2014 recruiting creating a dynasty

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

53 minutes ago, It's Time said:

The topics about the quality of this one draft group. Not necessarily how many Premierships we are going to win. We need a lot more than just this group to make that happen and quite a few of the others are starting to emerge. I just think it's proving to be a particularly good group of quality players all of whom look like they are going to make it and who play all over the ground and have given real depth and skill to the team. Especially relevant in light of previous recruiting and drafting.

I know exactly what you mean. But to compare our list to Geelongs 3 Flag dynasty is a fcuking big call considering we have done nothing yet except show some hope

[Its Time for Another 4,217]

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I know exactly what you mean. But to compare our list to Geelongs 3 Flag dynasty is a fcuking big call considering we have done nothing yet except show some hope

You're getting caught up in end results of Premierships. I'm not even going there. I'm looking at the quality of the players recruited in this one period. They alone won't make a dynasty. Obviously you need 22 players on the ground. Plus another group of equally competitive players to cover injuries. Plus everything else needs to be right. Development, coaching etc. However, for what it's worth I think this group has the makings of a group that are virtually all going to be around for a long time and will form the nucleus of the team for the next 10 years. That's what I call a dynasty. I use the Cats of 2000 as an example because they had a group come in the one year who formed a nucleus for the next 10 or so years.

 

[Cranky Franky 2,060]

55 minutes ago, jayceebee31 said:

Agree....But.....he will play Firsts at Casey and has a long way to go, like his brother.....but I still l believe he will still become a gun...look,at Gawn as an example...

 

another example is Dunn.

Gawn, Tom McD, & Dunn all showed some talent & ability from their first few games Oscar has not.  He was at Casey reserves for the first half of 2015 then got 2 charity games at the end.

In the NAB games this year he has been awful and pretty much completely lost.  He has no strength or physical aggression, poor vision and ordinary disposal.

I sincerely hope he makes it too but lets keeps some perspective. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

12 minutes ago, It's Time said:

You're getting caught up in end results of Premierships. I'm not even going there. I'm looking at the quality of the players recruited in this one period. They alone won't make a dynasty. Obviously you need 22 players on the ground. Plus another group of equally competitive players to cover injuries. Plus everything else needs to be right. Development, coaching etc. However, for what it's worth I think this group has the makings of a group that are virtually all going to be around for a long time and will form the nucleus of the team for the next 10 years. That's what I call a dynasty. I use the Cats of 2000 as an example because they had a group come in the one year who formed a nucleus for the next 10 or so years.

 

Yes i know but none of them have done anything yet accept show promise sporadically...

[DeeSpencer 25,708]

Any successful team (dynasty is stupid, I'll take a top 4 finishes first thanks) will probably be on the back of multiple years of recruiting, particularly: 

12 - Hogan and Viney (Kent, Ben Kennedy)

13 - Salem and Tyson (JKH, Hunt, Harmes)

14 - Petracca and Brayshaw (Stretch, ANB, Frost, O Mc, Vanders, White)

15 - Oliver and Weideman (etc)

Plus Gawn, McDonald, one of the King boys providing the tall structure and some slightly older guys like Bugg, Melksham, Watts, Jetta, Trengove being up to finals level. 

If we don't nail a couple of really classy outside runners with kicking skills I'm not sure we will get anywhere. We need to draft or trade for them over the next few years. 

I'm comfortable with where our list is at but it's going to take more good recruiting as well as fantastic development to get anywhere. The top picks are the easy ones for recruiters. We've made a bold move last year and we'll need to nail this years draft to keep the momentum building. 

Plus it's time we get involved with free agency, up our delisted free agency game possibly and keep finding trades especially if we have players who want to leave. 

[DeeSpencer 25,708]

6 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

Gawn, Tom McD, & Dunn all showed some talent & ability from their first few games Oscar has not.  He was at Casey reserves for the first half of 2015 then got 2 charity games at the end.

In the NAB games this year he has been awful and pretty much completely lost.  He has no strength or physical aggression, poor vision and ordinary disposal.

I sincerely hope he makes it too but lets keeps some perspective. 

I always saw talent with Gawn but he was a mile off. Tommy showed his endurance and energy early that was about it. Dunn was a first round pick medium forward, you'd hope he'd offer something. 

I'm not overly convinced by Oscar but the longer the game went the better he got on Sunday and he was much better than the Port game. I think his disposal and vision have been a step up from ordinary, certainly something to work with for a tall defender. Certainly he lacks strength and aggression but he does have endurance. I'm not going to hold it against him for not being strong or aggressive when he's 10kg lighter than his opponents. I'd like to see more speed and skills from him but I think he has adequate amounts of both.

