The Black List

[rpfc 27,545]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

[Thrice 216]

I like the premise RPFC. Malthouse and Clarkson have both said that you need 30 AFL Quality (Calibre in your terminology) players to be a realistic top 4 chance. We clearly have a way to go.

You've mentioned the middling teams. Have you done the analysis on where their lists sit? This will save me doing it over lunch and adding to the discussion for debate! An analysis of the top teams would no doubt have 30-odd in the AFL Calibre and few in the Not Good Enough Category, with most of the 'not there yets' in the Potential or More info (i.e. first year players / rookies) lists.

[Thrice 216]

_Collingwood:

_{ELITE MID: Pendlebury, Beams}

_{ROTATIONAL MID: Swan, Sidebottom, Ball, J Thomas, Macaffer, Blair, Young}

_{POSTIONAL ROLE PLAYERS: Grundy, Maxwell, Goldsack, Lumumba, Witts, Brown, White, Elliott, Reid, Williams, Cloke, Toovey, Langdon, Frost,}

_---

_{POTENTIAL: Fasolo, Dwyer, Kennedy, Adams, Keeffe, Sinclair, Seedsman}

_{NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Clarke, Lynch, Armstrong, Karnezis}

_{MORE INFO REQ: Broomhead, Ramsay, Scharenberg, Freeman, Oxley, Martin, Yagmoor, Gault, Mooney}

_{So the wash up is 23 AFL Calibre Players, including 2 of the top 20 and another couple in the top 50.}

_{Only 4 players that I'm calling not good enough, plus a healthy list of Potential Players and 2 top-10 picks in the "More Info Required" list.}

_{I'll tackle Hawthorn a bit later.}

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

[Go the Biff 3,171]

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

Maybe a "no longer good enough" category for Byrnes & Clark would suit you better. Mario Bortolotto has two premiership medals at home as well ! Doesn't mean he's currently "good enough". Byrnes is obviously past his peak.

[Coq au vin 754]

How many games would our firsts team win in the VFL?

[Thrice 216]

Hawthorn:

ELITE MID: Mitchell, Hodge,

ROTATIONAL MID: Lewis, Burgoyne, Hill, Sewell, Smith, Puopolo, Rioli,

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Roughead, Suckling, Gibson, McEvoy, Duryea, Whitecross, Cheney, Birchall, Lake, Gunston, Breust, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Shiels, Spangher,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Langford, Litherland, Simpkin, Hartung,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Hale (slightly controversial - but I believe the end is coming quick for him), Anderson, Garlett,

NOT ENOUGH INFO: O'Brien, Lowden, Kelly, Grimley, Hallanhan, Woodward, Sicily, Brand, Ross, Wanganeen, Willsmore, Webster, Heatherley, Tatupu

That's 26 AFL CALIBRE, and you'd be pretty confident in declaring the 4 potentials as the same. Only 3 Not Good Enoughs, but I'd suspect a few of the more info required players won't even get a chance to show their stuff at AFL level.

[Scipio 5,868]

How many games would our firsts team win in the VFL?

Our firsts team would obviously be dominant at VFL level, simply because the gap is huge and growing.

[old dee 22,930]

Pretty close to what I think RPFC.

My only criticism would be that you have been a little generous to M Jones

[rjay 23,937]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

I think you've approached this pretty well 'rp', might have a couple in different columns but the wash up is pretty right.

The middling teams you mentioned are all on the way up as well and it points to the need for further assistance if we are to be competitive in the short to medium term. If the AFL is serious about levelling up the competition then we would need at least 2 PP's this season, one tied to our position and another end of first round. We could then look at seriously trading in some talent without effecting the its balance and need to bring in future stars.

[rpfc 27,545]

Pretty close to what I think RPFC.

My only criticism would be that you have been a little generous to M Jones

His quickness and boldness just outweigh his skill issues, but I can understand the view that he is not good enough. I think that Mid Rotation was the group that fits him the best.

[rjay 23,937]

Pretty close to what I think RPFC.

My only criticism would be that you have been a little generous to M Jones

Thought long and hard about him too 'old dee', but he would probably be a decent depth player at one of the good clubs. He does work hard, get a bit of the ball and has a bit of pace. Trouble is with us he is just about a walk up start rather than depth.

