The Black List

[Thrice 216]

Sydney - Who Malthouse declared the best team he'd ever seen earlier this week. Let's see how that claim stacks up agains the RPFC test...

ELITE MID: Kennedy

MID ROTATION: McVeigh, Hannebery, O'Keefe (close to being past it and can't really get a game in their side), T Mitchell (and he's not even getting a game either), K Jack, McGlynn, Parker, Jetta

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Shaw, Tippett, Malceski, Laidler, Bird, Reid, Franklin, Rampe, T Richards, Goodes, Pyke, Smith, B Jack,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Cunningham, Z Jones, Rohan, Derickx, Johnson, Lloyd,

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: LRT,

MORE INFO REQUIRED: Nankervis, Walsh, Lockyer, Towers, Dick, Hewett, Marsh, Aliir, Robinson, Naismith, Perris, X Richards, P Mitchell, Biggs,

---

Surprisingly few in the AFL Calibre list, but the quality in there is such that the Potentials can come in and look like they belong. They also have a large number of untried players, which is testament to their culture of having to earn a game and not changing the team much from week-to-week. This is another where a number of the Positional Players would be considered Elite in their positions - Tippett, Malceski and Franklin. Only LRT is Not Good Enough (anymore - and that's purely by virtue of his age).

[A F 12,130]

Grimes is absolute borderline imo if we are to seriously rise.

But otherwise agree.

And i also knew Satyr would react as he did.

Highly amusing /)

I agree. I'd put Grimes and M Jones in the NOT GOOD ENOUGH category, otherwise I agree with the OP.

[jnrmac 11,849]

I wouldn't call Jones an elite midfielder. If he were elite, we'd win more of the ball out of the middle.

Dangerfield is an elite midfielder.

Aaah the old elite argument.....

[stevethemanjordan 6,951]

In conclusion, we have nowhere near enough AFL quality players on our list. Whether that's from drafting, development, leadership, extraterrestrial invasion of our list etc. Thats irrelevant.

It's plain to see from the examples of other lists that people have provided, we just don't have enough quality not depth.

And as you say RP, the ceiling for improvement is only so high when you adopt such a poor list. Another big injection at the end of the year will see us climb steadily. We've seen players respond and adhere to the Roos mantra. Get quality in and watch us grow.

Edited July 16, 2014 by stevethemanjordan

[Barney Rubble 1,575]

RPFC

We don't have any elite players.

Nate is good but not a match winner.

viney Tyson jkh Salem have potential

The rest are good average footballers at best.

If Chip can get $800k then we get a plus in the swap stakes.

I think we have a long way to go to get a competitive team together.

[P-man 11,218]

Chip isn't getting anything close to $800K.

[whatwhatsaywhat 8,042]

Completely disagree with Jack and McVeigh not being elite afl mids. Parker certainly has been this year.

I'll do Port.

[whatwhatsaywhat 8,042]

Port Adelaide

ELITE MID: Boak

MID ROTATION: Ebert, Hartlett, Robbie Gray, Wines, Kornes, White, Wingard, Polec, Cassisi

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Broadbent, Monfries, Trengove, O'Shea, Stewart, Lobbe, Impey, Carlisle, Schultz, Pittard, Hombsch, Westhoff, Young, Jonas, Logan

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Heath, Stevenson, Shaw, Moore, Colquhoun, Sam Gray, Mitchell

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Hitchcock, Neade, Redden, Ah Chee, Renouf

MORE INFO REQUIRED: Butcher, Clurey, Harvey, Byrne-Jones, Newton, Amon, Flynn, Russell

they bat deeeeeeeeeep in the middle. both broadbent and monfries could just as easily be listed as midfield rotation. they have a lot of what i'd consider good role players too.

[P-man 11,218]

Completely disagree with Jack and McVeigh not being elite afl mids. Parker certainly has been this year.

I'll do Port.

Jack is without question. Could mount a strong case for Hanneberry and McVeigh also.

Re Neade, he seems to have fallen off the map this season? He showed plenty prior to being dropped from the side. I wouldn't hate the idea of picking him up for nothing.

Butcher's name couldn't be more apt. Not good enough.

[beelzebub 19,611]

RPFC

We don't have any elite players.

Nate is good but not a match winner.

viney Tyson jkh Salem have potential

The rest are good average footballers at best.

If Chip can get $800k then we get a plus in the swap stakes.

I think we have a long way to go to get a competitive team together.

lock that in Eddie

Edited July 16, 2014 by beelzebub

[old dee 14,656]

RPFC

We don't have any elite players.

Nate is good but not a match winner.

viney Tyson jkh Salem have potential

The rest are good average footballers at best.

If Chip can get $800k then we get a plus in the swap stakes.

I think we have a long way to go to get a competitive team together.

You may never say wiser words than those above.

I would add "very" to that last line chippy

[CityDee 687]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

ELITE MID - N Jones

ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta

The next groups are:

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail

MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp

Analysis

We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams.