Tom Lonergan and Ted Richards have been two of the better key defenders for the last 5+ years. Both started as nothing forward types and were thrown back and developed by good clubs. Neither have been aggressive, both started with very average skills and Lonergan developed a lot of strength over time. 

Due to Dunn's injury Oscar got a run against a capable forward in Bruce and spent time on Riewoldt. The saints didn't find room for their young key defender in Goddard even though he was pick 20 or whatever he was.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

We're all quite rightly in a buoyant mood but someone around here is going to be cynical so I may as well give it a shot. This is not a knock on Taylor but to praise him and the recruiters for recruiting a dynasty is rather overblown. Frawley walked. No big decision and we were fortunate to score a number 3 pick because we had been crap. (See also pick 2). Petracca and Brayshaw were touted as the best mids available. St Kilda needed a KPF and allowed us to select both. No decision making necessary. 

Again, in ways, we were lucky (in the end at least) to receive some currency for Mitch Clarke. We spent it on Lumumba who has performed well down on expectations. We scored Bernie for around the same pick the year before. He may come good, but part of our dynasty?

Garlett's abilities were clear so there was no genius involved in identifying untapped talent and there were evident reasons for his downturn in form. We took a punt on behavioral issues. It has proved a good punt to date but we also benefited from mad Mick throwing him away for the proverbial packet of chips to make a statement.

We paid for Sam Frost with an early second-rounder (again around the Bernie mark). He may become a useful addition but he's a long way from being identifiable as a future dynasty utility or KPP at this stage. We did get some later picks in return. ANB and OMac both slid from memory. Again, fortunate, if they prove to be decent selections. There are some okay signs but again we're along way from discussing them as components of any speculated dynasty. Ditto Stretch, a father son (can't recall where he was bid) who is also yet to fully force his way into the team.

Newton seems a good pick up for free to add some depth. Great recruitment is relative to making tough, seemingly speculative calls (Oliver) and the currency available. Our rookie drafting was excellent.

 

I agree with much of this but I'd go further and say Lumumba and Newton are busts to date, ANB probably won't make it and if he does will be a FAQ player at best but I do hold hopes for OMac and Stretch.

The dynasty that you talk of will come from the strategy put into place and executed beautifully by the LM team over several years.  The Tyson/Salem deal was exceptional, the Hogan deal whilst not losing Viney was great, Petracca and Brayshaw dead easy choices it would appear and the manipulating of the system this year allowing us pick 3 and 9 just brilliant. Interestingly in the three years since Roos came we've traded our pick around 20 for Vince, Frost and Melksham.

Jason Taylor hasn't flamed a pick yet really but it's far too early to tell.  But the overall strategy and implementation gives us a chance of being a powerful club once again.

JT picks from his first year: Salem, JKH, Hunt, Petracca, Brayshaw, ANB, Stretch, OMac, Oliver, Weideman, King, Hulett.  Apart from the first round picks there isn't a best 22 player.  That's not a criticism just an observation.

His rookie picks:  Harmes, King, Georgiou, AVB, White and Wagner appear to be exceptional when judged against the expectations of rookies.

[Guest]

And somewhere Cameron Schwab is smiling and nodding in agreement. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

Relax. We've got this.

[Spirit of 26 261]

Just as long its better than this one.

[Its Time for Another 4,217]

20 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I agree with much of this but I'd go further and say Lumumba and Newton are busts to date, ANB probably won't make it and if he does will be a FAQ player at best but I do hold hopes for OMac and Stretch.

The dynasty that you talk of will come from the strategy put into place and executed beautifully by the LM team over several years.  The Tyson/Salem deal was exceptional, the Hogan deal whilst not losing Viney was great, Petracca and Brayshaw dead easy choices it would appear and the manipulating of the system this year allowing us pick 3 and 9 just brilliant. Interestingly in the three years since Roos came we've traded our pick around 20 for Vince, Frost and Melksham.

Jason Taylor hasn't flamed a pick yet really but it's far too early to tell.  But the overall strategy and implementation gives us a chance of being a powerful club once again.

JT picks from his first year: Salem, JKH, Hunt, Petracca, Brayshaw, ANB, Stretch, OMac, Oliver, Weideman, King, Hulett.  Apart from the first round picks there isn't a best 22 player.  That's not a criticism just an observation.

His rookie picks:  Harmes, King, Georgiou, AVB, White and Wagner appear to be exceptional when judged against the expectations of rookies.

Strange combination of statements. ANB who played some great games last year especially against the Cats is going to be a FAQ. For some reason you think Stretch offered more. Newton overcame injuries and played some great games in the last weeks of last season and showed he may well make it but according to you he's a bust. Lumumba was injured so you write him off for having a bad season. 

