WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB - CLAYTON OLIVER

[DEE fence 4,922]

1 hour ago, Dappa Dan said:

 I don't wanna be glass half empty, but I think it's pretty much what we see now. He's taken the criticism and I think doubled his metres gained this year.

So I think it is the metres gained that will go up further over two years (so yes improvement still to be had IMHO), I also think his team mates will learn to play better to him, so to speak, (and I already think that is an improvement this year), so the question/observation will be, is he better, his team mates better, or has he made his team mates better (my pick) 

 

BTW did anyone notice that Brayshaw is doing the over the head handpass now (did it in the 4th Qtr I think) , straight out of Olivers playbook.

[Skuit 9,927]

Think it was the very start of the second half. Oliver simply willed himself to shake his opponent and get the ball in consecutive contests and it resulted in a goal in the first minute or so. Once he becomes fully aware and confident of his ability to influence proceedings he will be in in Dangerfield and Dusty territory - and at an age where he can eclipse them to become the league's best player soon after.

As supporters we're both biased and blinded. But he's the greatest young phenomenon in the middle I've seen.

[Wells 11 5,264]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Think it was the very start of the second half. Oliver simply willed himself to shake his opponent and get the ball in consecutive contests and it resulted in a goal in the first minute or so. Once he becomes fully aware and confident of his ability to influence proceedings he will be in in Dangerfield and Dusty territory - and at an age where he can eclipse them to become the league's best player soon after.

As supporters we're both biased and blinded. But he's the greatest young phenomenon in the middle I've seen.

Agreed. It’s a big statement fr someone so early in his career but I reckon He is to clearance players what flower was to wingmen or Schwartz was to centre half forwards. Different level to mere mortals. 

[jnrmac 19,890]

Seems to get involved in a scragging contest at every centre bounce now. Not happy with that...

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

11 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

I can go back to the '70's. Most of the best midfielders I've seen for us are wingers. Flower, Johnson, Alves & Tingay chief among them. To use an old term the best centreman / ruck rover types (which is the category I put Oliver in for the purpose of comparison)  are IMO Viney and for a couple of years Brian Wilson. Better than both of them was Greg Wells. You can argue that he hasn't gone past those three yet but we are reflecting on their careers and he's played just over 50 games. I believe that by the time he chalks up 100, the question won't need asking. He'll be a mile in front

The Jedi reference is good - even as recently as the last 3 weeks he's done something in each game that's left me gobsmacked. His ball control at pace is unbelievable

Yeah exactly, if you try to cram other names into the conversation, there's always caveats. Scott Thompson should absolutely be in there, but he left. Certain players are outside and he's inside. Certain players played what amounts to a different sport... So I understand there's a problem with oversimplification there when you ask "who's the best midfielder in your lifetime."

Thing is... As you say, on pace, he'll have them all beaten very soon. I think I posed this question 21 games ago for the first time when he rounded out his second season, and in that time I expected people to throw restrictions on the question, or categories... and it's actually gone the other way. Now I'm wondering if he's the best PLAYER we've seen in our lifetimes. Never mind this midfielder stuff.

I was 7 in 1987 so never really got the Robbie Flower experience that our long-in-the-tooth friends on here did. THESE are the guys I wanna hear from. What would Clarry have to do to get into the Flower/Oliver conversation? I sometimes ask a similar question about Mitch Johnson's ashes series and push them on a comparison between that series and how Lillee played. How close were they, who was scarier, who was faster etc etc... And it's that sort of level of comparison. I can't make the comparison, so I look to my elders.

The Jedi thing. Mate... it's not one a week. It's many of the contests he goes to. There's the thing a player like Braysh does where he barrels through and by force of will releases a loose ball. With Oliver, my best guess is that as a kid he had a coach who told him to set up at a clearance and look closely at where your opposition is... then if the ball falls to you (and it does, cos of Max), get it as soon as you can and release as soon as you can in the direction that those oppo players AREN'T. It's like watching Vader predict where the lasers are going to be before he light-sabers them away. And it's not just one massive play. He does something freaky at 5-10 contests a game.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Dappa Dan

[Deestar9 1,548]

13 minutes ago, SFebes said:

Don't know where to put it, so will just add here.

