The Black List

[Beats 190]

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing...

But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above.

I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.'

The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are:

I think your assessment is around the mark. I've done this a million times at home after terrible losses, our list is bad.

On my last leave I started piecing together a 'FIFA' style profile for each of our players. For those who haven't seen the game it breaks a players attributes in to 3 categories (skills, physical and mental) and gives them a current and potential rating out of 99, with 99 being the highest ever seen (eg. Howe would be 99 in speccies... if it was a category), it also gives them ratings for attributes like work rate, weak foot, X factor etc. I got through about 10 MFC players and 10 non MFC players before giving up due to it being a lengthy process, but thought that it was worth revisiting in the future... link to example profile here - http://www.futhead.com/14/career-mode/players/344/cristiano-ronaldo/

[What 18,810]

Amazing how shallow our midfleld is

Runs 5 or 6 deep

We will win twice as many games next season when Roosy adds more top level midfleld talent in the trade drat period, and Salem and JKH emerge and spend time there (and hopefully Trenners and Toumpas too)

[Beats 190]

I wouldn't call Jones an elite midfielder. If he were elite, we'd win more of the ball out of the middle.

Dangerfield is an elite midfielder.

Jones is averaging 6 clearances a game this year, =13th in the league...

He averages 2.4 centre clearances per game, =12th in the league...

Edited July 16, 2014 by Beats

[Sir Why You Little 34,762]

It's your opinion, it is not about disagreeing with your opinion, I just have a different one on a couple........unfortunately it's just yet another topic for the recidivist bashers to spew forth their normal twaddle......

hahahaha!!

Should we all just sit back and keep watching what is thrown at us every weekend Satyr?

Keep pouring good $$$ in yearly to be served up the same uncompetitive bile and not be hard on our list??

I know i won't get a straight answer. Satyr is too close to the "club"

[rjay 23,995]

It's your opinion, it is not about disagreeing with your opinion, I just have a different one on a couple........unfortunately it's just yet another topic for the recidivist bashers to spew forth their normal twaddle......

I understand that this could degenerate into the topic you are talking about but I think this is worthwhile to discuss and at least it has started well. 'rp' has set the topic up well and even if you don't agree with some it is at least well thought out. 'Thrice' has done well with his opinion on other teams lists, I hope he offers more (really interested in your thoughts on the middling clubs mentioned). I'm interested in your opinion, please share it.

[picket fence 15,448]

Amazing how shallow our midfleld is

Runs 5 or 6 deep

We will win twice as many games next season when Roosy adds more top level midfleld talent in the trade drat period, and Salem and JKH emerge and spend time there (and hopefully Trenners and Toumpas too)

Shudder..... Trenners and Toumpas in the midfield = a slower midfield than we have now!

Not the answer.

[Sir Why You Little 34,762]

Shudder..... Trenners and Toumpas in the midfield = a slower midfield than we have now!

Not the answer.

What a nightmare!

"The Horror.....The Horror..."

[daisycutter 28,661]

not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but we really don't need some fancy analysis technique to know we don't have a good enough list or enough "AFL calibre" players.

this (another) list just re-enforces what we all (well mostly) already know. it's just repackaged "common opinion"

far better to stick with other threads 1) identifying who/how many to cut and 2) our needs priorities list-wise for trading/drafting

just saying

[rpfc 27,611]

It's your opinion, it is not about disagreeing with your opinion, I just have a different one on a couple........unfortunately it's just yet another topic for the recidivist bashers to spew forth their normal twaddle......

Don't be so hard on yourself...

[boydie 653]

This thread is pointless, it's just another thread saying whose a spud and and who is gun.

Nothing new apart from the wording.

[Ted Lasso 17,039]

Another big turnover beckons at the end of the year methinks

[Satyriconhome 9,993]

This thread is pointless, it's just another thread saying whose a spud and and who is gun.

Nothing new apart from the wording.

Thanks, exactly what I was trying to say, just more fancy wording

[rpfc 27,611]

not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but we really don't need some fancy analysis technique to know we don't have a good enough list or enough "AFL calibre" players.

this (another) list just re-enforces what we all (well mostly) already know. it's just repackaged "common opinion"

far better to stick with other threads 1) identifying who/how many to cut and 2) our needs priorities list-wise for trading/drafting

just saying

The reason why I have framed it like this is to give people an idea of potential talent is not realised talent and Roos can only work with the latter. I get frustrated when posters run past the names of kids that have played a handful of games and expect them to give what they should not be asked to give.

