THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[daisycutter 28,603]

the statement was made that CAS would enforce a rule eliminating Essendon from the competition. That statement was false. Given the statement was made by someone who appears to believe they are an expert with inside information, do you find that odd?

Additionally, WADA don't "decide to swing" any big hammer. They abide by the legislation, which is the AFL anti doping code. If they are successful, the penalties are enforced by agreement as per any international treaty. WADA put thier case, that's it. No "getting nasty" - that's just complete fiction sorry.

Glad to be back.

don't sweat it lance

no-one here really thinks wada will eliminate essendon from the competition even if they did have the provision to do so

nor do i think anyone here REALLY wants to see that

[sue 8,451]

unfortunately Sue I think you'll find all clubs push the boundaries to get an edge. EFC is not the only club that injects experimental substances. AFL clubs have a long tradition of this sort of thing and other innovations. Clearly it went badly wrong at EFC regardless of the result but I'm sorry I think that moral black and white view is not realistic

Unfortunately Lance I don't think the 'fact' that other clubs may have done something similar cuts any ice with many of us. That does not turn black into grey (or even white as the EFC propaganda machine would want us to believe.)

If any club injects experimental substances, the people responsible should be in deep trouble. Players should not be guinea pigs even if they volunteer unless the experiment is subject to the same constraints that would face a team of medical researchers in a university.

[jnrmac 19,077]

if it's found out my club cheated I'll blame those responsible, including the coach

no it's not. The WADA code and the AFL Anti Doping Code are very similar, almost identical. The reason for that is that the AFL anti doping code IS the wada code as it pertains to AFL footy.

You can take this to bank my friend. The CAS hearing will be heard according to the AFL anti doping code. Which is the version of the wada code signed off on by the AFL and, you guessed it, wada

Wouldn't have thought so. FOr a start we have the 3 strikes policy.

Next......

[rjay 23,927]

other clubs innovate. Melbourne Football club themselves (or their doctor at least) explored Dank.

EFC clearly went beyond what other clubs did, and as a result have suffered substantialy. If it is found they did cheat, the players must be punished appropriately, of course.

Yes they do 'Lance' but this is not what you said. You gilded the lily substantially here, to quote you "EFC is not the only club that injects experimental substances. AFL clubs have a long tradition of this sort of thing and other innovations."

...and prescribing the rubbing a lotion on someones foot is a little different than injecting unknown substances.

I'm with 'sue' on this one and the point is inarguable. The club/employees injected unknown substances into their players, surely as a member this is not only inappropriate but improper.

Edited June 5, 2015 by rjay

[Willmoy1947 3,790]

USADA's case against Armstrong makes for interesting reading and implies that that body wanted him along with complicit cronies out of the way.

They got their wish and WADA and CAS by hook or by crook (and I don't care either) will get theirs.

[Dees2014 2,377]

the statement was made that CAS would enforce a rule eliminating Essendon from the competition. That statement was false. Given the statement was made by someone who appears to believe they are an expert with inside information, do you find that odd?

Additionally, WADA don't "decide to swing" any big hammer. They abide by the legislation, which is the AFL anti doping code. If they are successful, the penalties are enforced by agreement as per any international treaty. WADA put thier case, that's it. No "getting nasty" - that's just complete fiction sorry.

Glad to be back.

Lance , if you come back can you at least quote others accurately. Your whole premise is to distort and lie just like your God James Hird does. The WADA rules are very clear (they are not CAS rules by the way - it is a WADA code they are upholding) that if two Essendon players are rubbed out then the whole team can be rubbed out. I for one do not want to see this as I know what effect it would have on the AFL competition, but it is WADA's duty to uphold the drugs code in sport and frankly under Swiss Law you are cooked. It is all your own doing, a direct result of the hero worship and blind adherence to a flawed and cheating individual in James Hird.

As much as I do not want to see the AFL competition harmed - there is a greater justice here, to keep world team sports clean, and free of drug cheats. I have no doubt WADA sees it the same way, and if the AFL needs to take a hit for this principal to be maintained, then so be it.

