Jack Watts - More Discussion (for those who haven't had enough)

[sue 8,430]

With all due respect Sue youre advocating that Watts can pick Lotto number or read Tea leaves if hes able to so accurately foretell the immediate future. What that really smacks of is the DGAF's

Fair dinkum players will ALWAYS try even when seemingly futile for it tells not only his team mates that hes prepared to put in 100% but conveys the same to the opposition. During that game it would have been obvious to anyone within cooee of Watts ( as a Freo player ) that he ( JW ) wasnt really interested in a contest.

GAME OVER

You can call GAME OVER though I'm not sure what game you think I was playing.

Even most Watts-haters concede he is good at reading the play. That includes knowing when you are effectively out of the contest. Your tea-leaf reading/Lotto number analogy is wrong.

I agree, no matter how pointless otherwise, throwing yourself in can inspire your teammates etc and may be the right thing to do at every chance. As I said, Watts' attitude in general looks bad . But I think your hatred of Watts clouds your reading of any such post - your sensitive nose twitches to alert you that something just may be a bit pro-Watts and away you go.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Sue..was referring to Watts's game. (over)

Reading and DOING are two vastly different things. reading provides you with the knowledge aspect of what you might want want to do in respect to the play. You still need to WANT to do that. He seems half hearted often. Now thats just not a one off impression is it ?

Edited August 19, 2013 by belzebub59

[monoccular 16,064]

....... With Hogan, Dawes and Clark up forward, thats 3 big tough blokes.....

This seems to be a recurring thread from many posters.

Fact is that there is no certainty that these three will ever play in the one team. Clark and Dawes are on our list this year and have they played together once?

IF we can get the three together, AND get some delivery from upfield THEN we MAY be a threat.

AND, IF JW is prepared to put in and play as a winger (not a whinger) or a HBF then he MAY be worth hanging on to. But (didn't see the interview) it sounds as if he won't accept a role of responsibility at MFC in which case we would be better off without him, and with a reasonable trade to boot.

Every player must take responsibility for the progress of the club, no exceptions.

[sue 8,430]

Sue..was referring to Watts's game. (over)

Reading and DOING are two vastly different things. reading provides you with the knowledge aspect of what you might want want to do in respect to the play. You still need to WANT to do that. He seems half hearted often. Now thats just not a one off impression is it ?

I agree. But why can't you acknowledge that an element of Watts' behaviour may be that because he can read the play, he can see that he can't influence the play and concludes it may not be worth doing anything. I'm not saying it explains all his behaviour, nor excuses it, just that he may sometimes look worse than he is. Just saying.

[P-man 13,168]

I agree. But why can't you acknowledge that an element of Watts' behaviour may be that because he can read the play, he can see that he can't influence the play and concludes it may not be worth doing anything. I'm not saying it explains all his behaviour, nor excuses it, just that he may sometimes look worse than he is. Just saying.

I get what you're saying but it doesn't excuse him AT ALL imo. Whether or not he can make a difference to the play is neither here no there. Why do players put in clearly futile chases? Demonstration of effort to their teammates.

And in most situations, it is application of pressure, no matter how futile, that leads to opposition mistakes.

[sue 8,430]

I get what you're saying but it doesn't excuse him AT ALL imo. Whether or not he can make a difference to the play is neither here no there. Why do players put in clearly futile chases? Demonstration of effort to their teammates.

And in most situations, it is application of pressure, no matter how futile, that leads to opposition mistakes.

I agree.

[beelzebub 22,225]

I agree. But why can't you acknowledge that an element of Watts' behaviour may be that because he can read the play, he can see that he can't influence the play and concludes it may not be worth doing anything. I'm not saying it explains all his behaviour, nor excuses it, just that he may sometimes look worse than he is. Just saying.

Why...because I think it only goes to a cop out. There are those that would still try, despite 'knowing' the futility .it goes back to my previous assertion that to not do so simply telegraphs to all and sundry "Im a lazy shlt"

Why..Because , again, I disagree thats its "not worth doing anything" Its ALWAYS worth doing something and when someones paying you 100's of 1000's to do just that well you better bloody do it in my book.

in a game like footy, even basket ball and the like a lot of the game is in the space between effort and second efforts. Its that unrelenting pressure that can get to an opposition. They just KNOW that you wont give it up easily nor let them play their game easily. They have to earn every metre every possession everything, everytime.

pressure ...pressure pressure. its what you do ( well, should do )

[sue 8,430]

Why...because I think it only goes to a cop out. There are those that would still try, despite 'knowing' the futility .it goes back to my previous assertion that to not do so simply telegraphs to all and sundry "Im a lazy shlt"

Why..Because , again, I disagree thats its "not worth doing anything" Its ALWAYS worth doing something and when someones paying you 100's of 1000's to do just that well you better bloody do it in my book.

in a game like footy, even basket ball and the like a lot of the game is in the space between effort and second efforts. Its that unrelenting pressure that can get to an opposition. They just KNOW that you wont give it up easily nor let them play their game easily. They have to earn every metre every possession everything, everytime.

pressure ...pressure pressure. its what you do ( well, should do )

You seem to be incapable of seeing my point. I agree with everything you say but can still state what I did in my original post, ie that Watts' play-reading ability may cause him to look worse than he is. That doesn't mean what he generally does is acceptable or excusable. You conclude that that is just a 'cop out' to excuse his general lack of endeavour. It is not.