You write off a whole lot of first year players as not best 22 without giving them a chance. 

Excuse my ignorance what's the LM?

[Members' Wing 1,106]

1 minute ago, It's Time said:

Strange combination of statements. ANB who played some great games last year especially against the Cats is going to be a FAQ. For some reason you think Stretch offered more. Newton overcame injuries and played some great games in the last weeks of last season and showed he may well make it but according to you he's a bust. Lumumba was injured so you write him off for having a bad season. 

You write off a whole lot of first year players as not best 22 without giving them a chance. 

Excuse my ignorance what's the LM?

List Management.

ANB and Newton mixed in some good games, not great, with poor ones. Can't see either of them ever being more than fringe players from what they've shown so far in comparison to others on our list.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

In my opinion the only 2 picks that should be judged for this draft are ANB and OMac and I don't rate either pick. 

OMac has looked so far off the pace and doesn't compliment his brother well within the team.

ANB, while playing some good games last season seems a poor pick for mine. He is OK at all parts of the game but appears to lack a standout trait that will see him ever amount to anything more than a fringe player. Given that our 'key players' are inside mids with OK to GOOD skills and pace (not elite) we really should have been looking for some elite skills or speed with this pick. Jack Lonie - the next pick would have fitted in much better. 

The rookie draft is looking good and all credit to the recruiting staff for that.

[P-man 13,366]

I find it staggering that anyone would even motion towards putting the red line through Neal-Bullen already. 

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

9 minutes ago, P-man said:

I find it staggering that anyone would even motion towards putting the red line through Neal-Bullen already. 

I'm not but it's my judgement at the moment that he will not be more than an ok player.  I hope he proves me wrong but that's the way I saw it.  I don't think he's played some great game BTW IT but I do think he did some nice things.

Lumumba is a trade not a JT pick but IMO we'd be better off with a straight swap for Varcoe.  Perhaps he didn't want to come.  Newton won't make it IMO because to many others will be ahead of him.

[Its Time for Another 4,217]

1 minute ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I'm not but it's my judgement at the moment that he will not be more than an ok player.  I hope he proves me wrong but that's the way I saw it.  I don't think he's played some great game BTW IT but I do think he did some nice things.

Lumumba is a trade not a JT pick but IMO we'd be better off with a straight swap for Varcoe.  Perhaps he didn't want to come.  Newton won't make it IMO because to many others will be ahead of him.

Totally agree with you on Varcoe but it was never on. We were bent over on this one by Clarke and lucky to get something when it looked like it was going to be nothing. Let's see by the end of this year whether it was a bust or not. Not like Cats did too well out of it either. 

ANB demonstrated all the traits that were described as a junior. Good contested player who can get his own ball, elite running capacity, excellent reader of the play. He continually bobbed up in the forward line to create options that we never used to have. He did that by reading the play a hell of a lot better than a lot of the outside runners we have had around the place for a long time. Knew when to gut run into the forward line and create options and kick goals. Eg the Geelong game. 

I really don't understand the lack of love based on what he did last year.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

3 minutes ago, It's Time said:

Totally agree with you on Varcoe but it was never on. We were bent over on this one by Clarke and lucky to get something when it looked like it was going to be nothing. Let's see by the end of this year whether it was a bust or not. Not like Cats did too well out of it either. 

ANB demonstrated all the traits that were described as a junior. Good contested player who can get his own ball, elite running capacity, excellent reader of the play. He continually bobbed up in the forward line to create options that we never used to have. He did that by reading the play a hell of a lot better than a lot of the outside runners we have had around the place for a long time. Knew when to gut run into the forward line and create options and kick goals. Eg the Geelong game. 

I really don't understand the lack of love based on what he did last year.

I look at attributes a player has.  Not a strong overhead mark, not fast, not a lethal kick. He does many things well but nothing is elite.  IMO to become the player many think he will he'll need to be a ball magnet and get it 30 times a game.  I've not seen that.

I think Stretch will be much better.  Has very good pace, great endurance and is a good decision maker with exceptional disposal.

It's a view, that's all.

[praha 11,240]

"2003 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2009 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2010 recruiting creating a dynasty"

[P-man 13,366]

13 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I look at attributes a player has.  Not a strong overhead mark, not fast, not a lethal kick. He does many things well but nothing is elite.  IMO to become the player many think he will he'll need to be a ball magnet and get it 30 times a game.  I've not seen that.

I think Stretch will be much better.  Has very good pace, great endurance and is a good decision maker with exceptional disposal.

It's a view, that's all.

