can we do about it now?  Not much.  We just need to continue to draft well, trade well and develop our players in the best possible environment.  If we can continue to do that then we'll play finals football and give ourselves every chance of some real success.

[Diamond_Jim 12,628]

2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Just another point, and I agree it happens with other sports as well Heeney was playing Rugby League mostly when spotted by the Swans and Mills Rugby Union so yesthey have been lucky to have an academy, but they have also worked hard to create two AFL standard players........just find the 'spilt milk' syndrome that occurs in a lot of Melbourne supporters a bit tiresome

52 years without a flag including stints of 23 years and 10 years between a finals appearance will do that to you.

 

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

5 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

52 years without a flag including stints of 23 years and 10 years between a finals appearance will do that to you.

 

Yes I also understand that, but we get a new crack at it every year and what is past is past, the poo we were in was all self inflicted,  we have actually learned some things from the teams like the Swans (from an obvious source) and GWS and we are actually implementing them, so next seasons crack might be louder

[thevil1 421]

24 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

That's being a bit harsh on both the APS teams and the TAC Cup.

It also still means it is a matter of them developing as well, Sydney are looking at about 600 youngsters at any one time, and they are also playing junior footy as well

Not harsh at all, is a view shared by one Paul Roos, re the APS & TAC Cup.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

4 minutes ago, thevil1 said:

Not harsh at all, is a view shared by one Paul Roos, re the APS & TAC Cup.

Yes but the young academy players play junior footy as well, and if you are a bit of a star it will be all too easy, being aligned to a professional environment albeit on a part time basis may assist, but you are still a teenager, if you say defence to any young player it is the thing that goes around de house

[thevil1 421]

Professional advice, facilities, coaching etc even on just a part time basis over a 5/6 year period is a big advantage on a teenagers development any way you cut it. That's why they spend good money doing it & so far the return on investment for those teams has been fantastic with kids making big contributions to finals bound teams pretty much straight away. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by thevil1

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

5 minutes ago, thevil1 said:

Professional advice, facilities, coaching etc even on just a part time basis over a 5/6 year period is a big advantage on a teenagers development any way you cut it. That's why they spend good money doing it & so far the return on investment for those teams has been fantastic with kids making big contributions to finals bound teams pretty much straight away. 

Founded 2010.......6 years academy graduates Brandon Jack; Lloyd Perris; Sam Naismith; Dan Robinson; Isaac Heeney; Jack Hiscox; Abaina Davis and Jordan Foote and Mills, 3 in six years

Edited September 11, 2016 by Satyriconhome