THE ESSENDON 34: ON TRIAL

[deanox 8,640]

I understand it goes something like this:

1. The AFL tribunal brings down their rulings at the end of the current hearings before it on the current infraction notices. During the hearings, ASADA will table their evidence, and the players will mount their defences. This is totally separate from the court case current being conducted by James Hird.

2. If either party disagrees with the verdict, they can appeal, but after it is all done, if WADA disagrees with the outcomes, they can take it to CAS in Switzerland. Based on the current evidence, they would be very likely to succeed in such an appeal, as they usually do.

Following these proceedings though, it is very likely there will be a Worksafe investigation into workpractices at ESSENDON under HIRD which could very likely result in severe penalties for those involved in admin including HIRD

Thanks for the info but that doesn't quite answer my question.

I am interested to know IF the current AFL Tribunal finds them guilty, and the players choose to appeal, can the players keep playing until the appeal is heard? I assume not - that the suspension will be in effect - however I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.

[rjay 23,925]

Thanks for the info but that doesn't quite answer my question.

I am interested to know IF the current AFL Tribunal finds them guilty, and the players choose to appeal, can the players keep playing until the appeal is heard? I assume not - that the suspension will be in effect - however I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.

That's a good question, I was wondering the same.

[deanox 8,640]

That's a good question, I was wondering the same.

My understanding is they are technically suspended now BUT they are still training at the club AND some have played in the international rules series. Surely the IR matches at the least mean that provisional suspension cannot be considered in place before those matches.

Similarly, their first NAB cup game is March 6, I assume they'll have the Tribunal findings by then but if not and they play, surely the start date resets.

Edit: in short, I'd like to know if Essendon will be able to keep stalling the process through appeals etc or if we are now at that critical point.

Edited December 27, 2014 by deanox

[Dees2014 2,377]

If this investigation hasn't already been going on for two years then something is very rotten in the State of Denmark. The Doctors and Directors should have the book thrown at them. Fined heavily if not incarceration. I wld go to jail if I 'forced' one of my workers to take injections not approved for human use. WTF are they waiting for???

I suggest writing to your local member and asking them. I have,

Totally disagree. Worksafe will wait for the process to complete, there is nothing in it for them to replicate ASADA & WADA investigations. They will use them to achieve their prosecurions as they should do. We have to be patient, the process will get Hird and his sociopathic crew.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Thanks for the info but that doesn't quite answer my question.

I am interested to know IF the current AFL Tribunal finds them guilty, and the players choose to appeal, can the players keep playing until the appeal is heard? I assume not - that the suspension will be in effect - however I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.

If they are found guilty at the tribunal, then in my understanding they would normally be rubbed out immediately from any further participation in AFL although based on the decision for the International Rules game, then the AFL may choose not enforce it.

I have no doubt this sort of action by the EFC and the AFL would heavily influence WADA taking action in COS in Geneva. It would simply indicate that the AFL are not really serious about penalties in this case.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Dees2014

[jnrmac 19,057]

Totally disagree. Worksafe will wait for the process to complete, there is nothing in it for them to replicate ASADA & WADA investigations. They will use them to achieve their prosecurions as they should do. We have to be patient, the process will get Hird and his sociopathic crew.

If this the situation it is a [censored] unbelievable disgrace, Like the police saying 'we will investigate the bank robbery after the bank has done their internal investigation'. Could not possibly be the case.

The evidence might be tainted, they could have missed a lot of information. In a real stretch of the imagination people could die,

Edited December 27, 2014 by jnrmac

[bing181 8,169]

Thanks for the info but that doesn't quite answer my question.

I am interested to know IF the current AFL Tribunal finds them guilty, and the players choose to appeal, can the players keep playing until the appeal is heard? I assume not - that the suspension will be in effect - however I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.

My understanding is that if at the end of the trial they're suspended, they remain suspended (i.e. ineligible) during the appeal process (as with other sports). This from the AFL doping code:

"Decisions made under this Code may be appealed as set out below. Such decisions shall remain in effect while under appeal unless CAS or the Appeals Board orders otherwise."

[M_9 1,692]

My understanding is they are technically suspended now BUT they are still training at the club AND some have played in the international rules series. Surely the IR matches at the least mean that provisional suspension cannot be considered in place before those matches.