[Cards13 9,117]

don't sweat it lance

no-one here really thinks wada will eliminate essendon from the competition even if they did have the provision to do so

nor do i think anyone here REALLY wants to see that

If they are found to have breached the rules and the rules allow for them to be banned them so be it. The comp, the "game" will go on and miss 0 beats. No club is that important. A tiny foot note in history.

[Cards13 9,117]

Lance , if you come back can you at least quote others accurately. Your whole premise is to distort and lie just like your God James Hird does. The WADA rules are very clear (they are not CAS rules by the way - it is a WADA code they are upholding) that if two Essendon players are rubbed out then the whole team can be rubbed out. I for one do not want to see this as I know what effect it would have on the AFL competition, but it is WADA's duty to uphold the drugs code in sport and frankly under Swiss Law you are cooked. It is all your own doing, a direct result of the hero worship and blind adherence to a flawed and cheating individual in James Hird.

As much as I do not want to see the AFL competition harmed - there is a greater justice here, to keep world team sports clean, and free of drug cheats. I have no doubt WADA sees it the same way, and if the AFL needs to take a hit for this principal to be maintained, then so be it.

Dees massive over statement if one club is booted from the comp I think. Look to the NFL, NBA, NHL, teams come and go the comp goes on. Bigger than Dons or the Blues or Tiges. Another club will replace it.

[Fork 'em 6,527]

don't sweat it lance

no-one here really thinks wada will eliminate essendon from the competition even if they did have the provision to do so

nor do i think anyone here REALLY wants to see that

Aww dunno DC .......

I'd love to see the arrogant plicks forked off.

[Its Time for Another 4,054]

I would have thought this would be next to impossible in Switzerland.

If a witness says they are not appearing WADA would then have to apply for extradition to the Federal government.

These things take forever and are not always granted.

Now I am not an expert but I would have thought that if no crime has been committed in Switzerland on what basis would WADA have to ask the Australian Government to extradite people there?

OD you are quite right plus I'm pretty confidant Australia doesn't have an extradition treaty with Switzerland anyway. However WADA don't have to do this as they can subpoena them and if they fail to turn up they would have committed a criminal offence with jail terms. They would be put on an Interpol watch list and arrested anywhere in Europe and other countries with extradition treaties with Switzerland. They couldn't go to the States as this would create a criminal record.

CAS has already indicated evidence can be given by video link so they don't have to physically travel there.

All in all that is a lot of reasons for them to give evidence if they are subpoenaed.

[Lance Uppercut 10]

Wouldn't have thought so. FOr a start we have the 3 strikes policy.

Next......

Come on mate, please don't confuse an independent illicit drugs policy with the WADA code...

[Lance Uppercut 10]

Lance , if you come back can you at least quote others accurately. Your whole premise is to distort and lie just like your God James Hird does. The WADA rules are very clear (they are not CAS rules by the way - it is a WADA code they are upholding) that if two Essendon players are rubbed out then the whole team can be rubbed out. I for one do not want to see this as I know what effect it would have on the AFL competition, but it is WADA's duty to uphold the drugs code in sport and frankly under Swiss Law you are cooked. It is all your own doing, a direct result of the hero worship and blind adherence to a flawed and cheating individual in James Hird.

As much as I do not want to see the AFL competition harmed - there is a greater justice here, to keep world team sports clean, and free of drug cheats. I have no doubt WADA sees it the same way, and if the AFL needs to take a hit for this principal to be maintained, then so be it.

This is a great example of your actual ignorance. Read the WADA code! It explicitly cedes any power to level team based penalties to the governing body!! What you're claiming is impossible. Come on, quite the actual "wada rule" you believe substantiates your claim. Please. Actual wada code.