That is why a discussion about AFL Calibre, or AFL Quality, or AFL Capable, is valuable to evaluating how well your team should be going in any given year.

We have plenty of blokes that can fulfil a role, especially down back, but what we are lacking is high end midfield talent and simply numbers that we can put through knowing they can compete competently.

[rpfc 27,611]

This thread is pointless, it's just another thread saying whose a spud and and who is gun.

Nothing new apart from the wording.

Thanks, exactly what I was trying to say, just more fancy wording

You don't have to partake in the discussion if you don't want to - my point was to essentially say that we have 28 players that are not ready to compete in the AFL at the level of even a middling club.

S-home for example was absolutely mystified a few weeks ago about the assertion that 20 players were not in the future of the club.

I can barely get 20 players that have established themselves that they will be the present of the club.

Stay, discuss and refute - or find another thread to contribute to...

[BAMF 3,787]

Thanks, exactly what I was trying to say, just more fancy wording

You have posted 5 times in this thread.

4 out of those 5 you have made it very clear you dont like the topic/subject.

Just a suggestion. But next time you come on demonland, maybe just skip this thread.

Edit: what rpfc said.

Edited July 16, 2014 by UTAH

[Satyriconhome 9,993]

The reason why I have framed it like this is to give people an idea of potential talent is not realised talent and Roos can only work with the latter. I get frustrated when posters run past the names of kids that have played a handful of games and expect them to give what they should not be asked to give.

That is why a discussion about AFL Calibre, or AFL Quality, or AFL Capable, is valuable to evaluating how well your team should be going in any given year.

We have plenty of blokes that can fulfil a role, especially down back, but what we are lacking is high end midfield talent and simply numbers that we can put through knowing they can compete competently.

Yes but the evaluations will be different because each poster will have players in different categories, we are going as well as I expected us to be going this year, this mini slump included, I know where the list is, and so does Roos, I don't need analysis to understand where we are, because I have been playing or watching footy for nearly forty years now

The only thing I don't do is bag the players, I have never played at AFL level so I have absolutely no idea what is required to reach and maintain that level, and if we have players who can't reach the level required, they will be moved on, it happens every year

[Satyriconhome 9,993]

You have posted 5 times in this thread.

4 out of those 5 you have made it very clear you dont like the topic/subject.

Just a suggestion. But next time you come on demonland, maybe just skip this thread.

Edit: what rpfc said.

No I am putting my reasons why, I actually thought rpfc had thought out his post really well, but to me it was just approaching the same old topic from a different angle

[old dee 22,966]

Ignore the negatives rpfc

I think it is a good thread and list.

To all those who run the thread down.

Use your democratic right don't comment on the thread if you think it worthless

[Machsy 2,858]

But it does if you have mixed categories, does this mean that players who are not positional role players, or mid rotation or elite, are necessarily not AFL calibre.......I would give you a perfect example, if we all saw Zac Dawson for the first time and knew nothing about him, most would be horrified, he is slow, can't kick, etc etc so most would say not AFL calibre but I bet Ross Lyon would disagree.........it is all relative, if you are on an AFL list you are an AFL calibre player.....another let's delist these spuds topic in another guise.....ho hum

Thanks Saty, you've had your say.

You don't now need to haunt this thread, shutting down any discussion because its distasteful to you.

[dpositive 1,557]

I think your assessment is around the mark. I've done this a million times at home after terrible losses, our list is bad.

On my last leave I started piecing together a 'FIFA' style profile for each of our players. For those who haven't seen the game it breaks a players attributes in to 3 categories (skills, physical and mental) and gives them a current and potential rating out of 99, with 99 being the highest ever seen (eg. Howe would be 99 in speccies... if it was a category), it also gives them ratings for attributes like work rate, weak foot, X factor etc. I got through about 10 MFC players and 10 non MFC players before giving up due to it being a lengthy process, but thought that it was worth revisiting in the future... link to example profile here - http://www.futhead.com/14/career-mode/players/344/cristiano-ronaldo/

Wow

This looks like a really intense analysis device. Hope the coaching team is already analysing our players to this depth.

I would like to see your results on the ten coz I like your rigour.

The advantage with a tool like this spread across a large number of opinions is that it can have some statistical value as it would iron out subjective bias. But It would have to be a large sample.