I understand that to a degree, but as IT mentions, some key attributes we have seen is his ability win his own ball and an ability to read the play, get into good positions etc.

i don't think it's a matter of saying whether he will or won't become a good player. I'm certainly not saying he WILL. I just think it's far too early to be making a judgement on how well his abilities will translate to AFL level.

11 minutes ago, praha said:

"2003 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2009 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2010 recruiting creating a dynasty"

I also cringe a little, but you have to admit this time it feels a lot different. Viney, Brayshaw, Salem....we're talking a different breed to Morton, Tapscott and Strauss.

[hemingway 7,627]

Like other supporters I am encouraged by the quality of some our young players and also team development. However, the competition also has exciting youngsters that could turn out to be stars. Other sides have developing lists that their supporters are encouraged by. Like most supporters we need to see improvement over the season and individual talent and team performance that produces wins in a consistent basis against all sides. We still have a long way to go.

[Its Time for Another 4,217]

20 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Like other supporters I am encouraged by the quality of some our young players and also team development. However, the competition also has exciting youngsters that could turn out to be stars. Other sides have developing lists that their supporters are encouraged by. Like most supporters we need to see improvement over the season and individual talent and team performance that produces wins in a consistent basis against all sides. We still have a long way to go.

True but few of them are starting from such a low base as we have been trawling in over the past few years. We don't have to do a real lot to make a quantum improvement. Things like know our basic game plan. Have the fitness to run both ways. Have big enough bodies to compete to get the ball. Basic understanding of where to position yourself on the field. Basic understanding of the game to be able to anticipate where the opposition are likely to kick the ball rather than waiting for it to be kicked and then chase after it and hope to hit the contest. Have a basic structure of competitive players in every position rather than having gaping holes with no competitive players. Like our forward line over the pre Jesse era. 

We have already seen plenty of these things appear over the preseason. It's not overnight. They've been building since Roosy arrived but now the full package to whatever standard that is at present, is ready. Who knows what it'll translate to in wins.  But it is clearly better footy. And there's a lot more depth of talented, knowledgeable, adequately conditioned, skilled players. 

[Thehardtackler 785]

Alex Neal Bulleen kicked 3 goals in his first AFL game against Geelong. He has the  makings of an excellent player and we will persevere with him. We will also give Viv Michieva chance to prove himself as he should get upgraded to the Senior list soon.

[Slartibartfast 17,279]

46 minutes ago, P-man said:

I understand that to a degree, but as IT mentions, some key attributes we have seen is his ability win his own ball and an ability to read the play, get into good positions etc.

i don't think it's a matter of saying whether he will or won't become a good player. I'm certainly not saying he WILL. I just think it's far too early to be making a judgement on how well his abilities will translate to AFL level.

I comes down to what we were discussing earlier about evaluating a player over the journey.  At the moment I don't think ANB will make it.  I didn't think Brayshaw was as good as many thought in his early games but what I saw midseason was fantastic.  The Watts discussion has been as much about current performance v attributes and what those attributes could bring.  

 

[Its Time for Another 4,217]

1 hour ago, praha said:

"2003 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2009 recruiting creating a dynasty"

"2010 recruiting creating a dynasty"

Must you.  

Don't agree with thinking any of those years were going to create dynasties.

2009 I'll get to but I'd argue 2008 looked more like a dynasty maker and we know how that worked out.

2008

Draft

Watts, Blease Strauss Jamie Bennell Nev Jetta Rohan Bail

Pre Season

Liam Jurrah Chris Johnson 

Rookie (Interestingly there were 74 rookies picked that year)

Jordie McKenzie Rhys Healey (Anyone ever heard of him) Daniel Hughes

2009

(Except for the first two I wouldn't say any expectations of a dynasty from this bunch)

Scully = Jesse Hogan (In the Club's words at the time. "A player you can build a team around."

Trengove = who knows, but signs are very promising that he could come back to his best. Hey, why not be optimistic until proved otherwise.

Gysberts never understood this pick at the time and since. Not going to go into who we could have had instead.

Tapscott also didn't understand this pick at the time. 

Max Gawn. Say no more now but speculative at the time.

Jack Fitzpatrick (Highly speculative bust)

Joel McDonald (Pre season draft-No expectations at the time)

John Meesen (Rookie draft - very low expectaions

Edited March 15, 2016 by It's Time

[ChaserJ 5,096]

8 hours ago, dee-luded said:

 

 

well,,, we started creating a Dynasty in 2008 when we started recruiting early draft picks & proceeded to gift them games & tell them just how good they were about to be.   that really worked well.

 

..........  lets not start pumping up tyres like this again... we might endup having a blowout along the road.

If nothing else, I think the club learned a lot about what not to do when building a list from the Prendergast years.

Had to learn in the hardest way possible, but looks like we've learned.