Additionally, I have quotes CAS rules in black and white which proved Swiss law does NOT apply. You are utterly wrong again. Read what I've quoted. Direct from CAS. Where is your "proof" for your claim? Rhetorical question by the way, because again you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

I invite you to provide proof of your claims and back them up like I have mine. Please

[Chris 2,892]

This is a great example of your actual ignorance. Read the WADA code! It explicitly cedes any power to level team based penalties to the governing body!! What you're claiming is impossible. Come on, quite the actual "wada rule" you believe substantiates your claim. Please. Actual wada code.

Additionally, I have quotes CAS rules in black and white which proved Swiss law does NOT apply. You are utterly wrong again. Read what I've quoted. Direct from CAS. Where is your "proof" for your claim? Rhetorical question by the way, because again you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

I invite you to provide proof of your claims and back them up like I have mine. Please

Have a read of a recent social litigator post. It will put doubt in your mind as to which law applies. My take on it, from this blog by an actual lawyer, is that it will end up being Swiss law, it is still somewhat up in the air though.

[rjay 23,927]

Still haven't answered the question 'Lance'.."EFC is not the only club that injects experimental substances. AFL clubs have a long tradition of this sort of thing and other innovations."

Where is your evidence?

[beelzebub 22,225]

Have a read of a recent social litigator post. It will put doubt in your mind as to which law applies. My take on it, from this blog by an actual lawyer, is that it will end up being Swiss law, it is still somewhat up in the air though.

That is my understanding also. The rules are the same as the AFL tribunal in effect. WADA appeals to CAS invariably revoke back to applicable WADA code as that is in effect the parent code for the applicable signatories of any other sport coming in under the world umbrella. Switzerland and Australia have mutual conventions in respect of Law and the Home ground will trump should an impasse occur. CAS can and will ask the Swiss courts to Subpoena who or what and will then enact these conventions which trigger our courts to act on their behalf as they are able under oyr own laws. Anyone thinking they can hide under or behind a rock to evade fronting CAS is in for a rude shock. They don't even need to leave this shore.

[What 18,810]

Lance reminds me of the Russian governments cyber troll army that flood the comments section of major news sites to spread propaganda and attempt muddy the waters.

Its just that they are so easy to spot, and nobody buys anything they say.

[Chris 2,892]

That is my understanding also. The rules are the same as the AFL tribunal in effect. WADA appeals to CAS invariably revoke back to applicable WADA code as that is in effect the parent code for the applicable signatories of any other sport coming in under the world umbrella. Switzerland and Australia have mutual conventions in respect of Law and the Home ground will trump should an impasse occur. CAS can and will ask the Swiss courts to Subpoena who or what and will then enact these conventions which trigger our courts to act on their behalf as they are able under oyr own laws. Anyone thinking they can hide under or behind a rock to evade fronting CAS is in for a rude shock. They don't even need to leave this shore.

They is the hope with subpeona, but it may not work. The issue with the law used comes done to where the court is and where the charges were laid. The want of CAS to have it Switzerland is that they can then argue to have it heard under Swiss law, and they may well win. My understanding is that this is a basis of law, not just the code.

Where I think some get confused is the code that will be heard, it is still the AFL anti doping code that the hearing is based on. It is deciding on a breach of this code, not of the broader, but very similar WADA code. We may end up with a hearing about the Australian code being heard under Swiss law.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Dees massive over statement if one club is booted from the comp I think. Look to the NFL, NBA, NHL, teams come and go the comp goes on. Bigger than Dons or the Blues or Tiges. Another club will replace it.

The AFL is not the NFL where they have dozens of teams of first grade standard, and a wealthy population of nearly 400 million. We have 5% of that. You just need to see the massive investment needed to set up the Suns and Giants to understand how big a task it would be.

The biggest hit would be in Melbourne though where Essendon is in the top 4 clubs in terms of supporter base, much of it in the Western Suburbs where Soccer is getting stronger everyday. The game simply cannot afford to disillusion that many people.

I am not saying don't punish them - I think everyone responsible should be chucked out of the game for life and fined heavily, and all the players given at least 2 year suspension in line with the WADA code. This would ensure ESSENDON does at least 2 years purgatory, probably a lot longer. The eliminate them completely though I think would be counter productive for the game and a club like ours

[Lance Uppercut 10]

The AFL is not the NFL where they have dozens of teams of first grade standard, and a wealthy population of nearly 400 million. We have 5% of that. You just need to see the massive investment needed to set up the Suns and Giants to understand how big a task it would be.