[Born to Run 204]

This seems to be a recurring thread from many posters.

Fact is that there is no certainty that these three will ever play in the one team. Clark and Dawes are on our list this year and have they played together once?

IF we can get the three together, AND get some delivery from upfield THEN we MAY be a threat.

AND, IF JW is prepared to put in and play as a winger (not a whinger) or a HBF then he MAY be worth hanging on to. But (didn't see the interview) it sounds as if he won't accept a role of responsibility at MFC in which case we would be better off without him, and with a reasonable trade to boot.

Every player must take responsibility for the progress of the club, no exceptions.

I agree with this. Watts is a Jack Gunston style forward. He needs blokes around him to make him a star.

[DemonOX 8,530]

We can not let him go.

He needs a coach who can coach not a ferking trainee which we have had the last two times.

I am very confident he will turn it around when the new EXPERIENCED coach is on board.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Sue I understand your words.. I refute that this is the case.

[sue 8,430]

Sue I understand your words.. I refute that this is the case.

Fine. It is a reasonable position to argue that the play-reading effect I raised is not real (or real but inconsequential).

[Goodvibes 3,596]

And what percentage are dumb arse posts that don't actually advance the discussion/debate at all.

I have spoken to three opposition coaches and they've all stated that Sylvia is the one MFC player they respect/fear.

In 'fact', listen to the Nathan Jones interview on the official website to see who's been getting the tag in recent weeks.

But only do so if you actually like hearing the facts.

Sorry Ron, missed this post. Sorry to hijack your Colin Sylvia claim in the Jack Watts thread. I'm just a little tired (as I've stated before) of the black and white views of posters here. There is never any grey. To quote BH, I like to use my eyes. Sylvia has never worked hard enough, is most often second to the ball and displays a growing propensity to turn it over with indiscriminate kicking. If I was coaching Melbourne I'd put my work into Jones and Viney. I'd attempt to drag Garland away from the corridor. I'd expose Terlich by dragging him close to goal and run our inexperienced ruck (whether it be Gawn, Fitzpatrick or Spencer) into the ground. I'd load my half backline with my best runners and kickers and wait for the inevitable error to come. But most probably I'd just back my 22 to beat the Melbourne 22 because in terms of discipline, talent and experience there would be an obvious gulf. And in the unlikely 1 in 20 game event whereby Melbourne chose my team to be the opponent on the rare day it "comes to play" I might spend 5 seconds thinking about what to do about Colin Sylvia if he gets on the end of a few thanks to the hard work of Jones, Viney and McKenzie.

Anyway, Jack Watts. Jack has helped me re-evaluate the way I rank players. I used to rank them based on skill, discipline, courage and passion. Now I rank them in the reverse order. I hate how people misuse the word tragedy but the drafting of Jack Watts at pick one has been the footballing equivalent of exactly that. I've seen enough.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Fine. It is a reasonable position to argue that the play-reading effect I raised is not real (or real but inconsequential).

Its actually a very interesting conundrum.

Talented , skillful player. He reads play very well. His spacial awareness would be at the top end at the club. This then , of a sort, presents a paradox ( for mine ) If yore really really good at interpreting the path of the ball or the likely path of a player with the ball then you jump ahead ( in a fashion ) and be where he doesnt want you. In a more mundane workmanlike fashion this is what a lot of close in practice is about, i.e reading the player and knowing ( best probability ) what the options for movement are and the likely ( possible ) counter efforts at your disposal. if youre really good ( bordering psychic lol ) you make life a merry hell for your opposition. Taggers do this as their daily bread and butter, they practically ARE their opponent.

Watts is good at reading the ball. He gets himself to the right spot a lot of the time. Where he falls down is if too many others have too. He is too easily 'taken out ' That is he fails to hold his ground very well. If he is 2nd or 3rd up to a contest ( big IF there btw ) he could , like a good chess player . get to where he can damage the opposition or indeed take control of the ball but invariably this requires big time man on man contact, a battle of determinations more than merely wills. You have to be prepared to put body in the way and if so a player can force a spill or create a turnover.

If Jack could develop a bit of Mongrel ( word of the day apparently lol ) and embrace the art of the argy bargy he would be a fantastic player. He seems to have no appetite for this. he can see the way of the ball often but doesnt use it, he stalls, he baulks at the next step. Im not sure whether hes trying to play footy on some higher cerebal plain or hes just a bit gun shy. Either way the result is what we see today... Ineffectual and unacceptable.