A bit of a 50/50.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

Hawthorn:

ELITE MID: Mitchell, Hodge,

ROTATIONAL MID: Lewis, Burgoyne, Hill, Sewell, Smith, Puopolo, Rioli,

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Roughead, Suckling, Gibson, McEvoy, Duryea, Whitecross, Cheney, Birchall, Lake, Gunston, Breust, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Shiels, Spangher,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Langford, Litherland, Simpkin, Hartung,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Hale (slightly controversial - but I believe the end is coming quick for him), Anderson, Garlett,

NOT ENOUGH INFO: O'Brien, Lowden, Kelly, Grimley, Hallanhan, Woodward, Sicily, Brand, Ross, Wanganeen, Willsmore, Webster, Heatherley, Tatupu

That's 26 AFL CALIBRE, and you'd be pretty confident in declaring the 4 potentials as the same. Only 3 Not Good Enoughs, but I'd suspect a few of the more info required players won't even get a chance to show their stuff at AFL level.

Roughead - positional role player....highly amusing, Birchall.....even more...I am glad rpfc started this topic....

[rpfc 27,545]

Is it your opinion that the players are not AFL Calbre players, and what is your criteria for reaching this conclusion, number of games played, Brownlow votes, Demonland opinion, haircut? Byrnes has 2 premiership medals in his drawer at home, Clark has retired (just making up numbers), Fitzpatrick was being praised from the mountaintops at the end of last season on Demonland

Can we have a bit more meat?

Clark is retired and Byrnes about to be retired - for the prurposes of not having another group I put them there.

As for Fitzpatrick - I was never 'praising him from the mountain tops' and when some on here were saying he is better than Dawes my eyes were rolling and I was negatively judging their football knowledge.

And the meat is the thread - the discussion - it's not meant to be in one post.

Who do you disagree with?

[rjay 23,937]

Roughead - positional role player....highly amusing, Birchall.....even more...I am glad rpfc started this topic....

You need to read this properly 'Sat'...neither Roughead nor Birchall are elite mids. Roughead could be argued as a rotational mid.

So where would you put them?

Potential, not good enough or not enough info?

[Sir Why You Little 34,626]

Grimes is absolute borderline imo if we are to seriously rise.

But otherwise agree.

And i also knew Satyr would react as he did.

Highly amusing /)

[Deez 298]

You need to read this properly 'Sat'...neither Roughead nor Birchall are elite mids. Roughead could be argued as a rotational mid.

So where would you put them?

Potential, not good enough or not enough info?

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

[picket fence 15,322]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

I think you are overating Nathan Jones calling him an "Elite" mid! Very good yes, elite not yet!

Just my view!

[rjay 23,937]

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

That's what I'm saying.

[Deez 298]

yeh man, i got your back bro lol

[rjay 23,937]

Im not here to argue the positions, because its a good perspective of where the club is at. but regarding the whether or not roughhead or birchall are role players, they still contribute to hawthorns total number of afl calibre players, so it doesn't really matter what they're categorised as.

That's what I'm saying in answer to 'Sat', not arguing with 'rp' at all.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

Clark is retired and Byrnes about to be retired - for the prurposes of not having another group I put them there.

As for Fitzpatrick - I was never 'praising him from the mountain tops' and when some on here were saying he is better than Dawes my eyes were rolling and I was negatively judging their football knowledge.

And the meat is the thread - the discussion - it's not meant to be in one post.

Who do you disagree with?

It's your opinion, it is not about disagreeing with your opinion, I just have a different one on a couple........unfortunately it's just yet another topic for the recidivist bashers to spew forth their normal twaddle......

[praha 10,294]

I wouldn't call Jones an elite midfielder. If he were elite, we'd win more of the ball out of the middle.

Dangerfield is an elite midfielder.

Edited July 16, 2014 by praha

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

That's what I'm saying in answer to 'Sat', not arguing with 'rp' at all.

But it does if you have mixed categories, does this mean that players who are not positional role players, or mid rotation or elite, are necessarily not AFL calibre.......I would give you a perfect example, if we all saw Zac Dawson for the first time and knew nothing about him, most would be horrified, he is slow, can't kick, etc etc so most would say not AFL calibre but I bet Ross Lyon would disagree.........it is all relative, if you are on an AFL list you are an AFL calibre player.....another let's delist these spuds topic in another guise.....ho hum

Edited July 16, 2014 by Satyriconhome

[dee-luded 2,958]

Thought long and hard about him too 'old dee', but he would probably be a decent depth player at one of the good clubs. He does work hard, get a bit of the ball and has a bit of pace. Trouble is with us he is just about a walk up start rather than depth.

A bit of a 50/50.

at this stage MJ looks a bit of this & a bit of that... needs to pull himself up out of the blancmange. I sense he has it BUT. can he lift.