Similarly, their first NAB cup game is March 6, I assume they'll have the Tribunal findings by then but if not and they play, surely the start date resets.

Edit: in short, I'd like to know if Essendon will be able to keep stalling the process through appeals etc or if we are now at that critical point.

From page 30 of the AFl Anti-doping Code: 'If a Player voluntarily accepts a Provisional Suspension in writing from the AFL and thereafter refrains from competing, the Player shall receive a credit for such period of voluntary Provisional Suspension against any period of Ineligibility which may ultimately be imposed.'

So I'd take that to mean that if a player chose to compete in the pre-season comp and were subsequently found guilty they could not backdate their period of suspension as a 'non competitor' might.

[Dees2014 2,377]

If this the situation it is a [censored] unbelievable disgrace, Like the police saying 'we will investigate the bank robbery after the bank has done their internal investigation'. Could not possibly be the case.

The evidence might be tainted, they could have missed a lot of information. In a real stretch of the imagination people could die,

I suggest you look at the myriad of cases around the world WADA and its affiliates have been associated with if you don't believe it.

I am constantly amazed on this site (though I shouldn't be I know) that there seems to be a naivety about the economics of this process. There is no bottomless pit when it comes to legal investigations (unless you are James and Tania Hird, and Essendon).

WADA and their affiliates like ASADA and USADA will conduct investigations as thoroughly as possible, but also as cost effectively as possible. They do not have limitless resources, unlike some of the people they investigate. Isn't it logical therefore that they take the evidence gathered by trusted authorities, and use this to build a case against the accused. This is clearly the case for Essendon. It will therefore take time.

Hird and his gang constantly throw at ASADA how long they take to try and discredit them, while at the same time doing everything possible to slow up the processes in the courts, but it won't wash. They will get them in the end.

[Dees2014 2,377]

From page 30 of the AFl Anti-doping Code: 'If a Player voluntarily accepts a Provisional Suspension in writing from the AFL and thereafter refrains from competing, the Player shall receive a credit for such period of voluntary Provisional Suspension against any period of Ineligibility which may ultimately be imposed.'

So I'd take that to mean that if a player chose to compete in the pre-season comp and were subsequently found guilty they could not backdate their period of suspension as a 'non competitor' might.

This might be AFL rules, but it won't wash with WADA. I know people will instance the NRL, but this was a very different case, and even then WADA were [censored] off about it.

ESSENDON Is a much clearer case of seeking to cheat through drug taking over an extended period. They will not get off. And neither should they.

[felixdacat 459]

My understanding is they are technically suspended now BUT they are still training at the club AND some have played in the international rules series. Surely the IR matches at the least mean that provisional suspension cannot be considered in place before those matches.

Similarly, their first NAB cup game is March 6, I assume they'll have the Tribunal findings by then but if not and they play, surely the start date resets.

Edit: in short, I'd like to know if Essendon will be able to keep stalling the process through appeals etc or if we are now at that critical point.

I understand that the players can appeal the decision handed down by the current tribunal once with the AFL. They also can appeal to the CAS also but after that no more. I also beleive that only the players, AFL, ASADA and WADA can appeal to the CAS. Essendon the club can not appeal any decision itself as the ADV is against the individual and not the club,

[jnrmac 19,057]

I suggest you look at the myriad of cases around the world WADA and its affiliates have been associated with if you don't believe it.

I am constantly amazed on this site (though I shouldn't be I know) that there seems to be a naivety about the economics of this process. There is no bottomless pit when it comes to legal investigations (unless you are James and Tania Hird, and Essendon).

WADA and their affiliates like ASADA and USADA will conduct investigations as thoroughly as possible, but also as cost effectively as possible. They do not have limitless resources, unlike some of the people they investigate. Isn't it logical therefore that they take the evidence gathered by trusted authorities, and use this to build a case against the accused. This is clearly the case for Essendon. It will therefore take time.

Hird and his gang constantly throw at ASADA how long they take to try and discredit them, while at the same time doing everything possible to slow up the processes in the courts, but it won't wash. They will get them in the end.

I just don't believe that is how WorkSafe Victoria operates. And nor should it. They might use evidence collected elsewhere but to completely outsource an investigation is in breach of its charter and dereliction of its duty.