The biggest hit would be in Melbourne though where Essendon is in the top 4 clubs in terms of supporter base, much of it in the Western Suburbs where Soccer is getting stronger everyday. The game simply cannot afford to disillusion that many people.

I am not saying don't punish them - I think everyone responsible should be chucked out of the game for life and fined heavily, and all the players given at least 2 year suspension in line with the WADA code. This would ensure ESSENDON does at least 2 years purgatory, probably a lot longer. The eliminate them completely though I think would be counter productive for the game and a club like ours

Earlier you claimed that CAS could enforce a rule to kick efc out of the comp. The wada code explicitly says this is impossible. Are you going to admit you were wrong?

What about your claim that mcdevitt never offered deals? Caroline Wilson says he did.

I always think it's worthwhile admitting when you're wrong. Good for the soul

[robbiefrom13 877]

Is AFL and footy bigger than club loyalty? What happened to Fitzroy supporters? South Melbourne? University? Sandy Bay? etc etc.

I'm thinking Vichy government: you compromise for survival, but it's no survival at all - it's ultimately total and shameful capitulation, and loss of far more than you ever dreamt was at stake. And the barstards swarm all over you - you save nothing, you are inexorably obliged to accept - and then transformed into behaving in the manner of, and ultimately defending (fighting the opponents of) - the power you submitted to. It doesn't stop.

I respect your posts no end, Dees2014, but I think differently on this point, and imagine that I am looking at a wider picture with ramifications beyond the legal and the maintaining of business-as-usual. Business-as-usual just isn't possible following Essendon's last three years, as I see it.

Edited June 6, 2015 by robbiefrom13

[beelzebub 22,225]

Robbie13 i tend to agree in the main. It cant come to the point where one transgressor can effectively hold all to ransom. " oh cant be rid of us lest all others suffer"

Whether footy or anything this cant be the case. You treat cancer by its eradication. Essendons original crime followed by its belligerent disregard for all is nothing if not a cancer on this sport let alone society in general.

If EFC falls it falls...if it morphs into newEfc ..so be it.

It amuses me so many apologists would hide behind technicalities never taking ownership of the deeds in question.

Spades are spades

[Willmoy1947 3,790]

Any club that would go to these extraordinary lengths to avoid guilt without any compunctions for millions of football followers, let alone peoples lives, deserves the lowest outcome.

[Uncle Fester 2,835]

other clubs innovate. Melbourne Football club themselves (or their doctor at least) explored Dank.

You can't prove that. we shredded everything and burnt all out hard drives. We're innocent.

[Wolfmother 182]

Still haven't answered the question 'Lance'.."EFC is not the only club that injects experimental substances. AFL clubs have a long tradition of this sort of thing and other innovations."

Where is your evidence?

This is already well covered and our supporters want to believe we were above board why others weren't

http://m.melbournefc.com.au/news/2013-04-18/response-to-730-report

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-18/text-messages-reveal-danks-demons-involvement/4637954

[Cards13 9,117]

The AFL is not the NFL where they have dozens of teams of first grade standard, and a wealthy population of nearly 400 million. We have 5% of that. You just need to see the massive investment needed to set up the Suns and Giants to understand how big a task it would be.

The biggest hit would be in Melbourne though where Essendon is in the top 4 clubs in terms of supporter base, much of it in the Western Suburbs where Soccer is getting stronger everyday. The game simply cannot afford to disillusion that many people.

I am not saying don't punish them - I think everyone responsible should be chucked out of the game for life and fined heavily, and all the players given at least 2 year suspension in line with the WADA code. This would ensure ESSENDON does at least 2 years purgatory, probably a lot longer. The eliminate them completely though I think would be counter productive for the game and a club like ours

Good points Dees but I still don't think one big club going would be the end of the world for the sport.