Also the unknown known is that we dont know how the coach would use this objective response or how fellow players impact . eg Messi is acknowledged at the top level in every aspect of their game but the coach and his fellow players seemed to ignore his presence most of the final he was ineffectual.

[dpositive 1,557]

I think your assessment is around the mark. I've done this a million times at home after terrible losses, our list is bad.

On my last leave I started piecing together a 'FIFA' style profile for each of our players. For those who haven't seen the game it breaks a players attributes in to 3 categories (skills, physical and mental) and gives them a current and potential rating out of 99, with 99 being the highest ever seen (eg. Howe would be 99 in speccies... if it was a category), it also gives them ratings for attributes like work rate, weak foot, X factor etc. I got through about 10 MFC players and 10 non MFC players before giving up due to it being a lengthy process, but thought that it was worth revisiting in the future... link to example profile here - http://www.futhead.com/14/career-mode/players/344/cristiano-ronaldo/

Wow

This looks like a really intense analysis device. Hope the coaching team is already analysing our players to this depth.

I would like to see your results on the ten coz I like your rigour.

The advantage with a tool like this spread across a large number of opinions is that it can have some statistical value as it would iron out subjective bias. But It would have to be a large sample.

Also the unknown known is that we dont know how the coach would use this objective response or how fellow players impact . eg Messi is acknowledged at the top level in every aspect of their game but the coach and his fellow players seemed to ignore his presence most of the final he was ineffectual.

[Maggot 1977 263]

What a nightmare!

"The Horror.....The Horror..."

Watershed 2015 season for both of these 2 blokes IMO !! There is a real possibility that both would be put on the trade table at the end of the year. Package them both together in a deal to send the back to SA and a top round pick for Dangerfield.

[P-man 13,276]

Agree for the most part.

Favourable on M Jones. For me he slips down to "Potential AFL Calibre" at best, and at his age I'd say that's perilously close to not good enough.

Strauss, Blease and maybe Tapscott are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in the "More Info Required" category. Have suffered injuries, poor development etc. Need at least the rest of the season but preferably the next as well to determine where they absolutely sit in the scheme of things.

Grimes for me has been a major disappointment and has slipped to being on the periphery.

Whether Jones is elite or A grade isn't a critical issue for this exercise. He's top of the pile and one of the top 10-20 mids in the league, that's enough.

It does demonstrate the extent of work remaining. Another couple of seasons away from having what could be deemed a healthy list.

[Thrice 216]

Richmond

ELITE MID: Deledio, Cotchin,

MID ROTATION: Martin, Ellis, Grigg, Thomas, Jackson, Conca, Foley, Miles

POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER: Newman (Just - very close to Not Good Enough on this season's output), Grimes, Riewoldt, Edwards, Batchelor, Petterd, Houli, Rance, Maric, Chaplin,

---

POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE: Dea, Astbury, Hampson, Griffiths, Vickery (still), Vlastuin, Lennon, Morris

NOT GOOD ENOUGH: Knights, Edwards, King, Stephenson, Helbig, Arnot, Banfield

MORE INFO REQUIRED: McIntosh, McBean, McDonough, Gordon, Lloyd, Elton, O'Hanlon, Williams, Darrou

---

2 Elite mids, with Martin close - although you probably wouldn't call any of them top 20 on this year's output. They're pretty strong in the midfield, which we knew, but bare at the bookends. 19 AFL Calibre players, with several of their talls I would only consider in the Potential category still.

Quite a few not good enoughs compared to Pies and Hawks - there's probably a few not good enough in the more info category, but I'm not as familiar with them as our list so I'm reluctant to make the call.

---

Whilst Saty was poo-pooing the thread; he makes a good point about the disparity in the Positional Role Player Category. Compare Roughead and Birchall, who I would consider Elite in their particualr postions, to the names that appear in Richmond's list. Given my druthers I'd have had all Elites in one category and put those guys there - but I didn't have the forsight to create the thread so I can't really complain .

---

Edit - thanks P-man for pointing out Miles. Yes, he makes it.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Thrice

[P-man 13,276]

Thrice - agree, but you're never going to get the categories in an exercise like this absolutely perfect so it works as a rough guide.

Incidentally, you left out Anthony Miles in Richmond's analysis, who looks the goods (averaging 26 disposals). If Tyson makes the grade for us then Miles does for them.