[hoopla 418]

I just don't believe that is how WorkSafe Victoria operates. And nor should it. They might use evidence collected elsewhere but to completely outsource an investigation is in breach of its charter and dereliction of its duty.

There is a difference between outsourcing an investigation and following information trails laid by others.

I presume the reason WorkSafe haven't acted already is not that they are waiting to collect evidence from the court- but because any action they take would be seen to prejudice the ASADA case. As they do not need to establish that specifically identifiable illegal substances were involved - I'm not sure that any WorkSafe statements would be prejudicial - but I guess Little Hird's lawyers would argue that they were.

We've waited this long - I guess we can wait a bit longer!

[jnrmac 19,057]

There is a difference between outsourcing an investigation and following information trails laid by others.

I presume the reason WorkSafe haven't acted already is not that they are waiting to collect evidence from the court- but because any action they take would be seen to prejudice the ASADA case. As they do not need to establish that specifically identifiable illegal substances were involved - I'm not sure that any WorkSafe statements would be prejudicial - but I guess Little Hird's lawyers would argue that they were.

We've waited this long - I guess we can wait a bit longer!

Look its pretty simple IMO. The parties involved in this have different charters and different terms of reference and investigative powers. To let someone else investigate and rely on that is simply a dereliction of duty. Who knows what ASADA, the AFL, Worksafe and the AFP for that matter are each interested in. They have different agendas and powers.

It is simply not possible for them to rely on one another. Sure, they mohght use information gathered by another party bit they are required to conduct their own investigations for a good reason.

If it is true that worksafe Vic are waiting for others to finish its a disgrace.

[Dees2014 2,377]

There is a difference between outsourcing an investigation and following information trails laid by others.

I presume the reason WorkSafe haven't acted already is not that they are waiting to collect evidence from the court- but because any action they take would be seen to prejudice the ASADA case. As they do not need to establish that specifically identifiable illegal substances were involved - I'm not sure that any WorkSafe statements would be prejudicial - but I guess Little Hird's lawyers would argue that they were.

We've waited this long - I guess we can wait a bit longer!

Strongly agree. Worksafe is behaving very astutely IMHO. They will come in with a killer blow when all the grandstanding has been exhausted. I am constantly amazed from the comments on here how people constantly look for conspiracy theorist behaviours from official bodies. Mostly they have behaved with considerable integrity, unlike the conspiratorial hird crowd. The contrast is considerable.

[Melbman2 226]

Strongly agree. Worksafe is behaving very astutely IMHO. They will come in with a killer blow when all the grandstanding has been exhausted. I am constantly amazed from the comments on here how people constantly look for conspiracy theorist behaviours from official bodies. Mostly they have behaved with considerable integrity, unlike the conspiratorial hird crowd. The contrast is considerable.

Does anyone know if Worksafe has performed a site inspection of Essendon to see if the site is now "up to standard"?

One would think they must have performed at least this function.

[jnrmac 19,057]

Strongly agree. Worksafe is behaving very astutely IMHO. They will come in with a killer blow when all the grandstanding has been exhausted. I am constantly amazed from the comments on here how people constantly look for conspiracy theorist behaviours from official bodies. Mostly they have behaved with considerable integrity, unlike the conspiratorial hird crowd. The contrast is considerable.

Not sure who here you are accusing of suggesting there is a conspiracy from the authorities. Haven't seen anyone do that. I fully agree with your statement about the integrity of the authorities so far as we know.

But its not astute to wait till everyone else has finished investigating. Its dumb and against their charter. That said we don't actually know what WS has done other than confirm publicly they started investigating some 7 months after the story first broke.

[felixdacat 459]

Mods do you think that EFC vs Worksafe warrants its own thread?

[Dees2014 2,377]

Not sure who here you are accusing of suggesting there is a conspiracy from the authorities. Haven't seen anyone do that. I fully agree with your statement about the integrity of the authorities so far as we know.

But its not astute to wait till everyone else has finished investigating. Its dumb and against their charter. That said we don't actually know what WS has done other than confirm publicly they started investigating some 7 months after the story first broke.