I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape.

But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with.

He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

17 in the top 3 groups . Probably need 23 -26 in those groups to make inroads , If the 7 in the potential group step up and a couple go from the top groups we will need 3-4 mature recruits including 1 or 2 big fish , and some great kids to get anywhere. Hopefully Roosy has the kids we have now up and going in a big way the year after next or we are doomed.

[Clint Bizkit 17,284]

I think you are overating Nathan Jones calling him an "Elite" mid! Very good yes, elite not yet!

Just my view!

I'm going to start calling you "Elaine".

[Bitter but optimistic 11,714]

Off course he is now worthy of the title elite. He racks up his 30 odd possessions, he has proven his ability to kick a clutch goal, And, most importantly he is usually one out against an overall better group of midfielders than support him.

[jumbo returns 5,851]

Crows will allow Dangerfield to walk for a high pick, Trengove and Toumpas? Sure......

About as much chance as Kennedy walking from the Swans.

Edited July 16, 2014 by jumbo returns

[titan_uranus 10,170]

The only new part, and interesting part, of this thread is the comparisons with other teams' full lists against ours.

Nicely and clearly shows how many issues are in front of us.

We don't just lack current stars, we probably lack potential stars and we definitely lack current mid-level players. Too many of our players are either in the 'time is running out' group or the 'time has run out group', and better sides have far fewer in these groups and more in the 'midfield depth' groups.

Blease, Strauss and Tapscott have had 5-6 years and are not even in that mid-level group. It's a sad indictment on where we are at and where we have to go.

[Patches O’houlihan 11,781]

Crows will allow Dangerfield to walk for a high pick, Trengove and Toumpas? Sure......

About as much chance as Kennedy walking from the Swans.

Only chance is if Dangerfield tells them he will walk as a free agent for nothing if they don't trade him, which would mean paying massive dollars, I reckon given the situation of our list we need to try and land 3-4 players who are going to make an impact rather than 1 superstar

[whatwhatsaywhat 8,042]

yup, utterly depressing.

let's compare us to another team that's been down for a long, long time...

the tigers

ELITE MID: martin, cotchin

MID ROTATION: deledio, ellis, petterd, thomas, miles, conca, vlastuin

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: grigg, riewoldt, shane edwards, houli, rance, maris, chaplin, vickery, morris

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: dylan grimes, astbury, griffiths, lennon, mcdonaugh, gordon, lloyd

NOT GOOD ENOUGH / RETIRING: newman, knights, hampson, aaron edwards, king, stephenson, foley, banfield

MORE INFO REQUIRED: dea, batchelor, helbig, mcintosh, mcbean, elton, arnot, o'hanlon, williams, darrou

a surprisingly high amount i'd put in the nqr category.

still more midfield depth than us, and more capable role players too.

[It's Time 2,696]

But it does if you have mixed categories, does this mean that players who are not positional role players, or mid rotation or elite, are necessarily not AFL calibre.......I would give you a perfect example, if we all saw Zac Dawson for the first time and knew nothing about him, most would be horrified, he is slow, can't kick, etc etc so most would say not AFL calibre but I bet Ross Lyon would disagree.........it is all relative, if you are on an AFL list you are an AFL calibre player.....another let's delist these spuds topic in another guise.....ho hum

I love your Zac Dawson example. Spot on. Still can't work out how that spud has had a career in two pretty handy teams. Obviously does his job.

[dee-luded 2,956]

I love your Zac Dawson example. Spot on. Still can't work out how that spud has had a career in two pretty handy teams. Obviously does his job.

This is imo the trouble in todays footy. when good footballers can't get a spot due to athletic types who are good at just filling space. & role playing.

the interchange & sports science has a lot to answer to.

[Redleg 21,090]

I still hold out hope for Fitzy but it is waning.

[rjay 14,878]

I love your Zac Dawson example. Spot on. Still can't work out how that spud has had a career in two pretty handy teams. Obviously does his job.

He's a pretty good player, very underrated because of a game early in his career at Hawthorn. Forget conventional footy fan logic and watch what he does.

Lyon obviously rates him.

[rpfc 15,186]

Being able to fulfil a role at AFL level is a Positional Role Player and definitely AFL Calibre/Quality player.

It's like Jetta and Pedersen establishing themselves this season.

You need these players - and they can be quite good (Franklin, Walker, Westhoff, etc) but the AFL is a midfielders league and these role player require others to get them the football. There are exceptions to every rule but the midfielders rule the world...

[Mac7 306]

I would absolutely have Jones as Elite. In fact I would have him the most under-rated midfielder in the league.

2014:

Ranked 9th in Effective Disposals Per Game

Ranked 6th in Total Effective Disposals

Ranked 9th in Total Clearances

Ranked 8th in Total Disposals

Ranked 15th in Disposals Per Game
Ranked 15th in Clearances Per Game

[spirit of norm smith 4,792]

Agree Nathan Jones is elite.

Daylight the rest in red & blue ...