I still worry about ANB ☹️

[SFebes 4,860]

1 minute ago, Deestar9 said:

I still worry about ANB ☹️

He's running at 63.8% DE for an outside runner, which isn't good enough IMO.

[faultydet 7,594]

8 hours ago, Skuit said:

Think it was the very start of the second half. Oliver simply willed himself to shake his opponent and get the ball in consecutive contests and it resulted in a goal in the first minute or so. Once he becomes fully aware and confident of his ability to influence proceedings he will be in in Dangerfield and Dusty territory - and at an age where he can eclipse them to become the league's best player soon after.

As supporters we're both biased and blinded. But he's the greatest young phenomenon in the middle I've seen.

If I had 10 attempts over 2 weeks of thinking time, I couldn't come up with anything better than this to describe the phenom that is Oliver.

That 3rd qtr effort was nothing short of Superstar.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

10 hours ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

So I think it is the metres gained that will go up further over two years (so yes improvement still to be had IMHO), I also think his team mates will learn to play better to him, so to speak, (and I already think that is an improvement this year), so the question/observation will be, is he better, his team mates better, or has he made his team mates better (my pick) 

 

BTW did anyone notice that Brayshaw is doing the over the head handpass now (did it in the 4th Qtr I think) , straight out of Olivers playbook.

Yeah that's a good point. I wonder if you can prepare a young list of midfielders for that. I don't even reckon the coaches knew what they had when he was recruited. I remember in Oliver's second pre-season the media were always asking who's the best of the big 3 young players who've come to the club... Oliver, Hogan and Tracca. You expect Hogan cos of everything he does and what he represents. But nearly everyone had Oliver out in front. I was confused as I hadn't seen enough. Almost 2 full seasons on... and I get it now.

So if he's only had 43 games playing at this level, how well can you know what he's going to do if you're a midfielder playing next to him? How do you coach the players around a freak like that to take advantage of the absurd Jedi-like things he does?

[Axis of Bob 11,145]

I love looking back at the draft videos of players once you have a broader perspective of their development.

I especially like Oliver’s because he was such a fatty!

[Dee Zephyr 19,145]

Oliver is human after all although you could argue he meant to get the ball to Hannan for a score involvement.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Dee Zephyr

[pineapple dee 2,892]

2 hours ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Oliver is human after all although you could argue he meant to get the ball to Hannan for a score involvement.

 

I think it's fairly clear that Olivers falling over ploy was a plan to get the ball to Harmes via 3 Melbourne players because he knew Harmes would kick the goal. 

Talk about forward planning!!!!  Whose mind works like that?? I'll tell you. No otherAFL player at all.

[Wells 11 5,264]

7 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

 

I was 7 in 1987 so never really got the Robbie Flower experience that our long-in-the-tooth friends on here did. THESE are the guys I wanna hear from. What would Clarry have to do to get into the Flower/Oliver conversation? I sometimes ask a similar question about Mitch Johnson's ashes series and push them on a comparison between that series and how Lillee played. How close were they, who was scarier, who was faster etc etc... And it's that sort of level of comparison. I can't make the comparison, so I look to my elders.

 

As good as 87 was, Robbie was past his best by then but, even so, still outstanding. No point comparing apples and oranges though. Robbie was imo peerless as a wingman...the best player Ive ever seen play the game. Still annoyed that the kangas Keith Greig won his two brownlows from the wing  in Robbies era. The advantages of being in a winning team I guess. 

Oliver is something super special.  I dont know if we've ever really had a player like him at the Dees in my time. I do know,  and this is similar to Robbie , watching him play I constantly wonder " what happened?"  or " how did he DO that?" When I watch replays I slow down some of his bits to try to understand. So that bit at the moment is def the same. Sometimes its just hard to believe what he does. 