And that is the point. They have been very discrete apart from time to time reaffirming their charter which is to prosecute unsafe work practices and to outline the severe penalties which are proclaimed in the Act. These to me anyway, always seem to coincide with some of the most outrageous claims made by the Hird PR machine by his tame journalists. You cannot but wonder what the coincidence is. For me they are making a very strong point: that is when the time is right they will act under the statute, and act decisively. That I think is why ESSENDON and Hird have been so uncompromising, because they know full well what is in front of them should they be found guilty by Worksafe. You hate to think what barbarity might go on in Barwon Prison should James be locked up alone and friendless.

It explains a lot of his seemingly irrational actions.

[deefrag 277]

And that is the point. They have been very discrete apart from time to time reaffirming their charter which is to prosecute unsafe work practices and to outline the severe penalties which are proclaimed in the Act. These to me anyway, always seem to coincide with some of the most outrageous claims made by the Hird PR machine by his tame journalists. You cannot but wonder what the coincidence is. For me they are making a very strong point: that is when the time is right they will act under the statute, and act decisively. That I think is why ESSENDON and Hird have been so uncompromising, because they know full well what is in front of them should they be found guilty by Worksafe. You hate to think what barbarity might go on in Barwon Prison should James be locked up alone and friendless.

It explains a lot of his seemingly irrational actions.

I would expect Barwon to be full to the brim with Dons supporters!!

[biggestred 4,317]

ill tell you what - if it turns out hirdy has been as negligent as we all think, and is proven so in court (Ie worksafe or the CAS), hirdy will find himself absolutely friendless. cant imagine any essendon fans with any power supporting him in any way.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,487]

Met an AFL Regional Manager two weeks ago. Said the payout figure for Hird (to sack him) was $6 mil.

that's insanity

if true that would have to be a huge board mismanagement

They're idiots and deserve everything they get after re-signing him following his 12 month suspension. All I can say is they better not go crying poor to the AFL after this is all said and done.

[Crompton's the man 635]

Well said dees2014 and deefrag

Next to no chance that James would be entirely without admirers

But who, one may enquire, might accompany him on this grand adventure? ( be discreet)

[Dees2014 2,377]

I just don't believe that is how WorkSafe Victoria operates. And nor should it. They might use evidence collected elsewhere but to completely outsource an investigation is in breach of its charter and dereliction of its duty.

I'm not suggesting they would completely outsource their investigation. They operate under different rules and for different reasons than ASADA. What they will do though is to use the evidence gathered by ASADA to help build their case one way or other against ESSENDON and Hird on the issues of conducting and overseeing an unsafe workplace. They will also conduct their own enquiry which will use different methodologies than ASADA and will be a completely different exercise to the one conducted by ASADA. Even the internal EFC investigation stated they were conducting a "pharmacological experiment" (or words to that effect) on players. If that isn't an unsafe work environment I don't know what is. It also results in outcomes far more sinister for individuals than the ASADA investigation would do (fines, suspensions versus fines and jail terms), and also more specifically targets the management of organisations, particularly when it comes to penalties. .

It will be interesting to see whether the new Premier Daniel Andrews (a life long ESSENDON supporter and I think I am right in saying is current President/Chairman of the "Spring Street Bombers", a cross party parliamentary lobby/supporter group set this year by Paul Little in the Victorian parliament) will seek to influence a Victorian Worksafe investigation into this debacle.. No doubt Little and the AFL will be lobbying him hard to do so, and will be a very good test of his leadership.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Dees2014

[hoopla 418]

ill tell you what - if it turns out hirdy has been as negligent as we all think, and is proven so in court (Ie worksafe or the CAS), hirdy will find himself absolutely friendless. cant imagine any essendon fans with any power supporting him in any way.

Courtesy the EFC ( or is it Little Paul?) James has spent the last 12 months developing his international cv and his international business network. So he and Tania won't be completely sunk when their cred in this town disappears completely!

It will be interesting to see whether the new Premier Daniel Andrews (a life long ESSENDON supporter and I think I am right in saying is current President/Chairman of the "Spring Street Bombers", a cross party parliamentary lobby/supporter group set this year by Paul Little in the Victorian parliament) will seek to influence a Victorian Worksafe investigation into this debacle.. No doubt Little and the AFL will be lobbying him hard to do so, and will be a very good test of his leadership.

That's an in interesting pick up Dees 2104.

No wonder Little Paul has a reputation as a tough street fighter who isn't easily beaten. You've won the election Dan - suggest you resign as Chair of the " Spring Street Bombers" while you're ahead!