[Earl Hood 5,789]

I have been a patient fan but 5 years in I think it is time to part ways. JW is now a potential problem in the ranks. No passion, doesn't want to be here. Lets play him forward for the next two games and try to build up his currency for a trade.

For heavens sake yet another high draft pick burnt. I just don't believe how we have stuffed up our drafting over 5 years. Selecting kids with these things in common time and time again, no leadership potential, no physical presence and no appetite for a contest. You could not have achieved this level of failure even if you had delibetely set out to do it.

[DeeSpencer 23,126]

Lyon's defense of him on FC is rubbish. "He started ok then tired"

I'm with Matty Lloyd 110%. Called both of those incidents they just showed when I was watching the game as been complete rubbish.

I can only imagine what Derm Brereton would say about a Hawk doing the same or Tony Shaw about a pie. They'd probably have the guts to call a spade a spade or in this case a spud a spud.

Edited August 19, 2013 by the master

[Sir Why You Little 34,443]

Lyon's defense of him on FC is rubbish. "He started ok then tired"

I'm with Matty Lloyd 110%. Called both of those incidents they just showed when I was watching the game as been complete rubbish.

I can only imagine what Derm Brereton would say about a Hawk doing the same or Tony Shaw about a pie. They'd probably have the guts to call a spade a spade or in this case a spud a spud.

This is where the new President must come in...This is where the culture starts.

[Earl Hood 5,789]

Lyon's defense of him on FC is rubbish. "He started ok then tired"

I'm with Matty Lloyd 110%. Called both of those incidents they just showed when I was watching the game as been complete rubbish.

I can only imagine what Derm Brereton would say about a Hawk doing the same or Tony Shaw about a pie. They'd probably have the guts to call a spade a spade or in this case a spud a spud.

I was sitting above this incident on Sunday. At the time I was stunned at the lack of effort by Jack but thought well there were two other demon players there. But he was in a position to intervene but chose not to. Why?

It reminded me of when I played second rate suburban footy some years ago and did something very similar but worse where I failed to tackle a player running toward goal. I was dragged immediately and dropped the next week. Why did I do it? At the time I was not there mentally, I was not thinking about the game at all, I was somewhere else. This indicates to me where Jack's mind was, not on the game, more likely thinking about his comments on the footy show and the backlash since. But this is of his own making.

[dees189227 10,768]

Im not sure Watts could handle a rocket spray if Eade became coach. It may upset him

Edited August 19, 2013 by dees189227

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,078]

We cannot afford to keep watts for mine. Trade him while someone still thinks he will be a star.

[Real Demon 232]

Playing with the same intensity Scully did before he jumped ship.............playing simply not to get hurt.

He isn't stupid Jack, and would know what he wants to do................absolutely gone IMO.

[Sir Why You Little 34,443]

We cannot afford to keep watts for mine. Trade him while someone still thinks he will be a star.

Still think we should wait until a senior coach has been in his ear.....

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,089]

We cannot afford to keep watts for mine. Trade him while someone still thinks he will be a star.

Agree... I've backed and defended him since he arrived, but watching him closely live his heart is not in it. One of few players with currency, trade for a midfielder now before he becomes another 10 year col Sylvia tease.

[DeeSpencer 23,126]

Still think we should wait until a senior coach has been in his ear.....

neil Craig - who was apparently Watts' mentor because Neeld treated him poorly got in his ear and we got a few good weeks until the North game and ever since we've been served trash from Watts.

The common denominator is that when the team plays well Watts gets on the end of things. When the team struggles he is inept.

If Craig isn't senior enough I don't know who is!

[felixdacat 459]

Recently Jack Watts is missing any form of mongrel in his game . Some of the places I grew up in in NQ and NT in the 80s-90s have a way of testing you as a young fella to see what your made of and at some point in your life you have to go toe to toe with someone. The fight happens, how you handle yourself and the ability to take a beating or give a beating is on show and afterwards you maybe sitting down laughing with your opponent and having a beer. But the point is everyone knows what type of person you are from that point forward and what you are capable of.

Jack Watts recently seems to be a playing like he is talking a good game, he seems a nice enough bloke,but, when the gloves are off and its time fight he will be the bloke at the back shouting hold me back, hold me back. As a friend of mine once said about another friend of mine on there first ever meeting. " Yeah he seems a nice enough guy?! But I think I am going to have to punch him in the head and then sit down and have a drink with him to see what he really like, You know NT Way!"

Now I am not saying someone should give Jack Watts a beat down what I am saying is Jack needs to start showing whether he is going to fight for his team mates and this club or is he going to stand on the outside of the mob shouting Fight! Fight! Fight! If he is not showing the determination and mongrel then he should be an option for Trade.

I personally would like for him to stay but as the new president said if your not ruthless about improving and ruthless about winning at all cost then.

P.s Winning at all cost does not mean taking shortcuts ala Essendon.