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

45 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

As good as 87 was, Robbie was past his best by then but, even so, still outstanding. No point comparing apples and oranges though. Robbie was imo peerless as a wingman...the best player Ive ever seen play the game. Still annoyed that the kangas Keith Greig won his two brownlows from the wing  in Robbies era. The advantages of being in a winning team I guess. 

Oliver is something super special.  I dont know if we've ever really had a player like him at the Dees in my time. I do know,  and this is similar to Robbie , watching him play I constantly wonder " what happened?"  or " how did he DO that?" When I watch replays I slow down some of his bits to try to understand. So that bit at the moment is def the same. Sometimes its just hard to believe what he does. 

My feelings exactly. 

[daisycutter 29,291]

clarrie needs 35 disposals this week to end the home and away season on an average of 30 disposals per game

last year he missed the 30 mark by one disposal in his last game

[picket fence 16,632]

9 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

Yeah exactly, if you try to cram other names into the conversation, there's always caveats. Scott Thompson should absolutely be in there, but he left. Certain players are outside and he's inside. Certain players played what amounts to a different sport... So I understand there's a problem with oversimplification there when you ask "who's the best midfielder in your lifetime."

Thing is... As you say, on pace, he'll have them all beaten very soon. I think I posed this question 21 games ago for the first time when he rounded out his second season, and in that time I expected people to throw restrictions on the question, or categories... and it's actually gone the other way. Now I'm wondering if he's the best PLAYER we've seen in our lifetimes. Never mind this midfielder stuff.

I was 7 in 1987 so never really got the Robbie Flower experience that our long-in-the-tooth friends on here did. THESE are the guys I wanna hear from. What would Clarry have to do to get into the Flower/Oliver conversation? I sometimes ask a similar question about Mitch Johnson's ashes series and push them on a comparison between that series and how Lillee played. How close were they, who was scarier, who was faster etc etc... And it's that sort of level of comparison. I can't make the comparison, so I look to my elders.

The Jedi thing. Mate... it's not one a week. It's many of the contests he goes to. There's the thing a player like Braysh does where he barrels through and by force of will releases a loose ball. With Oliver, my best guess is that as a kid he had a coach who told him to set up at a clearance and look closely at where your opposition is... then if the ball falls to you (and it does, cos of Max), get it as soon as you can and release as soon as you can in the direction that those oppo players AREN'T. It's like watching Vader predict where the lasers are going to be before he light-sabers them away. And it's not just one massive play. He does something freaky at 5-10 contests a game.

Ok here goes

I watched them all...

On ballers , Wingers, Flankers, Rovers, and dare I say it Ruck Rovers

Hassa Mann

Paul Callery

Greg Wells 

Stan Alves

Steve Tingay

Glenn Lovett

Dyson, Powell, Bails, and many others 

And Rob...

Clarry has some Rob Flower characteristics and I'll say this .. some of his moves are very Robby Like in that you wonder how that hell he could conjur a play like that??

But Rob Flower was .. well Rob Flower, he was like Doctor Who and when he had or was about to get the ball he was like  the 

TARDIS 

TIME AND RELATIVE DIMENSIONS IN SPACE

Criminal that he A never won a Brownlow B  Never played in a Premiership Team

I'll tell you something else which I have seen in young Clayton..

He had a very self effacing nature. Very Humble nature and quick to acknowledge others and help when needed

Clarry shares a lot of Rob Flower in the way he plays, so too did Rob Murphy.

So for Clarry there is no greater accolade than that! 

Go father in lightness Young man!

Robby would approve and 

Greater gifts await!

Dappa,  I hope this gives you insight!

PF

Edited August 21, 2018 by picket fence

[praha 11,100]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

clarrie needs 35 disposals this week to end the home and away season on an average of 30 disposals per game

last year he missed the 30 mark by one disposal in his last game

Trade him.

[Allus Monk 568]

2 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

 

Oliver is something super special.  I dont know if we've ever really had a player like him at the Dees in my time. I do know,  and this is similar to Robbie , watching him play I constantly wonder " what happened?"  or " how did he DO that?" When I watch replays I slow down some of his bits to try to understand. So that bit at the moment is def the same. Sometimes its just hard to believe what he does. 

One under-rated aspect of Robbie’s game, and where he’s currently got Oliver covered , was his aerial skill. Unfortunately because Melbourne games rarely got TV coverage (and if they did 10 minutes of one-camera coverage) there’s only a few videos of a couple of famous Robbie high marks. But he took them most weeks, and many better than those on video. He was fearless and sublimely skillful overhead, winning contests he had no right to even get to.  Unfortunately this part of his game is not documented nearly well enough. Not a crash the contest beast, but a cat-like leap and balance. There’s not a player past or present that readily comes to mind to compare him to. 

[In Harmes Way 7,698]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

clarrie needs 35 disposals this week to end the home and away season on an average of 30 disposals per game

last year he missed the 30 mark by one disposal in his last game

So if he gets 36 possies dc he’ll have averaged 30 a game in the last two seasons. I think.

[In Harmes Way 7,698]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:44 AM, jnrmac said:

 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

On 10/26/2015 at 9:29 PM, Little Goffy said:

There's just something in those highlights that made me think he wasn't as aware of his teammates as an onballer needs to be at AFL-intensity.

Good call.

[jnrmac 19,890]

21 minutes ago, small but forward said:

 

Still my fav piece of Clarrie action!

[monoccular 17,305]

On 10/26/2015 at 8:00 PM, olisik said:

We missed Ollie Wines, let's not make the same mistake.

 

Imagine this kid in the centre square, will cause explosions with Viney for the next 10 years. Much better prospect then Curnow in my opinion. By far

Haven’t seen those clips since before he debuted

I must say I thought that it must have been very highly edited but seriously one sees most of that in every game he plays now.

A truly amazing phenomenon,  and best of all, a DEMON!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

Dappa,  I hope this gives you insight!

PF

Terrific stuff Pickett. A bit of mayo thrown in there with the wording too, I like it. But I STILL have the urge to put the gun-to-your-head question... I'll hold off for now though.

4 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

No point comparing apples and oranges though. Robbie was imo peerless as a wingman...the best player Ive ever seen play the game. 

Oliver is something super special.  I dont know if we've ever really had a player like him at the Dees in my time.

OH YES THERE IS! lol

Like Pickett, I'll be putting that question to you if we all live long enough to see Clarrie retire in the Red and Blue one day and get to take stock.

You've more or less answered it for now. Robbie the best you've ever seen play the game? Says enough.

And yes, great point on Ollie. If we want to break down players into types... Neitz is still the #1 KP forward. Hogan isn't there yet, and I suspect won't get there. Schwartz would have beaten Neitz by a nose... enough's been said on that topic. What Ollie does, though... Here's yet another way to look at it... You know how we're a poor club, and other clubs get these logic-defying players... Voss, Hird, Sam Mitchell, Ablett jr, Dangerfield, Fyfe... These absolute magicians that play the game in a way you don't really understand... Watching those guys as an opposition fan, you never really knew what it was like to be a fan of their club. We had so many stalwarts. Proud players who did more than I'll ever do... But we never had anything like this. And it's not a one-off year for him, or a short burst of brilliance. The whole league has taken notice inside of 50 games. Elite really isn't a big enough word. Some of the stuff he does... No-one else in the league does. You're absolutely right... If you really feel every possession that MFC gets, then watching him is a kind of joy none of us have ever known, other than when watching other club's players with a healthy dose of envy.

[deanox 9,641]

15 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Seems to get involved in a scragging contest at every centre bounce now. Not happy with that...

I noticed that and was annoyed on Sunday but then I realized he was doing it to try and gain separation a moment later. It might not work every time but he seemed to engage in a scrag, causing his opponent to stop watching the ball, then use that moment to push off his opponent or nudge his opponent under the back and turn back himself. It didn't work even the back dropped in front of him because then he wasn't able to push off.

So might be atactic.  Might also just be poor behavior.